Everskyward
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Everskyward
That's a little difficult if you are also going to school there.
New Pipers for UND
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If you want to have a degree from 'Cheap online-U', sure you could do that.
James331
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A airline isn't going to pay you a cent more based on where you went to school for your "aviation degree".
Oh, I don't know. I had a UND-trained CFI (he was a senior then, teaching for the local FBO) for my instrument, commercial and CFI 35 years ago. I got excellent training and received good reviews from the examiners after my rides. He went on to fly cargo after graduation.
Last time I looked (last year) he was a Senior Check Airman on the B777 at FedEx. That's around $400K/year plus benefits.
How does that stack up against your aviation career, James?
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Clearly a second rate school, not limited to the aviation program. I hear some of the lawyers they put out have to pick up second jobs, like flying jets ;-)
James331
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It's a great gig, thing is he could have ended up in the same spot without working for peanuts early on.
DavidWhite
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Half the majors have dropped their 4 year degree requirement....Alaska, United dropped to an associates, Southwest, And Delta.
hindsight2020
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That may be, but I hope people aren't hanging their hat on that one, if one intends to get hired at DL/AA/UA. I'm not advocating for the value of a 4 year degree in the context of being a stick monkey (there is none), but the demographics of new hires are overwhelmingly supporting of the fact that lack of a 4-year degree is a show stopper. Maybe that will change, my guess is it doesn't.
James331
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I don't think the degree matters too much anymore, with online degrees and everything a 4 year just isn't that impressive, folks are figuring out that once you got the hours to get into the majors, you're experience will say far more compared to where you went to schools years ago.
jordane93
Touchdown! Greaser!
If you want to have a decent chance at getting a job with a major airline you'll have at least a bachelor's. Folks have tens of thousands of hours and thousands of jet PIC time and still can't get jobs at legacies. It's more about networking, getting internal recommendations, being part of the training department and volunteer work.
jordane93
Touchdown! Greaser!
I wouldn't bet on getting a job with Delta or United without AT LEAST a Bachelor's. Regionals no problem.
Graduating with an aviation degree also gets you the R-ATP at 1000hrs. Less time spent instructing, earlier start at the regionals.
The UND instructors seem to fly a lot, much of it babysitting a chinese kid in a seminole through his cross-country time. By being part of the 'firm', you have a built in source of students.
Whether you made $19/hr or $25/hr while instructing won't make much of a difference in the overall math. The UND kids get out at age 22 with an accredited bachelor's and a R-ATP, in the current hiring climate that is not a bad position to be in.
The UND instructors seem to fly a lot, much of it babysitting a chinese kid in a seminole through his cross-country time. By being part of the 'firm', you have a built in source of students.
Whether you made $19/hr or $25/hr while instructing won't make much of a difference in the overall math. The UND kids get out at age 22 with an accredited bachelor's and a R-ATP, in the current hiring climate that is not a bad position to be in.
jordane93
Touchdown! Greaser!
While I agree the RATP is beneficial, there are guys that have gotten to regionals only a few months before me but they have a mountain of debt. It's really up to the person to decide if the 500 less hours is worth tens of thousands dollars of debt.
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Same age as you and with an accredited bachelor's?
jordane93
Touchdown! Greaser!
Yep. 22 and I got my BA in Economics.
Great, so on your 65th birthday you two can compare numbers and report back to us ;-)
jordane93
Touchdown! Greaser!
Could be 67 by the time I get there!
By then, I'll be retired. So you better work until you keel over to pay my medicare.
Easy to spout but reality says otherwise. But the point of the post was to put the lie to the idea anyone working for peanuts is, by default, incompetent.
hindsight2020
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You say that like that's a good thing...lol.
Exactly. Actuarials state a man who works and retires at 66, dies the next year. For black people it's even worse, they die the day before their first social security check. Add any history of heart disease and forget it, you're shorting yourself a lot in life by protracting your dreams into your 60s.
Not a fan of the whole working full-time on one's 60s. False economy. Certainly an economic necessity for an increasing swath of the population going forward, but that's a tragic concession, not a "choice" by any possible definition.
Seanaldinho
Pattern Altitude
Some of the CFIs are in their senior year at the school and teach part time so they can make money and keep flying. I believe there is a program where if they sign a contract to CFI for a certain amount of time they can delay their student loan payments as well or something along those lines where it is beneficial for them to stay and teach (Im not 100% sure about this program). Also remember that these kids just graduated and have lived here for 4 years and have friends and girlfriends/boyfriends who might still be in school and a lot of these instructors max out their duty day on a regular basis making decent money compared to waiting tables or working in town while they add to their logbook.
I have my criticisms of the UND program, Im not a commercial aviation major, and I have never actually flown a UND aircraft but I work at the airport for the University and most of my classmates and friends are flying on a regular basis.
I have my criticisms of the UND program, Im not a commercial aviation major, and I have never actually flown a UND aircraft but I work at the airport for the University and most of my classmates and friends are flying on a regular basis.
Gucci Pilot
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It seems like they just got those 172s. The year after I graduated(not too long ago) I remember the FBO I trained at bought one of their Archers. One of the nicest rental planes I have flown, and it had a ton of hours.
I dont believe that the actuaries say that.
They actually say that your average life expectancy at age 65 is 19.3 years. And that includes folks already in the nursing home after a stroke or wheelchair bound from morbid obesity. If you reach age 66 with a current medical, your life expectancy is probably in excess of 20 years, much of that with a good QOL.
But I agree, I am not feeling the full-time until the mid 60s thing either. I'll probably go part-time when the kids are grown and rather work into 'retirement' age than trying to defer everything until I have that magic number in the bank. I work at a desk, not in a mineshaft.
alexgeo
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I'm glad schools like UND are constantly purchasing new aircraft. Without large-scale training operations, the 172S or Archer III production lines would probably no longer exist.
oregonboy109
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Ya this order alone will keep Piper going for the next 8 years. The competition between C and P was probably fierce. Wonder why they went back to Piper...
What's the allure of sitting around playing dominoes all day?? If someone is willing to pay you to do what you enjoy doing and would be doing even they weren't paying you, then what's wrong with "working" into your 60s?
James331
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Nothing at all
The happiest folks in their 60s I know are the types who can't retire, not money wise, but because they don't have the personality it handle retirement.
Someone said something like what it needed to be happy / fulfilled is
Something to do
Someone to love
Something to aspire to
The happiest folks in their 60s I know are the types who can't retire, not money wise, but because they don't have the personality it handle retirement.
Someone said something like what it needed to be happy / fulfilled is
Something to do
Someone to love
Something to aspire to
Everskyward
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Everskyward
But are you really doing what you would be doing if they weren't paying you? I don't mean flying airplanes in general. I mean showing up at a certain time to fly a certain route, etc. I still like flying but I also like my time to myself. I have no problem with three weeks or a month off while the airplane is in maintenance. I get a little cranky when they say it might be done early so be ready to get back in town...
mscard88
Touchdown! Greaser!
C'mon James, you do this every thread that's similar to this one. You took a different route and you're satisfied. That's fine and great for you. These students want that major job and they're willing to do this at UND so they can get to a regional, and then hopefully on to a major. It's called sacrificing and working for something you want badly. Nothing wrong with that. Sure they should pay them more than $19/hr, but it's the market at work, so why would the employer pay more than what's acceptable to the CFIs there? And the ones that do it, do it willingly.
timwinters
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But not nearly as much as a mountain of ignorance will.
mscard88
Touchdown! Greaser!
What many don't realize is you're competing against other pilots for the majors, all of whom have a BS and a large percentage have a Masters degree. Delta also places value on civic duty and volunteering for charity work. So while the 4 year degree requirement may not be required, you're competing against ones who have the afore mentioned. If one wants to get there, you better have the same qualifications too. And you still may not get hired.
NHWannabe
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The flying costs are over and above "regular" college tuition and room and board.
oregonboy109
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Yes. Tuition is pretty reasonable though compared to many other state schools. About 18k per year out of state.
Seanaldinho
Pattern Altitude
And its very easy to become a resident of the state as well. Just have a mailing address for 12 months and you can go get a drivers license and save yourself another few grand every year. (dependents of veterans also receive instate tuition if you apply)
jordane93
Touchdown! Greaser!
Exactly. The way I see it is why do I want to do the minimum. The minimum is the minimum. Just like school. C is average but I don't want to be average.
hindsight2020
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That's a false dichotomy. To be clear, I was addressing full-time work. While I enjoy what I do and take great pride in watching my students become full fledged military aviators flying fighters I'll never get the opportunity to fly, it is a job at the end of the day. As such, it puts strain on my relationships because it consumes so much time and demands so much focus. But, I'm not going to default on my family because my job becomes my mistress by economic need. Workaholic behavior may be part and parcel of the American Protestant work ethic.. which is fine, cuz I'm not Protestant.
So.. do that past 55? No thanks. Never mind I couldn't medically do this that long even if I wanted to. I would say, the right very part time job would be a nice balance to having the kind of scheduling freedom that would make my life feel like it actually belongs to me. The airline gig offers the potential (certainly not the guarantee) for attaining enough free time to be able to muster some of that discretion, for the price of time away from the house while on-duty (bidding reserve line in domicile notwithstanding of course
). At the end of the day, I would much prefer wealth independence to the schedule constraints of working life. If you can have that in working life, consider yourself lucky to have such a forgiving job; I've found the American working landscape to be rather family-hostile. I still find myself at odds with the fact I have to excuse the fact my 2 year old gets sick and thus knocks me out of the flying schedule (can't clear my sinus = can't work) to my employer, or that my wife needs me to be a caretaker in order to do the same at her employer. What kind of society am I serving that makes the workplace the equivalent of grimacing DINKS on the back of your row on an airplane? Or be threatened with penalties and layoff because burying my grandmother was "inconvenient" to the college lab schedule? Independently wealthy people don't have to excuse their humanity in the course of their living, and I envy that. So yeah, I'd gladly play canasta on my leather --- at home if it means strangers stop f-----ng with me and my family.
denverpilot
Tied Down
There's been some horror stories about the "contract" flight students constantly bumping "degree" students on the flight schedule that have trickled out for a long time up there. Pay the big bucks for the degree, get in line for the airplanes behind the kids from China. The school already has your money.
I can't say whether they're true or not. Just that the stories are out there.
Other horror stories about their "dispatch" system also abound, including near impossibility of flying in actual ("not safe enough") and routes that go between the same airports always, and nearly no ability to plan a longer XC ("poor aircraft utilization").
I get the distinct impression you "don't talk about fight club" until you're much older and established in a good aviation job if you went to that school either, because you'll get way too much attention from the others who bit their lip and endured it. But some of the reviews many years later that eventually get published by folks who don't work for places that need UND grads in the biz, are pretty scathing.
Not my dog, not my fight, way too old to care, but mentioning it in case someone is headed up there bright and starry eyed.
The way some of the guys who went through it explained it to me, the contract training is the 'food' that keeps the upper class UND students fed. That is where they rack up the hours between 270 and 1000 while making a little bit of money. Given the weather constraints on the flying season, there is always going to be a lot of call for training certain times of the year, I can see how that may create some grumbling from the lower classes and the students without an aviation major.
Seanaldinho
Pattern Altitude
I can say pretty confidently that the contract students do not get any priority over undergrads. They have more availability than the undergrad students because they aren't taking a full class load but scheduling is first come first serve. Dispatch priority is student pilot xc's first, then stage checks, then xc's, then regular launches. There is no distinction between contract and undergrad, its based off of who turns in their dispatch slip first at that point. As far as "the school has your money", thats not entirely true. The contract students have a block of time that their airline buys them and then they have to complete the course in that time so the school has their money, however undergrads pay tuition and what not but flying is invoiced and paid separately through a flight account. There is a minimum dispatch amount of 200 dollars, basically to cover the flight you are taking, but the school doesn't get paid for your flying until you fly.
As far as flying in actual goes, most students get time in actual. However, when its below freezing and the cloud bases are low no one is flying because of icing. If its above freezing and the freezing level is high enough and the ceilings are above minimums people can fly into the clouds all day long. In the summer, thunderstorms are the biggest instrument hazard but in the fall and spring actual is easy to come by.
Where you plan a cross country is up to the student and instructor. People fly to the Twin Cities regularly, Duluth, Devils Lake, Minot, Bismarck, Pierre, etc. Most places in ND, SD, and MN are fair game. Some airports at restricted in the winter because they do not have a staffed building 24/7, in the event they get stuck there and need somewhere warm to stay, however the larger problem is that its ND, SD, and MN so options are limited.