New Phraseology in Canada

Everskyward

Everskyward

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Canada: "Line Up and Wait" Instruction
Notice Number: NOTC1165

In Canada, controllers currently use the phraseology "TAXI TO POSITION" or "TAXI TO POSITION AND WAIT" when instructing an aircraft to enter the departure runway. As part of the continuing effort by NAV CANADA to conform with international best practices, procedures will be implemented in the near future to adopt the ICAO-recommended phraseology "LINE UP" or "LINE UP AND WAIT" when controllers instruct an aircraft to enter the runway intended for take off.
This change will take place in April, 2008 with advanced notice published as Aeronautical Information Circular 9/08. This circular is currently available on the NAV CANADA website and may be accessed via the attached link.
Aeronautical Information Circular 9/08

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If you're not cleared for takeoff, what's the difference between "line up" and "line up and wait?"
 
I like it. Sounds more like English as it is spoken to say "Line up and wait" instead of "Position and hold".
 
I got that too. I love how the regulation in Canada came to us "[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,Sans-Serif]because you have selected "Local Air Safety Information" in your preferences"

OTOH, since I'm heading up there later this year, it was actually timely. I'm familiar with it from flying in New Zealand, though.[/FONT]
 
I don't know, this was the version I got....

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Canada: "Line Up and Wait" Instruction
Notice Number: NOTC1165

In Canada, controllers currently use the phraseology "TAXI TO POSITION" or "TAXI TO POSITION AND WAIT" when instructing an aircraft to enter the departure runway. As part of the continuing effort by NAV CANADA to conform with international best practices, procedures will be implemented in the near future to adopt the ICAO-recommended phraseology "LINE UP, EH!" or "LINE UP AND WAIT, EH!" when controllers instruct an aircraft to enter the runway intended for take off.
This change will take place in April, 2008 with advanced notice published as Aeronautical Information Circular 9/08. This circular is currently available on the NAV CANADA website and may be accessed via the attached link.
Aeronautical Information Circular 9/08

[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,Sans-Serif]You have received this notice from FAASafety.gov because you have selected "Local Air Safety Information" in your preferences on your FAASafety.gov account. Click here to log in and edit your preferences on FAASafety.gov.[/FONT]
Safety is a learned behavior...Learn to be safer at the Learning Center found on FAASafety.gov
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Just kidding... is there a prize for being the first to crack this lame joke? :goofy:
 
And after that tower will say, "Take off, hoser!"
 
AuntPeggy said:
I like it. Sounds more like English as it is spoken to say "Line up and wait" instead of "Position and hold".
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I disagree. If someone tells me to "line up", I wonder who I'm supposed to line up behind.

And I STILL don't get why there are two separate instructions. I can't see the use of a "line up" instruction. Either you're holding short, lining up and waiting, or you're cleared for takeoff.
 
TMetzinger said:
I disagree. If someone tells me to "line up", I wonder who I'm supposed to line up behind.

And I STILL don't get why there are two separate instructions. I can't see the use of a "line up" instruction. Either you're holding short, lining up and waiting, or you're cleared for takeoff.
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I took it to be like Hubby's exasperated instruction to line up with the centerline when I meander along the taxiway or create my own imaginary line for takeoff.
 
Call me the contrarian, but I remain unconvinced that "Line up and wait" is in any way clearer than "position and hold."

Is there a legitimate reason why we should adopt his sillyness?
 
SCCutler said:
Call me the contrarian, but I remain unconvinced that "Line up and wait" is in any way clearer than "position and hold."
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I agree

SCCutler said:
Is there a legitimate reason why we should adopt his sillyness?
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The only argument I have heard is that it would reduce confusion when foreign pilots use the US airspace and likewise when we fly to other countries. BTW it is ICAO phraseology.
 
Well, the ICAO is an ass.
 
Line up with what? The centerline? The taxiway centerline? If I am to hold short of the runway, there's a hold short line, not a line up line.
 
SCCutler said:
Call me the contrarian, but I remain unconvinced that "Line up and wait" is in any way clearer than "position and hold."

Is there a legitimate reason why we should adopt his sillyness?
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I've heard controllers use the word "line" or "line up behind" in a sentence such as "Follow in line up behind the Barron."

When I hear the phrase "position and hold," I instantly know that means on the runway, prepared for departure. Maybe ICAO wants shorter words they can understand.
 
KennyFlys said:
When I hear the phrase "position and hold," I instantly know that means on the runway, prepared for departure. Maybe ICAO wants shorter words they can understand.
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You mentioned the other day that you were teaching foreign students. I had a foreign student once who at first had trouble distinguishing between the two phrases "hold short" and "position and hold". :hairraise:

Interesting discussion anyway. I never dreamed it would be controversial. I thought I was making a public service announcement. Everyone keep in mind that this change is in Canada, not the US... yet.
 
AuntPeggy said:
I took it to be like Hubby's exasperated instruction to line up with the centerline when I meander along the taxiway or create my own imaginary line for takeoff.
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I've always taken it to mean "line up with the runway", so it made sense to me.

Besides, when I think of "position and hold" I think prostate exams. Think about it!:eek::hairraise:
 
Thanks, Greg... I hope I can get that association OUT of my head before I go to an air carrier airport.
 
TMetzinger said:
Thanks, Greg... I hope I can get that association OUT of my head before I go to an air carrier airport.
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Presuming you meant me, I bet you won't have any problem wanting to avoid the old phrase when in Canada, eh? And ICAO can't come soon enough here!:D
 
Rumor has it we will be using the same phraseology here soon.

Is there a legitimate reason why we should adopt his sillyness?
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Because that's the way Europe does it, and everyone knows their way is always better than ours.
 
Something kind of odd, every country I have flow in both pacific area and Europe area when we are given a position and hold clearance, the controllers tell us to "position and hold". Even though we live by ICAO law outside the FAA domain,I guess the controllers don't think we know what "line up and wait" is.
 
AWACSEng said:
Something kind of odd, every country I have flow in both pacific area and Europe area when we are given a position and hold clearance, the controllers tell us to "position and hold". Even though we live by ICAO law outside the FAA domain,I guess the controllers don't think we know what "line up and wait" is.
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Or maybe... they are using what has worked forever? :dunno:

If it ain't broke, don't fix it!
 
So how did they arrive at an ATC phrase - "line up and wait" - that is so boneheadedly silly?
 
SCCutler said:
So how did they arrive at an ATC phrase - "line up and wait" - that is so boneheadedly silly?
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I am sure it was at a ICAO meeting and someone put it forward and those that speak English/English instead of American/English outnumbered those that supported the current FAA phraseology.
 
smigaldi said:
I am sure it was at a ICAO meeting and someone put it forward and those that speak English/English instead of American/English outnumbered those that supported the current FAA phraseology.
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...which just goes to show you, sometimes, arrogance overcomes common sense.

(And, FWIW, I am one of those folks confused as to why we are still using feet and inches thirty-five years after we were supposed to have stopped...)
 
SCCutler said:
...which just goes to show you, sometimes, arrogance overcomes common sense.

(And, FWIW, I am one of those folks confused as to why we are still using feet and inches thirty-five years after we were supposed to have stopped...)
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Because if I say the runway is 852 meters long, do you think you have enough room to take off fully loaded?





























(approx 2795ft by the way)
 
SCCutler said:
...which just goes to show you, sometimes, arrogance overcomes common sense.

(And, FWIW, I am one of those folks confused as to why we are still using feet and inches thirty-five years after we were supposed to have stopped...)
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SCCutler said:
So how did they arrive at an ATC phrase - "line up and wait" - that is so boneheadedly silly?
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You line up with the centerline. Then you wait. Why is that silly? It makes perfect sense. As Mary pointed out, it can't be confused with "hold short".

Also, standardization just makes sense. Sometimes, people cross borders in airplanes (I know, it sounds silly, but it really does happen). If everybody uses the same phraseology for safety critical items like clearance to enter the runway environment but not take off, that seems like a significant safety bonus.

Position and hold sounds more macho, but it's less safe. It's less safe because it isn't standard.
 
cwyckham said:
You line up with the centerline. Then you wait. Why is that silly? It makes perfect sense. As Mary pointed out, it can't be confused with "hold short".

Also, standardization just makes sense. Sometimes, people cross borders in airplanes (I know, it sounds silly, but it really does happen). If everybody uses the same phraseology for safety critical items like clearance to enter the runway environment but not take off, that seems like a significant safety bonus.

Position and hold sounds more macho, but it's less safe. It's less safe because it isn't standard.
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OK, when would they issue a "Line up" instruction without the "and wait"?
 
sorry, I'm gonna cringe every time I hear it ... sounds too much like my childhood

"Shut up and sit down!!!" :goofy:

or "Straighten up and fly right!!!" :D
 
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