Newbie Here - Seeking advice

[Bill Lumberg]

Hi all,

New to the forum and to flying. A little about me:

1) No previous pilot experience.
2) Travel coast to coast for work - Should hit ~150k-160k miles with Delta this year (all US except one trip to Europe).
3) On a plane 3 weeks a month.
4) Home airport is MEM. As you may know, they just lost their Delta hub, so I am connecting on ~80% of my trips now.
5) Have a wife and two pre-teen boys.
6) Tired of leaving Sunday night to go to the airport (I live 1 1/2 hours away from MEM, and getting back on Thursday night.) My own plane would let me be home more.

I have been researching getting a PPL for about a month now and have come to ask for advice on the following:

1) For majority of my missions, I would only need a 4 seat plane, but would occasionally need a 6 seat plane. I understand the 80/20 rule, but I do like to knowledge that comes with owning a 6 seat plane and the having control of the condition/maintenance of it vs. buying a 4 seat and renting a 6 seat when I need it. Therefore, I have been looking at either a Saratoga or a Bonanaza. My price range is $150k.
2) I am considering buying the plane and then starting my training. I have read the comments on several boards of "Fly a rental during training, so you don't beat up your plane" but I am still leaning to training in my own plane as I would get more experience faster.
3) My company would allow me to charge what Delta is charging for a ticket to my destination. Is this allowed under Rule 91?
4) I have researched it, but can't find any flight schools in Jackson, TN. The closest ones are in MEM and BNA. Does anyone have knowledge of ones in Jackson?

This is just the first pass. TIA for any comments/suggestions for not only my comments above but anything else. I will try and not be a newbie just asking a lot of questions before doing my research.

Cheers,

Bill

 

[dell30rb]

What are some trips you would expect to make from your home? How far? What part of the country? How important is it that you get there on time?

If you expect to use your airplane as a business traveling machine you will need an instrument rating and a few hundred hours experience before you can transport yourself with pretty good reliability. And even then, you'll probably want to fly commercial a good portion of the time in winter months.

 

[jtheune]

A lot depends on where on the west coast you want to go. Jackson to LA is 1400 nautical miles and in a single engine plane your looking at 9-10 hours flight time and 1 or 2 fuel stops. I hate to say this but your better off on the airlines for the mission you describe. But get your PPL and the plane anyway!

 

[ajyeary]

You could try contacting the FBO at MKL there just outside of Jackson or try getting a hold of Londe Air Service over in Humboldt. Just a first pass here, let me know how it works for you.

 

[txnightster]

Welcome to the forum and lots of good questions. I will counter your questions with more annoying questions

When you say the airplane will allow you to be home more? Is this just to cut down on the commute to the airport or would you fly direct to your destination and then be able to get home on your own schedule as opposed to waiting for your Delta flight?

I have found that flying myself to meetings as a business owner can be stressful. If you are wanting to commute as an employee you might be tempted to push your personal minimums to make an appointment. The famous "get their itis" is one of the top killers.

With your schedule would you be able to take off additional time to complete your training. If you are flying cross country in a complex airplane you will need your Private, Instrument, HP and Complex. Trying to work that into your valuable weekends at home could be difficult.

How much time have you spent looking into the medical requirements to get your class 3 medical? This is an unavoidable roadblock that many people cant overcome.

1. Are you wanting a six seater for the six seats or just the additional space? You simply can't fill most seats in small GA planes and still bring your luggage and fuel. This goes for anything with 2 seats and up. The trade off of fuel, luggage and passengers will exist in all the planes you look at. Some do better than others and you should look closely at each option if you truly need a six seater.

2. I did the rental to train and then entered a partnership. If you can afford it and manage the airplane correctly than it is a good option. What many first time buyers will tell you is that after they got their first 250 hrs in multiple airplanes they began to figure out what they prefer and what equipment is necessary for their needs.

3. Not sure but someone else will be able to address this.


ok, rant over. Bill D.

 

[Bill Lumberg]

Thanks for the quick responses.

Ren/John - Yes, I don't plan on flying to LA/San Fran/Seattle/Anchorage in my plane - unless I want to. I would still fly commercial to these areas. I do a lot of flying to Chicago, Dallas, Minneapolis, Indy, so I am thinking I would start out doing those while I work up to my instrument rating and then start going to Denver, Naples FL, NYC, etc. Don't know if I would ever go all the way to the West Coast.

Andrew, Thanks. I will check them out.

Cheers,

Bill

 

[docmirror]

Welcome. I've got a few questions.

1) What distance is your typical trip?
2) What are the consequence if you didn't make a scheduled arrival due to your flight delay?
3) Why do you need 6 seats? If you are planning to carry empl, or guests a lot, you may run afoul of the 'holding out' clause as a private pilot.
4) Are you prepared to maintain a small twin engine plane to the level needed to do your mission year-round?

As for answering your questions, the first is that a 6 seat GA plane is really not what we would call six seats. More like a 4+2. The rear 2 seats in most GA planes are for midgets or kids under 12. There are exceptions, of course as you move up in cost.

You'll get several options on the training aspect. For me, what I would do is to buy the cheapest tailwheel plane you can find with a full panel(Maule, Cessna 170, Stinson 108) and learn in that. It'll give you an appreciation for landing training that you can't get in a trike. Then, sell that and move to a high perf single like a Bonanza, and then into a small twin.

Reimbursement for your flying yourself is fraught with issues from the FAA perspective. All I've ever gotten is the fed authorized mileage reimbursement of 55 cent/mile I think. Anything over that, well - we shall see.

Don't know anything about training in your area.

 

[dell30rb]

Reimbursement for your flying yourself is fraught with issues from the FAA perspective. All I've ever gotten is the fed authorized mileage reimbursement of 55 cent/mile I think. Anything over that, well - we shall see.

Fed rate for private aircraft travel is something like $1/mile

 

[DaleB]

Here's what I would suggest to give yourself an indication of how practical your plans are. Go over your past and planned trips, and work out a flight plan for each one. Take into account winds and weather. Fltplan.com, DUATS or another on line flight planning tool is great for this. Use real numbers for cruising speed, fuel burn, etc. You'll probably get some eye opening results when you figure out actual flight time and cost. Once you get a handle on things, you can do this with different airplanes to figure out the combination of seats, speed and fuel burn that works for you (if anything does). After looking for a while, you can also see how many trips you could actually fly VFR, how many would be IFR, and how many would just not be a good idea in anything smaller than a regional jet.

Along the way you'll hear some people telling you it's completely impractical without a twin turboprop equipped for icing conditions, others telling you a Cessna 172 will do just fine, and one or two saying just fly Southwest/Delta/AA. The truth lies somewhere in between.

 

[Corpsmaide]

Welcome to POA. Ask away! Grab a king air, train and hire me as your first officer. We shall figure out the rest.

 

[jmp470]

Bill,
The biggest question you should I ask yourself is, How much flexibility do you have in your schedule? I would get the 6 seater, as it allows for the adjustment of the mission, as once you own a plane, your mission will change.

 

[Bill Lumberg]

Thanks for all the quick responses. Here are some clarifying comments:

These are my commercial flights since July
1)Seattle
2)Pasco, WA
3)Minneapolis
4)LA
5)Dallas
6)Boston
7)Seattle
8)Hartford
9)Boston
10)Gulfport
11)Dallas

Given that, I plan on my missions starting out would be to:

1) Personal: Flying with the family to Louisville KY and Oxford MS to visit families. This would be at least one trip a month to one of the locations.

2) Business:fly to MEM and then go Delta/Commercial to the final destination. I would As my skills/confidence/ratings increased, I would start flying to directly to closer destinations and then further and further away. (i.e. Minni, Dallas, Gulfport and Boston)

Dale, Thanks for the websites. I will look at that.

For commuting as an employee, I have a certain degree of flexibility. I can always look at the weather a couple of days before and hop on a commercial plane instead of flying myself. Flights out of MEM are very expensive (no competition). If I can get a flight with 14 day notice under $1k, I am doing good. So a 3 day advanced does not usually up the cost by that much. I would not plan on flying myself during the winter months up north. Commercial would always be my back up and in some cases my only choice.

I can take the time off for training. I am a consultant, so unless I am onsite at a client, my day is for me to schedule. I work about 70 hours a week while I am on the road, so my company doesn't mind if take personal time during the week. I also get 4 weeks vacation, which I never take all of, so to take 3-4 days off to to a cross country flight would not be a problem.

I have looked into my Medical and have not seen anything that would stop me from getting the approval.

The reason I want a 6 six plane is for the 4 seats and luggage/fuel. I would not be taking any other employees on a regular basis, the 4 seats would be used for family/friends the majority of the time.

Corps - Looked at the King Airs, unfortunately they had one to many commas in the price.

Cheers,

Bill

 

[RV10flyer]

Here's what I would suggest to give yourself an indication of how practical your plans are. Go over your past and planned trips, and work out a flight plan for each one. Take into account winds and weather. Fltplan.com, DUATS or another on line flight planning tool is great for this. Use real numbers for cruising speed, fuel burn, etc. You'll probably get some eye opening results when you figure out actual flight time and cost. Once you get a handle on things, you can do this with different airplanes to figure out the combination of seats, speed and fuel burn that works for you (if anything does). After looking for a while, you can also see how many trips you could actually fly VFR, how many would be IFR, and how many would just not be a good idea in anything smaller than a regional jet.

Along the way you'll hear some people telling you it's completely impractical without a twin turboprop equipped for icing conditions, others telling you a Cessna 172 will do just fine, and one or two saying just fly Southwest/Delta/AA. The truth lies somewhere in between.

Dale, You forgot the RV-10 and a quick zoom climb to cruise altitude. Just kidding.

Bill, Sounds like you have it planned out well. Get a good pre-buy inspection done before purchasing your plane. I would recommend looking at accelerated flight training. I picked a slower time of year to get my PP in 6 weeks. Flew 4 days/week, $12,000 and 60 hours later. I would recommend soloing in a typical low-complexity trainer before hopping in your high performance. There is a lot going on at first, no matter how much like Maverick we think we are. Good luck with everything, keep us informed and welcome to POA.

 

[j1b3h0]

Bill -

Kudos for attempting to get the facts. Learning to fly airplanes is a great experience...that being said, light airplanes are the most impractical method of family travel since the horse and buggy. For some people (many on this forum) it works well, because their mission, their aircraft and - most importantly -their skill set is up to the task. But, in order to provide reliable transportation, great distances, with up to 6 seats in inclement weather, your biggest obstacle is the right guy in the hero-chair. That takes a lot of training and experience...years. But even if you just learn to fly and modify your ambitious plans run your families' personal airline, that's a really fun and enlightening thing to do. I wish you luck.

 

[docmirror]

What you're going to find, is that like a car, the other three seats are empty about 85% of the time. I had a mission similar to yours and I also had kids, and we liked the ability to travel when and where we wanted. I can count on both hands the number of times I filled all seats. Sometimes the wife would come along, and most of the time I was solo going somewhere, or taking a business trip.

This isn't much different than all the cars you see on the road today. They all pretty much have 4+ seats, but are all pretty much single occupant trips. It's rare for a family to load up more than 3-5 times a year in the plane and go somewhere. Don't get me wrong, I know there are folks that do that, but for a mixed biz/family use it's gonna be solo for a lot of the time.

Nothing wrong with hauling along 3 empty seats, a lot of guys do that all the time, but you are limiting yourself if you want 6 seats to planes which are really stretched 4 seaters. Heck, the Piper six is even called the Cherokee for the early 2+2 seat version, that was stretched out significantly.

To be real honest, I would say that you'd be happy if you could do 50% of your biz travel by GA planes. I know when I was traveling a lot, I had a pretty fast Bonanza 4 seat, and I could only use it about 35% of the time. The use radius of the GA plane gets sketchy after about 4-700 miles unless you invest in a lot of plane, maintenance, and training. I would go DFW to PHX area 3 times a year, and since it's in the sun belt had good dispatch reliability. However, I also needed to go to Detroit several times a year, and there are some months when there was no way in heck I was going to try taking GA from DFW to Detroit and get home with reasonable reliability. I just looked at the weather to Detroit right now, and although I could go, it wouldn't be much fun with bands of moderate icing across the mid west, and IFR conditions under Chicago and then further to the SE. However, PHX is clear as a bell. So, things to think about when you're planning to fly into the middle states.

 

[docmirror]

Thanks for all the quick responses. Here are some clarifying comments:

These are my commercial flights since July
1)Seattle
2)Pasco, WA
3)Minneapolis
4)LA
5)Dallas
6)Boston
7)Seattle
8)Hartford
9)Boston
10)Gulfport
11)Dallas

Given that, I plan on my missions starting out would be to:

1) Personal: Flying with the family to Louisville KY and Oxford MS to visit families. This would be at least one trip a month to one of the locations.

2) Business:fly to MEM and then go Delta/Commercial to the final destination. I would As my skills/confidence/ratings increased, I would start flying to directly to closer destinations and then further and further away. (i.e. Minni, Dallas, Gulfport and Boston)
Bill

I just did a little look at the weather right now for these trips from MEM. Here's what you would be able to do as a VFR pilot:

4) LA. Not unusual, but the sunbelt is clear from your place all the way to the coast. 12 hours in an entry plane, plus some headwind time. 8-ish hours in a faster GA plane. Figure a whole day flying.
5) Dallas is clear, and nice. Easy flight 378NM direct. About 3-ish hours in a entry level GA plane, about 2 and a bit in a pretty fast GA plane.
6) Boston is under a mod ice, but that would be above ~8-9000' in the clouds. You would need to do a little cloud dodging in E PA and W NY but it could be done. 990NM from MEM would be just under 8 hours in a entry GA plane, or 5.4 hours in something pretty fast.
8) Hartford, same as Boston.
10) Gulfport no problem.

Now, if you get your instrument rating, the access goes up, but there are still factors like icing that you won't want to mess with for about half the year.

 

[jordane93]

+1 on getting your instrument rating as well. it opens up a lot of windows and those days where it is cloudy and rainy, you will still be able to fly. a lot of the airports mentioned are big airports that require a lot studying and planning to make the flights smooth and efficient that even some airline pilots have trouble with. take a discovery flight and see if you actually want to do it.

 

[LJS1993]

Does the wife want to travel in a small GA aircraft?

 

[Tony_Scarpelli]

Hi all,

New to the forum and to flying. A little about me:

1) No previous pilot experience.

If you could fly most every day you can get your PPL in 2 months, there are schools that take you from zero to PPL in 10 days but they are difficult and most cannot do it. Trying to take flying lessons 1 week a month while you are home is going to stretch this into a year long project to just get your PPL and you are going to almost surely need your IFR as well which might take 2 years at this rate.

2) Travel coast to coast for work - Should hit ~150k-160k miles with Delta this year (all US except one trip to Europe).
3) On a plane 3 weeks a month.
4) Home airport is MEM. As you may know, they just lost their Delta hub, so I am connecting on ~80% of my trips now.

Living midwest helps me with my 200 MPH plane as I can get to either coast in 5 hrs flight time. That is sort of the upper limit to reasonable. If I had to do it every single week or several times a week that becomes unreasonable. Unlike traveling on delta, you are not able to sleep a hour or two on the flights. However shorter hops you are able to get home quicker to make up for some lost time. Some trips might be able to get there and back the same day which saves your bosses hotel and perdium but comes out of your pocket as often paying fuel only is more than coach class tickets.

I too live in a city where have connections on all flights so my 5 hrs 1000 nm trips are shorter than the 9 hrs minimum block times by commercial air.

I recommend you consider only using the airplane for trips up to 500 miles at first and then use commercial the rest of the time and see if that helps you at all. I think it unpractical for you to fly from TN to San Diego or Bellingham on a regular bases. Flying to KY, NY, WV, MO, and may other places is very reasonable except in winter icing situations. And none of it is practical until you get an IFR and experience. You should plan not to be real transportation until you hit 250 hrs or so as a rought guide.

5) Have a wife and two pre-teen boys.

It would be nice if you are going to have an airplane that you be able to take vacations with your family however this doesn't seem to be the real mission.

You can get a 250 mph Experimental plane that burns 10 gph that will meet your other mission easier but is 2 seat plane. Having to get 6 seats pushes this from 10 gph to 20 gph and takes the top speeds from 250mph possible to 170 mph. So by combining two missions you are actually getting a plane that does neither mission very well. I recommend a fast small plane if you travel solo and then rent the family cruiser.

6) Tired of leaving Sunday night to go to the airport (I live 1 1/2 hours away from MEM, and getting back on Thursday night.) My own plane would let me be home more.

I believe you can accomplish this some of the time maybe even much of the time but not all of the time. Do to requiring IFR and experience and later requiring Known Ice flight characteristics. During winters.

1) For majority of my missions, I would only need a 4 seat plane, but would occasionally need a 6 seat plane. I understand the 80/20 rule, but I do like to knowledge that comes with owning a 6 seat plane and the having control of the condition/maintenance of it vs. buying a 4 seat and renting a 6 seat when I need it. Therefore, I have been looking at either a Saratoga or a Bonanaza. My price range is $150k.

You should be able to get a Saratoga or Bonanza in your price range but they really are not 6 seat aircraft at least not 6 adults especially the Bonanza. If you take 4 adults you buy a 6 seat plane....

2) I am considering buying the plane and then starting my training. I have read the comments on several boards of "Fly a rental during training, so you don't beat up your plane" but I am still leaning to training in my own plane as I would get more experience faster.[/qupte]

I bought a Cherokee for 20k and then got my ppl and 800 hrs within 3 years. It was very cheap. It can do about 110 knots and you can do trips up to 5 hrs in any direction so it would help you do some of your mission to the extent that it is close to your home. It will allow you to explore how well general aviation accomplishes your mission on a budget. You can even burn mogas which usually costs as little as half of av gas. But you probably will not want to go 10-15 hrs one way more than once or twice. You will also see that wx plays a part in your ability to get to your mission locations more than anything else. of course you can always fly when its nice and go commerical when its not, and if you ever have to leave a plane some place get it next time you come to that location or pay the recovery costs yourself or get it on the way to another customer.

3) My company would allow me to charge what Delta is charging for a ticket to my destination. Is this allowed under Rule 91?

No problem

4) I have researched it, but can't find any flight schools in Jackson, TN. The closest ones are in MEM and BNA. Does anyone have knowledge of ones in Jackson?

Put a free add in craigslist for a CFI and see what you come up with. If you bought your own aircraft and kept it simple you can train in it.

 

[HighFlyingA380]

My first thought when I saw your name...

Welcome to POA!

 

[Ghery]

With the fog we've been having, SEA will require an IR, and then keep your fingers crossed that the weather is above minimums for the ILS. And from Memphis this is a long haul in a light plane. Even with the insane airfares you are quoting the airlines are still cheaper.

I'm one of those folks who needs the flexibility in getting where I'm going. A typical trip by GA for us is to cross the state. Before I had the IR there were plenty of trips that wound up being by car because I couldn't guarantee VMC for the trip. With the IR I have more options. But there are still plenty of weather conditions that will say "drive". We have a wonderful ice machine here in western Washington and the planes I fly are allergic to ice (as am I). I see you had a trip to Pasco. Not so much of a problem there, but you still have to cross the Rockies to get there from your home.

I'd highly encourage you to learn to fly. It is fun and rewarding. And cheaper than a therapist. However, don't expect GA to replace the airlines. It hasn't for me, as evidenced by my 1K status on United. Go for it.

 

[FORANE]

Does anyone have knowledge of ones in Jackson?

Cheers,

Bill

Hey Bill

There was a big school in Jackson with a few planes based at Mckeller and at Gibson county airport. I got my private there 20 some years ago. The school offered a single price with a guarantee of all the hours you needed to get a rating. I took about 10 days, got about 60 hours to get my private license. I heard the school locked the doors one day amid financial trouble and questions of adhering to required maintenance, etc but that is just rumor I heard...

I would go to a few of the nearby airports and speak with the locals. There surely must be at least a guy with a CFI rating who would be willing to train you in your plane. I would buy a cessna 150 just to use for training. You can buy those all day long for 14 - 20k. Use it to train and get a little experience. Then after you are done, sell it for the same amount you paid for it.

AOPA has a pilot locator:
http://flighttraining.aopa.org/learntofly/school/cfi_search/index.cfm

Jackson has a few CFI's:

Instructor Search Results Click on the instructor name for further details.
Instructor Name City State ROBERT CALL JACKSON TN MARK FRANKUM JACKSON TN JEFFREY HILDEBRAND JACKSON TN KENNETH HOLLAND JACKSON TN JAMIE JOHNSON JACKSON TN New Search

 

[comanchepilot]

Thanks for all the quick responses. Here are some clarifying comments:

These are my commercial flights since July
1)Seattle
2)Pasco, WA
3)Minneapolis
4)LA
5)Dallas
6)Boston
7)Seattle
8)Hartford
9)Boston
10)Gulfport
11)Dallas

You are not flying GA for business in a 120kt airplane to 1, 2, 4, 6,7,8, and 9 - its simply too far to do it for business. Get a 160kt airplane and 8 and 9 become possible.

Next - what was the weather in Dallas, Gulfport, and MSP on the days you flew? What was the enroute weather? Could you have actually flown the trips IFR at the times you needed to depart MEM?

Then think about doing this in winter. . . those are long distances and in winter the wavelengths in the atmosphere shorten and I can almost guarantee a front between MEM and HFD/BOS/ and even MSP in winter. You are not penetrating a warm or cold front in winter in that part of the country given freezing temps.

Moving on to Spring - lots of thunder in that part of the country . . .

I'm not trying to crush your dream but the best use of the airplane might be flying back and forth to MEM or even to the connection city [ATL?] so you can fly the trip nonstop to the destination.

 

[Captain]

I'd guess a budget of only $150K for a plane is too light for what you want to do. But my advice isn't that. My advice is to go to Michelbobs and eat the best BBQ in the world the next time you're in Naples, FL. Just down the road from the FBO. Ask the girl at the counter and they'll either give you a ride or give you the crew car.

I know, you're from Memphis and all and MEM does have awesome BBQ...but seriously, Michelbobs is the best I've ever had.

Ummmmm, BBQ...

 

[Sac Arrow]

Mmmm I like BBQ. Sage advice.

 

[Scott@KTYR]

Hi Bill,

You got some great advice here.

Flying is fun and can take you to some wonderful places.

Just remember to not rush your training. Take small steps. When you start learning to fly it is hard to absorb all the things you need to do at one time. Take it slow in a Fix gear smaller engine plane (Trainer) that will allow you to work on each aspect of flying.

I know finically it would be better to buy the plane you want at first and learn in it, but this is not the safest move.

In your flight training you will start learning skills that will become second nature, such as coming in for a landing and compensating for wind and speed. At first you do not need to add into the mix retractable gear, variable speed prop, turbo temperature. Etc…

Buy a starter plane with fix gear, IFR certified with a good GPS (Garmin 430) you can use for IFR training. Be sure you check the logs to make sure it is certified. I got burned on that one. I trained for 3 months using a Garmin 430 and the night before my IFR check ride I find out it was not certified. No paper work was file for this. So I took my ride without using the GPS, only used my VOR.

That is my 2 cents, hope it helps.