Night training

azpilot

azpilot

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azpilot
The last time I flew at night was in July of 2014. I earned my private certificate in July of 2015. I want to go get night current and be comfortable doing short flights around the Phoenix area. Does anyone have thoughts on a good first step?

Is step one, just staying in the pattern and doing a few full stop landings? Then maybe I step up to flying KCHD to KIWA and back?

I want to get to the point where I feel comfortable doing the Bravo transition over KPHX at night. I really want to be at a point where I am more than just night current, but rather night proficient.
 
whatever you're comfortable with. go with a friend, with an instructor, or go solo. the plane don't know it's night and the bravo don't change because it's night.

I also wanted to start night flying again. I flew out of RDU which can be a busy charlie and it was a non-issue. I planned and was prepared, but I didn't want to just do laps in the pattern.
 
sorry, I said go with a bud but if ur not current obviously you can't do that.
 
coloradobluesky said:
One thing you can do is start flying about a 1/2 hour before dark. Then just do touch and goes for and hour. End up doing them at night.
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That's a great idea. I was thinking of that too.
 
azpilot said:
Why? What is the reasoning behind this statement?
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Because by your admission it has been almost three years since you flew at night. I don't know how much night time you have but it is a safe bet that it isn't much more than what was required for the rating. It will be almost like starting over. Best done with an instructor or at the very least someone experienced in night flying. And a non-CFI has to be comfortable assuming the legal responsibilities of PIC.
 
azpilot said:
Why? What is the reasoning behind this statement?
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The answer for me personally, I mean. I fly gliders, and every spring I fly with an instructor a few times when glider season starts. I probably would not crash if I went alone, but it makes me feel much calmer with a pro riding along.
 
TylerSC said:
The answer for me personally, I mean. I fly gliders, and every spring I fly with an instructor a few times when glider season starts. I probably would not crash if I went alone, but it makes me feel much calmer with a pro riding along.
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Cool, thanks for the input. I hope it didn't seem like I was trying to poke you in the eye or anything. ;)

It's easy to always just take a CFI along when you feel the slightest bit uncomfortable with a situation. Part of what I want to learn is when it's appropriate, and an acceptable risk, for me to push the boundaries a little bit, and when I should be flying with an instructor. If you "always" fly with an instructor, I wonder if you are stifling some potential growth and development.

Tomorrow I actually have a checkout in a Piper Archer II that belongs to a club I just joined. I'll make a point to bring this up with the instructor I'll be flying with and get his thoughts.
 
eman1200 said:
sorry, I said go with a bud but if ur not current obviously you can't do that.
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Unless your bud is night current, in which case you can go with a bud even though you are not. You just won't be PIC. Find someone like me who needs simulated instrument time to finish his instrument rating and be his safety pilot. Go at night. Your friend is under the hood and you are looking outside and reacquiring the skills involved in avoiding illusions that lead to spatial disorientation at night and understanding where you are based on nighttime references. You can take off and land even if you're not PIC, although it's up to you and your friend to decide whether that's a good idea.

GeorgeC said:
After getting my ticket, I didn't fly at night for years. I went up once with a CFI at night (rental required night currency, so I needed a checkout) and then knocked out the night requirements for the commercial. I felt pretty proficient after that.
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That's just 10 solo night takeoffs and 10 solo night landings at airports with operating control towers and flight in the pattern, right? Or can you do the 2-hour night cross country solo even though it falls under an experience category that says "training in FAR 61.127(b)(1) areas, including..."? Honest question as I don't want to double-fly any cross-countries if I don't have to and have already logged this one.

azpilot said:
The last time I flew at night was in July of 2014. I earned my private certificate in July of 2015. I want to go get night current and be comfortable doing short flights around the Phoenix area. Does anyone have thoughts on a good first step?
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Based on those dates, your flight review is due July 31, 2017. If you're not opposed to doing it early, why not kill two birds with one stone and find a CFI to do the flight review, prefacing the discussion with wanting to work on night flying because that's an area of flying where you have self-assessed you are the weakest? As a bonus, then you won't have to do the flight review in summer conditions, which I suspect are less comfortable than spring in the Phoenix area.
 
azpilot said:
It's easy to always just take a CFI along when you feel the slightest bit uncomfortable with a situation. Part of what I want to learn is when it's appropriate, and an acceptable risk, for me to push the boundaries a little bit, and when I should be flying with an instructor. If you "always" fly with an instructor, I wonder if you are stifling some potential growth and development.
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Considering your only night experience was from when you were still a student, and it's been more than 3 years, I think an instructor is called for.
 
Agree on instructor. Also full moon helps more than you might think.
 
Idk why but I never thought landing at night was any harder than landing during the day. I just got night current a few weeks ago and I had no trouble at all. I don't think an instructor is necessary unless you really feel uncomfortable.

It varies for people...but quite frankly flying with an instructor all the time doesn't make me feel more comfortable about doing things solo..flying solo makes me more comfortable flying solo.

But sure I'd go up with an instructor if I was really nervous
 
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Azpilot
I love flying at night and do so often in the winter. The sun sets late enough in the summer in south Texas that I don't get as much time in at night. I never had any issues at night until last month. Once I finished putting the plane back together after some maintenance it was full on dark when I went outside. I really wanted to do some pattern work, could see some stars overhead, and the ASOS said it was clear, so I decided it was a good time to get in three full-stop landings.

Everything went great until I noticed I didn't see as many lights from town south of the airport as I was used to. Right as I turned down-wind I looked down at my gauges and when I looked up all the lights had gone out. There was no horizon. I'm instrument rated so I quickly switched to the gauges and noticed I was in a pretty steep bank and was pointed pretty far below the horizon.

I had no problem recovering and popped out of the thin layer of clouds a few seconds later. If I wasn't comfortable flying IFR I'm convinced I'd have made a hole in the ground. For one of the first times ever I had no sensation of being in a bank while in the clouds and no sense of any change in G-forces. I'd always been told that could happen but had never experienced it. I landed the plane and put it back in the hanger for the night. I've flown at night on two trips since then but night IFR with no warning and despite all reports to the contrary wasn't for me that night.

I could still see lights straight down while in the clouds but couldn't see anything ahead of me. If it was daylight I'd have seen the clouds. If you haven't flown at night in a long time please at least fly with someone that is current the first time. Things are different and the changes can be significant.

Gary
 
I have been in similar situations and done what others have already mentioned. On one occasion I took an instructor and also worked on some other things. On another occasion, I went up just before dark and "worked" my way into night. I live near the coast so I have also had the clouds and fog creep in on night that was forecast to be skies clear, not as bad as the other instance mentioned earlier. I find the weather aspect to be the most challenging part of night flying.
 
Got my night currency done in 0.4 hobbs time :). 2 stop and go's and a landing and I was on the way home. I usually spend more time, but when you are trying to save a dollar it can be done.
 
Caramon13 said:
Got my night currency done in 0.4 hobbs time :). 2 stop and go's and a landing and I was on the way home. I usually spend more time, but when you are trying to save a dollar it can be done.
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I did that once too! Listened to ATIS before I started up, run up on the roll and requested short approaches. I think mine was 0.4 on the hobbs also
 
The CFI is a good idea. You're in an area similar to mine, so be a MILLION percent accurate on terrain. Don't expect wind predictions to hold, they may say calm and then it gets ugly while you're airborne. Pick a route with areas that can be used for an engine out. I fly my area a lot at night and know all the roads that don't have power lines/obstructions. Be ready for a Class B transition denial, and don't run into a mountain trying to stay under the Class B veil.
 
danhagan said:
The CFI is a good idea. You're in an area similar to mine, so be a MILLION percent accurate on terrain. Don't expect wind predictions to hold, they may say calm and then it gets ugly while you're airborne. Pick a route with areas that can be used for an engine out. I fly my area a lot at night and know all the roads that don't have power lines/obstructions. Be ready for a Class B transition denial, and don't run into a mountain trying to stay under the Class B veil.
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That last part has happened fairly recently in the Phoenix area. Be careful, especially on moonless nights, and don't use any more interior lights than you need. It's a good idea to require 2000 AGL at all times except for takeoff and landing, and you can follow instrument procedures to stay off terrain.

https://www.ntsb.gov/about/employme...ev_id=20111124X85300&ntsbno=WPR12MA046&akey=1
 
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Not a big hurdle, you just need some conditioning - pick a severe clear night, with a big temp/dew point spread, and just do it. If a CFI makes you more comfortable, take one along, for sure. . .no worries.

If you intend to fly VFR at night regularly, you don't need an instrument rating, but you do need competency flying solely by reference to instruments. Do you feel like you could do a 180 on instruments, If you blunder into a cloud (or clouds)? When you feel pretty good about that, night loses some of it's threatening aspect. Easier to see traffic, less of it, and the radio is quiet(er). Engine out is engine out, and if it's dark, the odds are much worse, of course, regardless of terrain, route, or your state of grace. . .

I did punch into a cloud, VFR, at night, when I wasn't instrumented rating. I didn't just do something, I sat there, since the vis had been great, and the sky and stars had been unobstructed; popped out in 6 or 7 seconds. Might have been the only cloud within 100 miles . . .it does happen.
 
I'd say to begin with, if you feel comfortable, do some night touch and go's at your home airport. Otherwise, bring an instructor.
 
Another option is to go early, 2 hours before sunrise. Then if you feel good about it you have an hour to make your currency takeoffs and landings but you have the out of flying around until the sun comes up if things don't feel right. Going in the evening doesn't give you that out.
 
I'll take you up some night if you want. Just pay for gas. Send me a text sometime.
 
GaryV said:
Azpilot
I love flying at night and do so often in the winter. The sun sets late enough in the summer in south Texas that I don't get as much time in at night. I never had any issues at night until last month. Once I finished putting the plane back together after some maintenance it was full on dark when I went outside. I really wanted to do some pattern work, could see some stars overhead, and the ASOS said it was clear, so I decided it was a good time to get in three full-stop landings.

Everything went great until I noticed I didn't see as many lights from town south of the airport as I was used to. Right as I turned down-wind I looked down at my gauges and when I looked up all the lights had gone out. There was no horizon. I'm instrument rated so I quickly switched to the gauges and noticed I was in a pretty steep bank and was pointed pretty far below the horizon.

I had no problem recovering and popped out of the thin layer of clouds a few seconds later. If I wasn't comfortable flying IFR I'm convinced I'd have made a hole in the ground. For one of the first times ever I had no sensation of being in a bank while in the clouds and no sense of any change in G-forces. I'd always been told that could happen but had never experienced it. I landed the plane and put it back in the hanger for the night. I've flown at night on two trips since then but night IFR with no warning and despite all reports to the contrary wasn't for me that night.

I could still see lights straight down while in the clouds but couldn't see anything ahead of me. If it was daylight I'd have seen the clouds. If you haven't flown at night in a long time please at least fly with someone that is current the first time. Things are different and the changes can be significant.

Gary
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Wow! That is an incredible story. Thanks so much for sharing. Stories like this really help to remind me what it is we are actually doing when we go up flying and to remember what the risks are. I've decided that I'll go up with an instructor to get night current. You've all helped me to recognize my invulnerable attitude.
 
MAKG1 said:
That last part has happened fairly recently in the Phoenix area. Be careful, especially on moonless nights, and don't use any more interior lights than you need. It's a good idea to require 2000 AGL at all times except for takeoff and landing, and you can follow instrument procedures to stay off terrain.

https://www.ntsb.gov/about/employme...ev_id=20111124X85300&ntsbno=WPR12MA046&akey=1
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I'm very familiar with that crash. I've read all the reports. During my checkride, the examiner and I actually discussed this particular accident in detail.
 
jordane93 said:
I did that once too! Listened to ATIS before I started up, run up on the roll and requested short approaches. I think mine was 0.4 on the hobbs also
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At FRG, nighttime is the only time when that can be done.:mad:
 
I just hit 50hrs night last night. Flying KCAE-KPDK, VFR but logged 1.2 actual instrument time as well. Try to find a moonless night, and go up with an instructor just to see how dark it really gets up there. You don't want to experience that for the first time by yourself, unless you are very proficient with instrument flying.
 
azpilot said:
I'm very familiar with that crash. I've read all the reports. During my checkride, the examiner and I actually discussed this particular accident in detail.
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That's the only thing I don't have a problem with comparing my area to yours.

Flew for night currency Saturday night. Winds calm at my field. Winds 18G25 at the nearby Class C ... the same for Las Cruces and Deming. First few circuits were nice, then started getting light chop (slight shear zone) at 500 AGL, went around the pattern and then got walloped on short final on my last lap. Wind forecasts are usually wrong in the SW this time of year.
 
The first thing I did once I received my temporary PPC (other than flying home from the checkride), was to grab my instructor and ask for more night dual. Finding airports was my hardest part, not the landing. It was great. I really felt comfortable after a couple of more hours, and got checked out in a warrior to boot!!

Yes, we are talking 1985 here, so no GPS to find the airport... but the theory still stands.
 
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