No “Traffic Patterns and No Practice Approaches allowed”

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LmannyR

Pre-Flight
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Feb 14, 2014
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Luis R
KSUA
Delta airspace

Many times broadcasted on ATIS: no practice patterns, no practice approaches.
Is this normal? Is there a reg that supports this?

Odd for a small airport with a flight training schools on field.
 
I've seen it before...done for a noise abatement deal (deal with the devil if you ask me).
 
Sometimes it’s “max of 3 TnGs”. Most times, they don’t say “no practice approaches”.

I hear them ask all the time….” Are you a renter or student pilot” when calling on ground. They didn’t sound like one at all. Does it really matter? I haven’t read anything in the regs you need to let them know your “renting”. Lol. Some silly stuff I hear from there.
 
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Seen it published, seen it ignored, never seen it enforced. That’s true of a controlled airport and private/public use airport.
 
KCFO 9 saturdays a year for 2-3 hrs each, when we run a Young Eagles rally the ATIS states the rally is active and no practice approaches allowed. Part of the reason is that we’re 6 nm from KAPA which is one of the 3 busiest GA airports, and it discourages pratice approaches, so everyone comes to KCFO, including the USAF academy. Its traffic management.
 
We had a problem at the airport I used to be based on. Nearby flight school would send solo students over to our field to do t&g's. What was bad, was on Saturday mornings, there would be anywhere from 6 to 20 of them and some would fly close patterns and other would fly something bigger than what a B-52 needed. I know of several people that ran out of fuel trying to get out of there on one of those weekends. Field owner finally had a showdown with the flight school, after polite conversations about it. It got messy for a couple of more years until the school folded.
 
If it’s on the ATIS (but no where else and no NOTAM), is it regulatory? Or advisory?
 
ateamer said:
I’d say it’s advisory that tower won’t clear anyone for practice approaches and pattern work.
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I mean - I guess what I was saying, can they legally do that? Delta towers only sequence traffic. Approaches are up to the radar facility. Deltas have no right to interfere and cannot be made to assume your intentions.
 
kaiser said:
I mean - I guess what I was saying, can they legally do that? Delta towers only sequence traffic. Approaches are up to the radar facility. Deltas have no right to interfere and cannot be made to assume your intentions.
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Basic radar services for VFR aircraft include:
1. Safety alerts.
2. Traffic advisories.
3. Limited radar vectoring when requested by the pilot.
4. Sequencing at locations where procedures have been established for this purpose and/or when covered by a letter of agreement.

ATC should not provide VFR radar service for practice instrument approaches at an airport that isn’t accepting practice approaches.
 
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kaiser said:
I mean - I guess what I was saying, can they legally do that? Delta towers only sequence traffic. Approaches are up to the radar facility. Deltas have no right to interfere and cannot be made to assume your intentions.
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They can tell you to stay out or leave their airspace.
 
Clip4 said:
Basic radar services for VFR aircraft include:
1. Safety alerts.
2. Traffic advisories.
3. Limited radar vectoring when requested by the pilot.
4. Sequencing at locations where procedures have been established for this purpose and/or when covered by a letter of agreement.

ATC should not provide VFR radar service for practice instrument approaches at an airport that isn’t accepting practice approaches.
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Right. So how this would work is the delta would coordinate with the overlying radar facility and tell them not to send any practice approaches their way?
 
"No practice approaches". It's a daily announcement at KPOU for runway 6.
Runway 24 doesn't have the restriction.
 
Our D airport regularly tells pilots they can't fly the pattern. It's because they only want 3 or so at a time in the pattern, but the fact is yes, they can and do tell pilots no pattern work, no touch and goes, etc.
 
kaiser said:
Right. So how this would work is the delta would coordinate with the overlying radar facility and tell them not to send any practice approaches their way?
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On a clear day, Approach told me that they could not approve a practice approach to one of the local airports, but that they could give me an IFR clearance if I could accept one. I'm sure they wouldn't have done that if Tower had not told them "no practice approaches."
 
Shepherd said:
"No practice approaches". It's a daily announcement at KPOU for runway 6.
Runway 24 doesn't have the restriction.
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That’s because they built a hangar that blocks the view of runway 6 from the tower.
 
so approach the field, go around. Land, taxi back, depart, go a few miles away, return...repeat. Not running afoul of their rule.... and better practice anyway....because not only practicing the pattern but also including pattern entries and exits, taxiing, etc... :)
 
What exactly is a practice approach? Flying an instrument approach under VFR does not necessarily mean it is for practice, and flying it under IFR does not mean it is not for practice either.
 
kaiser said:
I mean - I guess what I was saying, can they legally do that? Delta towers only sequence traffic. Approaches are up to the radar facility. Deltas have no right to interfere and cannot be made to assume your intentions.
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It's an ATC rule. Not specific to type of facility.

4−8−11. PRACTICE APPROACHES
Except for military aircraft operating at military airfields, ensure that neither VFR nor IFR practice approaches disrupt the flow of other arriving and departing IFR or VFR aircraft. Authorize, withdraw authorization, or refuse to authorize practice approaches as traffic conditions require. Normally, approaches in progress should not be terminated.
NOTE−
The priority afforded other aircraft over practice instrument approaches is not intended to be so rigidly applied that it causes grossly inefficient application of services.
 
luvflyin said:
It's an ATC rule. Not specific to type of facility.

4−8−11. PRACTICE APPROACHES
Except for military aircraft operating at military airfields, ensure that neither VFR nor IFR practice approaches disrupt the flow of other arriving and departing IFR or VFR aircraft. Authorize, withdraw authorization, or refuse to authorize practice approaches as traffic conditions require. Normally, approaches in progress should not be terminated.
NOTE−
The priority afforded other aircraft over practice instrument approaches is not intended to be so rigidly applied that it causes grossly inefficient application of services.
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Thanks. I did not know that.
 
https://skyvector.com/airport/SUA/Witham-Field-Airport" said:
Other Remarks
  • [snip]...
  • TOUCH & GO OPNS PERMITTED MON-SAT (EXCP NEW YEARS, CHRISTMAS & THANKSGIVING) 0900 UNTIL 2 HRS PAST SS AND ARE LIMITED TO 3 OPNS PER PILOT PER DAY.
  • STOP & GO OPNS AND INTXN TKOFS STRONGLY DISCOURAGED AT ALL TIMES.
  • STAGE 1 & 2 JET OPNS STRONGLY DISCOURAGED 2300-0800.
  • PPR FOR ACFT EXCEEDING RY WT CPTY.
  • AFTER 2200 ACTVT REIL RWY 12 & 30; MIRL RWY 07/25 & 12/30- CTAF.
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The control tower is paid for and operated by Grumman Aerospace. Grumman is a major employer in that part of Florida with big DOD contracts. When they announce "no practice approaches", it is so.
 
wilkersk said:
The control tower is paid for and operated by Grumman Aerospace. Grumman is a major employer in that part of Florida with big DOD contracts. When they announce "no practice approaches", it is so.
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The tower at Stuart is operated by Robinson Aviation. Unless something changed, Grumman is in Melbourne, which is nowhere near Stuart.

Sikorsky and Pratt & Whitney are the nearest DOD contractors in the area, but Pratt has their own airport (Gwinn) in Palm Beach County. The tower doesn’t show as an FAA contract, so maybe that’s the company-operated tower referenced.

Stuart probably limits training activity due to influential NIMBYs in the community, and maybe also due to the way the flight schools in the area do things - gigantic patterns, long delays on the runway after being cleared for takeoff, horrible radio use. Maybe they just said they’re too much of a disruption to regular flight operations.
 
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ateamer said:
The tower at Stuart is operated by Robinson Aviation. Unless something changed, Grumman is in Melbourne, which is nowhere near Stuart.

Sikorsky and Pratt & Whitney are the nearest DOD contractors in the area, but Pratt has their own airport (Gwinn) in Palm Beach County. The tower doesn’t show as an FAA contract, so maybe that’s the company-operated tower referenced.

Stuart probably limits training activity due to influential NIMBYs in the community, and maybe also due to the way the flight schools in the area do things - gigantic patterns, long delays on the runway after being cleared for takeoff, horrible radio use. Maybe they just said they’re too much of a disruption to regular flight operations.
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52973230831_5947556e22_z.jpg
 
wilkersk said:
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Very interesting! Now I’m trying to learn more. Looks like even the FAA has no idea who runs the tower. One page on their site says Robinson runs it, and another page says Grumman. I suspect the Grumman is relic info, as they don’t have anything around here anymore.
 
wilkersk said:
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I wouldn't put much stock in that. They had me listed as the airport manager for like 3 years after I stepped down, and we told them over and over to change it.
 
kfmy routinely tells pilots calling in, unable tng's or practice approaches. with ATP and paragon on the field its impossible to get in and out some days. i spent 20 minutes at the hold short line the other day.
 
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