no need for clearance

EdFred said:
HE.

WASN'T.

TAXIING.

Do people not read?!?!?!?
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So the video narration and graphic must be way off. It would have been less confusing without the video.
 
So I'm confused:
Can we take off inside Bravo without a clearance now, or...?
 
Whoever did the terrible job making and uploading that video should get a phone number. Are there phone numbers for bad YouTubers? There should be.
 
He was just flying the Han Solo 8R departure.
 
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Llewtrah381 said:
Yeah, the 2nd controller input cited above gives a very different picture than how the video was edited.

The 8L controller said "cross 8L, hold short 8R, no delay" but he read back "cross 8L, 8R no delay". Seems to me he missed the "hold short" and thought he was supposed to take off 8R no delay. If anything, maybe the 8L controller's phrasing would have been better as "cross 8L no delay, hold short 8R". Or at least she could have come back with "confirm hold short 8R".
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Listening again, at about 2:00 the pilot confirms this: “Did you get a takeoff clearance?” - “uh - I thought when she said ‘no delay’…” - “Yeah - that was for crossing 8L”
 
RyanB said:
Yikes... I’d imagine it’s situations like these that make Bravo airports less willing to accommodate us little guys.
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I don't know about this. In the past week I have flown my homebuilt aircraft thru three Bravos - Phoenix, Houston and New Orleans. In each case I told them I was unfamiliar with the area on initial call up. In all cases the controllers went out of their way to help me. They gave me vectors when I asked and even spoke slower to make sure I understood the instructions. I really appreciated the way they helped me.

I guess it depends on the specific controller but I got a series of good ones, that's for sure.
 
Lndwarrior said:
I don't know about this. In the past week I have flown my homebuilt aircraft thru three Bravos - Phoenix, Houston and New Orleans. In each case I told them I was unfamiliar with the area on initial call up. In all cases the controllers went out of their way to help me. They gave me vectors when I asked and even spoke slower to make sure I understood the instructions. I really appreciated the way they helped me.

I guess it depends on the specific controller but I got a series of good ones, that's for sure.
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Since the pandemic its been a lot easier. A lot of Class B's were ghost towns early on, although that is quickly changing.
 
Llewtrah381 said:
Listening again, at about 2:00 the pilot confirms this: “Did you get a takeoff clearance?” - “uh - I thought when she said ‘no delay’…” - “Yeah - that was for crossing 8L”
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That's an interesting excuse he came up with. The only thing that means cleared for takeoff is "cleared for takeoff". And a double yellow is a taxiway edge marking. Dunno why some pilots have such trouble with basics.
 
dmspilot said:
That's an interesting excuse he came up with. The only thing that means cleared for takeoff is "cleared for takeoff". And a double yellow is a taxiway edge marking. Dunno why some pilots have such trouble with basics.
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Easy, task saturation. Under stress your mind isn't able to comprehend and manage all the information coming at it. First word in human error is human.
 
midwestpa24 said:
Easy, task saturation. Under stress your mind isn't able to comprehend and manage all the information coming at it. First word in human error is human.
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The pilot did not sound task saturated. And there didn't sound like there was enough going on to be saturated about, But if so, task saturation on the ground when you can simply stop wouldn't seem to bode well for success in the air,

Maybe I need to listen to the unedited audio.
 
midlifeflyer said:
The pilot did not sound task saturated. And there didn't sound like there was enough going on to be saturated about, But if so, task saturation on the ground when you can simply stop wouldn't seem to bode well for success in the air,

Maybe I need to listen to the unedited audio.
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Being at a Class B airport can be stressful enough, especially if you've never done it before. Other traffic, other ATC chatter that may not be on the YouTube video. Multiple frequency changes. Very easy to get task saturated.
 
midwestpa24 said:
Being at a Class B airport can be stressful enough, especially if you've never done it before. Other traffic, other ATC chatter that may not be on the YouTube video. Multiple frequency changes. Very easy to get task saturated.
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I guess we disagree. As far as I can tell these were simple instructions. The pilot and the first controller both made a mistake. The pilot didn't read back the instruction to hold short of 8R and the controller did not catch the failure to read back the hold short.
I can think of a number of reasons for the pilot's innocent error. Perhaps he simply misheard it. Or perhaps had never been to an airport with parallel runways where he was told to cross one and hold short of another (I've gotten instructions like that at Class C and even D) and unfamiliarity can lead to confusion. And maybe even the stress of being at a class B if it were the first time. Plenty of possible reasons for the error. But, sorry, no. Maybe all we are disagreeing on is definitions, but I don't buy a pilot who has been through the pace of instrument training being "task saturated" by an instruction taxi via the parallel taxiway and hold short (an instruction basic to the smallest towered airports, followed by "cross 8L without delay. Hold short of 8R."
 
midlifeflyer said:
I guess we disagree. As far as I can tell these were simple instructions. The pilot and the first controller both made a mistake. The pilot didn't read back the instruction to hold short of 8R and the controller did not catch the failure to read back the hold short.
I can think of a number of reasons for the pilot's innocent error. Perhaps he simply misheard it. Or perhaps had never been to an airport with parallel runways where he was told to cross one and hold short of another (I've gotten instructions like that at Class C and even D) and unfamiliarity can lead to confusion. And maybe even the stress of being at a class B if it were the first time. Plenty of possible reasons for the error. But, sorry, no. Maybe all we are disagreeing on is definitions, but I don't buy a pilot who has been through the pace of instrument training being "task saturated" by an instruction taxi via the parallel taxiway and hold short (an instruction basic to the smallest towered airports, followed by "cross 8L without delay. Hold short of 8R."
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I'm not disagreeing with you or asking you to buy anything, the pilot screwed up. He never heard the magic "Cleared to Takeoff", and never read back "Cleared to Takeoff". Period. All I'm saying is mistakes can and do happen. Just like the controller not catching the failure to short 8R. All I'm offering is a possible explanation why a pilot could make this mistake. He's not the first. Heck if you watch VASA's YouTube channel, I believe there was one recently of an airline pilot making a similar mistake.

And trust me, I know some instrument rated pilots that are no better talking to ATC than some student pilots are. The instrument rating does not guarantee someone is ready for the world of a busy Class B airport.
 
Was flying out of the salt lake bravo today on a flight review with a cfi. On returning someone was doing things very differently than the controller expected and he was clearly exacerbated. Like heading in wrong directions, etc.

My cfi commented that he was glad we were doing things right to avoid any static.

If the pilot did not read back cleared for takeoff r/w xx that’s gonna be on him.
 
I am more surprised to hear a GA plane taking off at Hartsfield. Was it like 3am or something? Must have been dead there.
 
Cleared For Takeoff is a phrase that exists for a reason. Indeed, the whole reason we only say "departure" until actually getting a takeoff clearance is to avoid any confusion over when you get to take the runway. While the controller's instructions may have been a little murky, magic words are magic words for a reason.

guzziguy said:
So I'm confused:
Can we take off inside Bravo without a clearance now, or...?
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Depends. Are you 1NR?

scarcherpilot said:
I am more surprised to hear a GA plane taking off at Hartsfield. Was it like 3am or something? Must have been dead there.
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It happens. Martin Pauly took his Bonanza in there. Premier1Driver took his Premier in, which is still GA.
 
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