No fuel at my airport?!

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thehulk06

Pre-takeoff checklist
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Thehulk06
Well, I was fighting a strong headwind so I kept the power around 80% and my fuel burn shows that.

I plan on draining the left over fuel from my tanks and consolidating the fuel into 1 tank to see exactly how much I have because I'm low and the field I landed at doesn't have fuel. There is a field about 20 minutes south which would require only a few gallons to get the but I don't like cutting it close.

My question is, if after I consolidate the fuel and I don't have enough to spare comfortably could I use 4-5 gallons of 93 octane even though it has ethanol in it? My 235 is rated for mogas.

If not I'll just drive down to the field that has fuel with 2 five gallon jugs and come back. Would rather not do that if I didn't have to.


Thanks for the help.
 
How much gas do you have? What does the fuel management system say you have?

I don't think a little gas with Ethanol is going to be an issue, but I would also get it out of the tank as fast as I could as well You don't want that stuff sitting in your systems.

IF it comes to it, put 5 gal of mogas in, fly to the 100LL location and put in as much AVGAS as you can.
 
just one question: how will you respond to the accident investigators after the engine either runs out of gas or vapor locks?

remember minimum fuel requirements and conform with the regs on fuel quality
 
Unless you are willing to take a chance like Daniel Bernath, driving to get more fuel seems to be the best option.
 
It says I have about 15 gallons. Spread throughout 4 tanks.

Placard for what? It says 80/87 octane.

Engine dies or vapor locks? From what? That's the whole idea, not running out of gas and meeting my requirements for fuel on board, as my requirements are much higher then FAA. Plus my airplane has the mogas stc.

Ethanol is fine for the engine, just not great for rubber components. Which is why I'm asking if 4-5 gallons to supplement what fuel I already have would hurt my system.
 
thehulk06 said:
Ethanol is fine for the engine, just not great for rubber components. Which is why I'm asking if 4-5 gallons to supplement what fuel I already have would hurt my system.
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And where do you think those rubber components are? The carbs don't handle ethanol well at all.

Absent the STC for mogas, you don't know if your plane has been tested for using that. Not every plane that burns 80 octane can use mogas.

Get a couple of fuel cans and put enough 100LL to get somewhere with fuel.
 
thehulk06 said:
It says I have about 15 gallons. Spread throughout 4 tanks.

Placard for what? It says 80/87 octane.

Engine dies or vapor locks? From what? That's the whole idea, not running out of gas and meeting my requirements for fuel on board, as my requirements are much higher then FAA. Plus my airplane has the mogas stc.

Ethanol is fine for the engine, just not great for rubber components. Which is why I'm asking if 4-5 gallons to supplement what fuel I already have would hurt my system.
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Look at my post again. I typed "runs out of gas" not "engine dies". The questions which would be asked are "did you have the required VFR reserves when you departed?" and "how did you determine and measure the required volume?"

Now look up the vapor pressure of ethanol and compare that to avgas. Now research the expected changes in vapor pressure of a mixture.

I know you like to argue. Please continue to argue that you are right all the while ignoring the simple and correct solution.
 
Clark1961 said:
Look at my post again. I typed "runs out of gas" not "engine dies". The questions which would be asked are "did you have the required VFR reserves when you departed?" and "how did you determine and measure the required volume?"

Now look up the vapor pressure of ethanol and compare that to avgas. Now research the expected changes in vapor pressure of a mixture.

I know you like to argue. Please continue to argue that you are right all the while ignoring the simple and correct solution.
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I never said run straight mogas with ethanol.

I'll add it to my 100LL. Are you saying that there is a big threat of vapor lock when mixed with 100LL?

Im talking 10-15 gallons of 100LL and 5 gallons of 93 octane. I can't tell if your being over dramatic or the threat is as huge as your making it out to be?
Also, I said I am going to sump all the tanks but one with a 5 gallon gas can. And put all the gas in one tank, so i'll know exactly how much I have. If I can get it to the tabs on my main, thats 17 gallons.
 
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thehulk06 said:
I never said run straight mogas with ethanol.

I'll add it to my 100LL. Are you saying that there is a big threat of vapor lock when mixed with 100LL?

Im talking 10-15 gallons of 100LL and 5 gallons of 93 octane.
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The vapor pressure impact of ethanol is very non-linear. As you add Ethanol the vapor pressure goes up, peaks at about 10% (If I recall correctly) then starts back down. If what you got was actually E-15 (it happens) then you mix with avgas, you could end up with a higher vapor pressure (and more chance of vapor lock) than you would with either fuel alone.

How big a risk, I can't really say.

The sensible thing would be to schlep some avgas instead of what is alleged to be E10 in your 5 gallon can.
 
You have 10 gallons min on board? Take off and get some gas.
 
Wait draining fuel out of the other tanks and consolidating into one is an option? If you can get an hour worth of fuel together in that tank and have an airport within 10 minutes or so I'd probably just do that and fly over.
 
thehulk06 said:
Well, I was fighting a strong headwind so I kept the power around 80% and my fuel burn shows that.

I plan on draining the left over fuel from my tanks and consolidating the fuel into 1 tank to see exactly how much I have because I'm low and the field I landed at doesn't have fuel. There is a field about 20 minutes south which would require only a few gallons to get the but I don't like cutting it close.

My question is, if after I consolidate the fuel and I don't have enough to spare comfortably could I use 4-5 gallons of 93 octane even though it has ethanol in it? My 235 is rated for mogas.

If not I'll just drive down to the field that has fuel with 2 five gallon jugs and come back. Would rather not do that if I didn't have to.


Thanks for the help.
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How much is the dilution? How hard to go get a can of 100LL? Do you realize you can get rid of the alcohol with water then catch the water and alcohol in a separator funnel?
 
cowman said:
Wait draining fuel out of the other tanks and consolidating into one is an option? If you can get an hour worth of fuel together in that tank and have an airport within 10 minutes or so I'd probably just do that and fly over.
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That's my first and best option.

Draining them now.
 
Why didn't you plan for the headwind and stop for fuel before you got to such a low level state?

What you state in the OP does not sound like the best chain of decision making and risk management.
 
I say take off. If you run out of gas use the plane manufacture for your stupidly.
Bite the bullet and drive and get avgas.
 
AggieMike88 said:
Why didn't you plan for the headwind and stop for fuel before you got to such a low level state?

What you state in the OP does not sound like the best chain of decision making and risk management.
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I did plan. I took off with 50 gallons and expected to have 20+ Gallons left.

It's looking like I'll have around 22 gallons and I was worried for nothing.


It's just 20 gallons separated by 4 tanks makes it look pretty low. And to make it more difficult to judge my fuel I did what Frankenkota and Jay suggested, 15 minutes per tank and switch so they all seemed low to me because I normally just run each tank close to dry.

Ah well live and learn.


Ron22, thanks for the constructive criticism. Not sure how you don't get banned for talking to me like that. But this question was not whether I should take off with a questionable amount of fuel as I would not of done that. It was if I could safely run a little ethanol.....
 
I don't think it's crazy to worth about that. I recently was told about someone around this area with a Cherokee 6 that also had 4 tanks and enough fuel. Supposedly he ran a tank dry and switched to one with fuel, the engine didn't restart until right after the wheels touched down on a frozen lake.... then the ice broke and the airplane went through. I guess he made it out alive to tell the story.

I can't imagine how embarrassed and/or angry I'd be after that... obviously after being happy to have survived.
 
Drive out and get some real a gas. We all know stuff happens.
 
Drained 3 and filled one and I'm about 3-4 inches shy of the top on my main tank.

I over worry about some things but oh well.
 
For future reference, you can run each and every tank dry in flight, and switch over to another tank. Fuel systems are designed this way, many people don't like to do it, but I get all my fuel out of my aux tank that way.

Never put Ethanol fuel in an aircraft. The Ethanol will swell rubber seals and gaskets. Some planes tolerate it better than others, but the age of the GA fleet argues against any introduction of Ethanol.
 
Next time I'd explore all of my options before turning to this site. It seems all you got was sarcasm mixed with a bit of hostility.

With my job, if worst comes to worst, I always go with the sure thing - drive over and pick up some gas.
 
thehulk06 said:
Ron22, thanks for the constructive criticism. Not sure how you don't get banned for talking to me like that. But this question was not whether I should take off with a questionable amount of fuel as I would not of done that. It was if I could safely run a little ethanol.....
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It was a joke. Sorry it was missing the :D
I was referring to the case with Daniel Bernath.
 
ron22 said:
It was a joke. Sorry it was missing the :D
I was referring to the case with Daniel Bernath.
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No worries, I was sort of joking also. Was referring to the ban hammer being handed out rather generously lately for the smallest things.


I don't mind a little cage rattling, I wanted an answer and got it.... Although I had to wade through some bs to get it. That's usual now days.
 
thehulk06 said:
My question is, if after I consolidate the fuel and I don't have enough to spare comfortably could I use 4-5 gallons of 93 octane even though it has ethanol in it? My 235 is rated for mogas.
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You might get that far with it, but you also might later discover you rotted O-rings and seals in your fuel system in the process and that it costs a big pile of money to fix the resulting problems. I suggest that if you don't have enough gas to fly where there's avgas, get a few cans of it brought to your airplane even if that takes more time and money.
 
docmirror said:
Never put Ethanol fuel in an aircraft. The Ethanol will swell rubber seals and gaskets. Some planes tolerate it better than others, but the age of the GA fleet argues against any introduction of Ethanol.
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That's an awful broad sweeping statement that isn't true. There are planes out there that can run E10 just fine. Usually Rotax powered.
 
thehulk06 said:
I did plan. I took off with 50 gallons and expected to have 20+ Gallons left.

It's looking like I'll have around 22 gallons and I was worried for nothing.


It's just 20 gallons separated by 4 tanks makes it look pretty low. And to make it more difficult to judge my fuel I did what Frankenkota and Jay suggested, 15 minutes per tank and switch so they all seemed low to me because I normally just run each tank close to dry.

Ah well live and learn.
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Now you know why I run tanks dry rather than leaving unknown dabs and drabs
In various tanks. 15 minutes per tank keeps the plane nicely balanced but is hardly necessary.
 
Henning said:
Now you know why I run tanks dry rather than leaving unknown dabs and drabs
In various tanks. 15 minutes per tank keeps the plane nicely balanced but is hardly necessary.
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Well I did notice the plane wants to dip it's wing to the heavy side if I'm running tanks dry. I hadn't actually noticed it until everyone was like "oh mer gerd all planes want to fly in circles if you don't do the 15 minutes each tank" lol so I tried and and they were right! But it wasn't drastic and it actually didn't help my flight at all. I landed thinking I was burning about 20GPH in my Cherokee... haha.

Good times in the sky.
 
thehulk06 said:
Well I did notice the plane wants to dip it's wing to the heavy side if I'm running tanks dry. I hadn't actually noticed it until everyone was like "oh mer gerd all planes want to fly in circles if you don't do the 15 minutes each tank" lol so I tried and and they were right! But it wasn't drastic and it actually didn't help my flight at all. I landed thinking I was burning about 20GPH in my Cherokee... haha.

Good times in the sky.
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In those and the PA32 I burn the tips 30 minutes at a time until they run dry, then I switch to the mains and burn the first half out of both, then run one dry and land on the remainder in the last tank.
 
opposite. In a PA32 you run the mains dry first, leave the remaining fuel weight in the tips. That's how you avoid cracks on the top skin at the ribs.

OP, even a little ethanol is a big risk for vapor lock. I've gotten some in the pawnee by accident, didn't run very long.
 
Good to hear you have enough fuel :). I change tanks every 30 minutes personally and use a scheduled alarm on my iPad as a reminder considering fuel exhaustion in flight isn't much fun..
 
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Also can somebody explain to me how they are comfortable running the tanks dry in flight and what procedure they use specifically?
 
vdehart said:
Also can somebody explain to me how they are comfortable running the tanks dry in flight and what procedure they use specifically?
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I almost always run tanks dry in my travel air and did the same in my PA32. Having a smidgen of fuel in multiple tanks is next to useless. At the end of a long flight i want all my remaining fuel in a single tank per engine so I know where it is and I have a shot at accessing it.

The "how" is easy. When your watch says the tank is getting low, watch fuel pressure, when it fluctuates switch tanks. If the engine runs out of fuel it's no big deal, switch tanks and it will come right back on. In that case it's a good idea to retard the throttle until you get fuel so that the engine doesn't damage counterweights if it surges.
 
vdehart said:
Also can somebody explain to me how they are comfortable running the tanks dry in flight and what procedure they use specifically?
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The engine starts to stutter and stumble, I switch tanks and they come good again, pretty danged simple really. If they don't come good right away, you can hit the boost pump, but I have never had to.
 
Henning said:
The engine starts to stutter and stumble, I switch tanks and they come good again, pretty danged simple really. If they don't come good right away, you can hit the boost pump, but I have never had to.
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That is how I do it also, the engine will studded and in some instances die, turn to next fuel tank and switch boost pump on and it comes alive in a few seconds.

The one thing I'm not sure I'll ever get used to is how my ass puckers when the engine dies.... it's like leaning back in your desk chair with the lock engaged and then it POPS out and you fall back a few inches... you know your not actually falling but you body feels like you've just fallen off a cliff.....
 
JHW said:
The "how" is easy. When your watch says the tank is getting low, watch fuel pressure, when it fluctuates switch tanks.
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This is the method I use, except in my case it's the aftermarket fuel flow that's being watched. It will start swinging wildly as the line starts sucking air. The engine hasn't begun to surge yet because of the reserve in the gascolator and carb.

I try not to get to the point of engine surge, especially if I have a passenger.
 
Deakins has some pretty interesting stuff to say in FAVOR of running a tank dry.

The auxes are the only ones you can safely run dry in the Navion (if you run the main dry you are in BIG trouble). It's no big thing when one runs dry. Hit the boost pump and turn the fuel selector to a tank with fuel in it. The only real embarassing time was when I ran one dry in the middle of a procedure turn while getting my instrument training. The IO-550 in my plane has a bizarre feature that at very low power settings it returns a LOT of fuel into the main tank when running off the aux. I can fly over an hour on the aux tank at normal settings, but at low settings it will run dry in 20 minutes (though it did put 12 gallons back in the main).
 
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