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Tarheelpilot

Final Approach
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Tarheelpilot
Help me decide please. I have narrowed my search to two. The trucks have same body style, transmission and mileage is ~160k on both.
Option 1: 06' 5.9 Cummins, paint is 9/10, interior is 8/10, 4" exhaust cold air filter and smarty tuner

Option 2: 07' 6.7 Cummins, 5 paint with some dents, 6 interior
Emissions delete, 4" exhaust and efi live tuner. This truck is $2k cheaper.

I'm replacing an early 24v dodge so I have no firsthand experience with either of these engines.

Opinions??
 
I wouldn't touch either.

Most people who mess with emissions don't have the slightest clue what they are doing. They can do a lot of damage and very rarely do any good at all.
 
I take it your county doesn't require emissions checks?
 
MAKG1 said:
I wouldn't touch either.

Most people who mess with emissions don't have the slightest clue what they are doing. They can do a lot of damage and very rarely do any good at all.
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You obviously don't own a Cummins equiped vehicle nor have a clue about anything to do with truck performance tuning either.


I'm sure if you did, you'd understand how the diesel performance market works and stupid easy it is to tune a truck.
 
OP


Tough call on which one. the purests would say the 5.9 all the way. But having owned both and current 6.7 owner FULLY tuned with almost every performance mod you can buy, the 6.7 power plant is well supported by the aftermarket.

As they sit, which truck do you like better?
 
I would go with option 1. I like the 5.9, but am totally ignorant of the 6.7. I replaced a '97 5.9 (225k miles) with an '07 5.9 (88k miles) a couple of years ago and am completely happy with it.

What are they asking for each?

What's your truck mission?

I tow a smaller 5th wheel at about 8,500 lbs. The '97 tranny was not up to the task for the mountains here, even after a moderate rebuild. The '07 has the 6 speed manual and I'm very pleased with it. It has a BullyDog tuner that I'm taking out, and going with an EFI Live with Performance and Towing tunes.
 
ATS has a tranny set up you could tow the space shuttle with. last check it was a couple grand. weak point I the stock set up is the clutch pack. just can't hold big power.

gkainz said:
I would go with option 1. I like the 5.9, but am totally ignorant of the 6.7. I replaced a '97 5.9 (225k miles) with an '07 5.9 (88k miles) a couple of years ago and am completely happy with it.

What are they asking for each?

What's your truck mission?

I tow a smaller 5th wheel at about 8,500 lbs. The '97 tranny was not up to the task for the mountains here, even after a moderate rebuild. The '07 has the 6 speed manual and I'm very pleased with it. It has a BullyDog tuner that I'm taking out, and going with an EFI Live with Performance and Towing tunes.
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MAKG1 said:
I wouldn't touch either.

Most people who mess with emissions don't have the slightest clue what they are doing. They can do a lot of damage and very rarely do any good at all.
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I wouldn't buy a 6.7 without the delete already done. In this case there are receipts from a local shop with good reputation.
 
Unit74 said:
ATS has a tranny set up you could tow the space shuttle with. last check it was a couple grand. weak point I the stock set up is the clutch pack. just can't hold big power.
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yep ... and my guy's build rivals ATS's build (emphasis on "rivals" as both shops are a couple of miles apart and they know each other)

What was unusual about my failure(s) are the unimproved or off-road towing I did with the auto, including backing up a steep hill every time I put the 5er away. I used 4 low to back with, but still took 1st/Reverse out twice. May have been compounded by the OD lockout (not ATS TransCommander) I was using to support the PacBrake exhaust brake on the '97.

For the clutch, so far (30k miles of my towing) the OEM clutch is holding fine (until BD on Extreme - can slip it there, but I don't have the need to play in that mode) but will go with a dual disk pack when it's time to replace.
 
Wouldn't really call a 06' old, but ok.

Personally, I'd ether get a 90s or earlier diesel or I'd just get a gas truck, seems like most of the newish diesels start having expensive stuff start to break around 100k, where as tacomas go forever, kinda a flip from how that used to be with diesels vs gas.
 
James331 said:
Wouldn't really call a 06' old, but ok.

Personally, I'd ether get a 90s or earlier diesel or I'd just get a gas truck, seems like most of the newish diesels start having expensive stuff start to break around 100k, where as tacomas go forever, kinda a flip from how that used to be with diesels vs gas.
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Gas won't cut it with my tow requirements. My combined weight with the loaded trailer on the 01' diesel was 22-23k lbs. In flat land I would be ok perhaps with a good gas setup but I'm routinely pulling through the Rockies and the pacific NW.
 
James331 said:
Wouldn't really call a 06' old, but ok.

Personally, I'd ether get a 90s or earlier diesel or I'd just get a gas truck, seems like most of the newish diesels start having expensive stuff start to break around 100k, where as tacomas go forever, kinda a flip from how that used to be with diesels vs gas.
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When a newer diesel comes into the shop with a cel on I start doing my happy dance.
 
Unit74 said:
You obviously don't own a Cummins equiped vehicle nor have a clue about anything to do with truck performance tuning either.


I'm sure if you did, you'd understand how the diesel performance market works and stupid easy it is to tune a truck.
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Cummins, no. Diesel yes. I do understand how the Diesel performance market works. Just like the gasoline performance market. It's a scam, depending critically on the end user's inability to measure results sufficiently, with a hefty dose of confirmation bias.

It's stupid-easy to LOOK like you did something. And with computer control, it becomes substantially more difficult to fix properly when it breaks.

Oh, and it's a Federal crime. 42 USC 7522(a)(3). Fortunately for you, it's the seller who is subject to the fine. $25000 for a shop, $2500 for an individual. Diesels are no longer exempt unless they are strictly off-road or stationary.
 
I owned a 02 Dodge 2500 diesel (5.9) no programmers or mods, never needed it. I drove it 157k sold it to a local, and see it often around town, the buyer pulls a huge boat on a 3 Axel trailer. it now has 359k and still running strong. and has never had any major maintenance.
5.9 = bullet proof.
 
Unit74 said:
You obviously don't own a Cummins equiped vehicle nor have a clue about anything to do with truck performance tuning either.


I'm sure if you did, you'd understand how the diesel performance market works and stupid easy it is to tune a truck.
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I understand the diesel market and I know how stupid easy it is tear up the transmission (especially the Dodge transmission) and/or engine with performance tuning. Most folks, not all, add the electronic enhancer, turn it all the way up, and then start breaking things. Which is why I would not buy a diesel that has any computer performance enhancer already installed.

The first thing I did on my Duramax is the transmission. Other than a 4 inch exhaust and a dry cold air filter, not that popular yet ineffective oil soaked air filter, it does all I require from it. I even have a muffler on it.
 
I'd want to know what transmissions were in each, and what rear end ratio, before answering the question.

Other questions I'd have that would be less important but still important would be things like how many miles are on the Bosch in the 5.9, and what front end/steering work, if any, had been done on each.

In other words, the Cummins isn't what fails in these trucks... and the failure modes are well known -- fuel pumps, steering (track bar and all the associated stuff, power steering pump) -- so I'd try to figure out which one was going to need the most work ($$$) to get it into proper shape. Especially for towing heavy.

You also didn't mention if these are SRW or DRW or if either are 2500 or 3500. There's some changes along the model lines in the DRW that would make later ones desirable (I forget which year the drum brakes went away on the DRW, but there's literally no aftermarket disc brake upgrades for that original axle, so if you hate drums... like I do... it's the only thing I don't like about my '01 3500.)

$2K is essentially nothing. Look hard at what the *rest* of the systems on the truck have had done to them. Does the 5.9 have an AirDog or similar lift pump done, or anything done to fix the standard in-tank loft pump problem?

I don't know the standard failures on the 6.7 very well, but the neighbor who has an early 6.7 is on his third "RE" transmission. The early Dodge automatics can suck hard.

Let's say for example that the 5.9 has the nearly bombproof six speed manual... (not even sure they were offering it that late, honestly don't know) that'd make my decision for me, right there. Of course with tuning, it's almost guaranteed someone abused even that tranny, but I'd still get that manual over the early Dodge automatics. The five speed manual vs the auto, tougher call. Both weak for upgraded HP and torque. And even the six speed will need an upgraded clutch for any sort of high torque settings on a tune.

Lots and lots of details not covered, so... can't answer the question.

On mine, the two things I don't like but I'm okay with are that it has the drum rear brakes, and the low geared rear end. It's a screaming RPM pig above 65 MPH and the engine has plenty of power for the lower gear ratio.

Other minor stuff but would weigh in... either one have an exhaust brake? I wouldn't own a Dodge Ram Cummins without one, now that I've had one!

Other stuff might be worth looking at like required maintenance intervals on things. The 5.9 has an annoyingly low mileage number for valve readjustment -- if you do such things -- as I recall. Couldn't tell ya what things need tending to regularly on the 6.7.

Best thing -- a shop that specializes in Dodge Cummins. I see Rob has convinced @gkainz to change his tuner! LOL. That's the downside... a good Cummins shop will do things right but also convince you to spend lots of $$$$! Haha. If I had that same decision to make, my first call would be to Rob at the shop. But he's a long way from you. MaxTorq Diesel in Golden, CO. He'd want to know all those transmission specifics though, I'm certain. He also does incredibly detailed pre-buy inspections.
 
The problem with the Dodge Cummins trucks is the wrapper. they are maintenance hogs.
A duramax chevy from 05 or newer would be a better choice.
 
The older one it seems to be better taken care of, going by your ratings. That's what I'd get.
Never could see great improvement from 06 to 07

Don't worry about the emissions, that's for the Californians
 
Dieselram.com forum, Maxtorq performance on Facebook or the web, or google for phone number In Golden, CO. Tell him Greg and Nate sent you. Rob's also a C-130 flight engineer so you can talk flying as well as Dodge/Cummings.
 
Tarheelpilot said:
Both are DRW's with the six speed manual.


Edit

Who is Rob? Any way I can get in touch?
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Greg covered it. Give him a ring. Then send him something nice. Haha. (We got him a C-130 wooden model a couple of years ago for helping us out to make sure what we were doing and where we were getting parts from during an emergency repair in Nebraska to replace my VP44 on the way to Oshkosh, was sane. He called me back on a weekend -- unheard of in that biz -- and was apologetic because he'd been out of cell range up rescuing another customer with a different problem in the mountains. Super super guy.)

Now you're just down to gear ratios. Heh. I have the 4.10 and honestly, I feel it's too low.

With my Edge Juice w/Attitude and the light tune from the Tow mode, plus a larger single turbo, and upgraded intake with BHAF and 4" exhaust pipe all the way back, I still limit out on EGT when flogging uphill Colorado style at 6% grade with the 12,500 lb trailer on behind, and the Cummins would pull those hills fine by just grabbing another gear, which is what I have to do to get my foot out of it and less fuel flowing to keep the EGT in check.

People have pointed out online that the stock setup will go way above 1350 on grades, towing, and no harm done, but Cummins has a temp limit and a time limit, and the stock truck doesn't have a pyrometer. So people don't notice. I see it, so I won't hold 1350 longer than about 30 seconds to crest a hill. Time limit in the Cummins manual for the ISB is 90 seconds.

(My older Edge won't defuel on its own via EGT or if it does I've forgotten how, so I alarm at 1300F and just get my foot out of it. If I stay in it and accept 1350 the alarm is squalling the whole time as motivation to knock it off. Ha.)

There's just no way to flow more air through my engine. I have the dreaded light "53" block, and any more turbo above 35 psi and I'm going to crack the block and get to see how fast a Cummins will evacuate all of its oil all over the road. So I limit to 35. Guys with the non-53 block are pushing 50 psi through them after studding the head. (We studded my head anyway, since it was off for my head gasket blowout when the turbo was set up wrong and pushed up to 40, towing. Wastegate was wired shut. Argh... didn't see it...)

Pop goes the gasket... and then it still towed the trailer all the way home, 1200 miles, running on five cylinders. Haha. Just needed a LOT of antifreeze! It vibrated a little and was slow to respond to throttle input. LOL.

That MIGHT be a plus of the 5.9. It's not got the emissions stuff that later 6.7s had which also means it's too stupid to quit/give up. Haha.

Only a few things will stop my truck...

VP44... been there done that... and throwing a serpentine belt because my exhaust brake is vacuum pump driven and when the vacuum, pump fails, it takes the belt out. Fix for that is to carry a serpentine belt sized without the vacuum pump and route around it, slap it on, and keep truckin' until you can buy a new pump. (It's a Jacobs, and the PacBrake nowadays might be a better option... air actuated... electric air pump...)

Even losing gears in the NV5600 doesn't stop them... you just have to work around it until you get home. Haha.

Losing the clutch would do you in, also. Easily fixed by upgrading to a performance clutch, which I haven't done yet. Just milking more miles out of my stock one until it says it doesn't want to play anymore.

I still keep roadside on it, because frankly, I'm a wimp, and I'm not changing an inside dually tire by the side of the road... no freaking way. Haha. Tow it somewhere.
 
The only thing I didn't like about the 02 / 5.9 auto loader, was it would not hold back going down hill. Coming off the coastal range down into Skagway the brakes were smoking when we got to town.
 
I've owned both, still daily drive an 04 with the 5.9. I've never done any performance mods on any of my trucks. 5.9 always got better mileage than my 6.7's did, but like I said mine were always bone stock (and all auto trans). Not sure when engine breaking became standard but I think all my 6.7's had it, great feature if towing in the mountains! Long story short, I wouldn't be afraid of the 6.7 at all, especially if all the emissions crap has been removed, and if it has the engine break and the 5.9 doesn't that's a plus.

BTW, I currently own a 2012 Ford diesel and the 04 Dodge and chose to drive the Dodge as my daily driver, mostly because I trust it more and it's way cheaper to drive. The Ford does have crazy power though!
 
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Tom-D said:
The only thing I didn't like about the 02 / 5.9 auto loader, was it would not hold back going down hill. Coming off the coastal range down into Skagway the brakes were smoking when we got to town.
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Yup, on the old ones with the auto trans you can add an exhaust brake but it also has to have control the lockup of the trans. @gkainz has experience with setting that up, since he has (or had) an older auto truck.

Since the OP is looking at two trucks with NV5600 manual trans, adding an exhaust brake is easy. It's just plug in thing to monitor the throttle position sensor. When activated, it's about a three second delay between zero throttle and application of the exhaust brake, which gives plenty of time to shift and get back in it via the skinny pedal. If you lightly touch the pedal while slowing, the e-brake also doesn't activate, so it's easy to control.

(It's also a good way to know if you have any electronic throttle position sensor problems. Ha.)
 
I've owned both. The 06 will be much better on fuel. Owned about 10 trucks at same time for a business I owned. Bought the 07 sight unseen as I wanted exhaust brake. Hated it and sold it within the month and went back to 5.9. No way would I buy 07 or 08 6.7
 
Theboys said:
I've owned both. The 06 will be much better on fuel. Owned about 10 trucks at same time for a business I owned. Bought the 07 sight unseen as I wanted exhaust brake. Hated it and sold it within the month and went back to 5.9. No way would I buy 07 or 08 6.7
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just to clarify your point - and maybe you did that with the "6.7" on the end - but first half model year '07's came with the 5.9 (mine).
 
gkainz said:
just to clarify your point - and maybe you did that with the "6.7" on the end - but first half model year '07's came with the 5.9 (mine).
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That half-year model thing is so weird with Dodge. They do that all the time.
 
denverpilot said:
That half-year model thing is so weird with Dodge. They do that all the time.
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yep. My earlier truck, the '97 was the last full model year for the 12v 5.9. I really wanted a 1st half year '98 5.9 12V when I was shopping for it, as that model came with the functional door in the back, instead of having to crawl over the pax seat.
 
gkainz said:
yep. My earlier truck, the '97 was the last full model year for the 12v 5.9. I really wanted a 1st half year '98 5.9 12V when I was shopping for it, as that model came with the functional door in the back, instead of having to crawl over the pax seat.
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And here I want to get rid of my '01's mini back suicide door and have something with a FULL door back there, because that half door is completely annoying. :)

We have such first world problems, don't we? haha...
 
MAKG1 said:
Cummins, no. Diesel yes. I do understand how the Diesel performance market works. Just like the gasoline performance market. It's a scam, depending critically on the end user's inability to measure results sufficiently, with a hefty dose of confirmation bias.

It's stupid-easy to LOOK like you did something. And with computer control, it becomes substantially more difficult to fix properly when it breaks.

Oh, and it's a Federal crime. 42 USC 7522(a)(3). Fortunately for you, it's the seller who is subject to the fine. $25000 for a shop, $2500 for an individual. Diesels are no longer exempt unless they are strictly off-road or stationary.
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Having spent the majority of my life in SoCal, I completely understand what you are trying to convey. Being brainwashed by the state, the politics, the laws, restrictions is all you know. Alas, I too was scared of my shadow when I lived there. I spilled some gas once and thought I was going to jail. But, when I moved out, I realized how ignorant I was to reality and how pussified the state had made me. It's basically the Stockholm syndrome on an epic scale. When you say you know about the performance market and claim Cali as your state you loose all credibility in my book. Why? Because I know how the state has one hand gripping your bawls, another with a finger in your butt and the FTB sucking your net worth dry.

I now live in free America. I suggest you too discover what you don't know. And when you hit the AZ border, don't look in the rear view mirror; there's nothing there for you anymore.
 
Unit74 said:
Having spent the majority of my life in SoCal, I completely understand what you are trying to convey. Being brainwashed by the state, the politics, the laws, restrictions is all you know. Alas, I too was scared of my shadow when I lived there. I spilled some gas once and thought I was going to jail. But, when I moved out, I realized how ignorant I was to reality and how pussified the state had made me. It's basically the Stockholm syndrome on an epic scale. When you say you know about the performance market and claim Cali as your state you loose all credibility in my book. Why? Because I know how the state has one hand gripping your bawls, another with a finger in your butt and the FTB sucking your net worth dry.

I now live in free America. I suggest you too discover what you don't know. And when you hit the AZ border, don't look in the rear view mirror; there's nothing there for you anymore.
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You assume I've always lived here.

You also assume I don't have experience fixing all the crap that people try.

It's not like people don't try to do stupid stuff here as well.

Now, take your stupid political BS and shove it right back up your butt, where it came from.
 
MAKG1 said:
You assume I've always lived here.

You also assume I don't have experience fixing all the crap that people try.

It's not like people don't try to do stupid stuff here as well.

Now, take your stupid political BS and shove it right back up your butt, where it came from.
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I've been working on and tuning trucks for over a decade. There is a HUGE industry based on diesel tuning and your are scared silly to even touch your air filter. Just about any average man with a standard 340 piece craftsman combination tool set and an Internet connection and safely, reliably, easily modify and tune today's trucks. It's so effing easy it's silly. Your options are only limited by your credit limit.

I don't blame you for being a product of your environment though. I really don't. I understand your perspective and your choice to live under that warm blanket. But where you went wrong was professing truth when your are essentially a beaten dog chained to a tree by your state. When they went to smog tests on diesels in 2011 I believe it was, it crippled the performance truck industry in Cali. It didn't kill it, but it did neuter it and a lot of shops ended up closing down.

Fortunately, most states citizens are not that stupid and vote out those who try to take away their freedoms. But we know who runs that state and until the next earthquake drops it into the Pacific or legal citizens decide to take back their property and rights, your civil rights, liberties and freedom will undoubtably continue to erode as it subducts beneath your feet.
 
I had a 2007 with the 5.9. A cousin still owns it. That thing got crazy good fuel mileage. I drove a 2000 ford 7.3 back to Nebraska thru Colorado mountains and wife drove 07 dodge 5.9 following. The ford averaged little over 16mpg on way back and the dodge averaged between 24 and 25mpg. So naturally I sold the dodge soon after to cousin and kept the guzzling ford. Well, mainly because I put snowplow on ford but dodges don't seem to do as well with plow as front ends seem little On light side. Had bearing problems and such with plows. Also ford was only one that hanging plow on front didn't cancel factory warranty as I remember.
 
Theboys said:
I had a 2007 with the 5.9. A cousin still owns it. That thing got crazy good fuel mileage. I drove a 2000 ford 7.3 back to Nebraska thru Colorado mountains and wife drove 07 dodge 5.9 following. The ford averaged little over 16mpg on way back and the dodge averaged between 24 and 25mpg. So naturally I sold the dodge soon after to cousin and kept the guzzling ford. Well, mainly because I put snowplow on ford but dodges don't seem to do as well with plow as front ends seem little On light side. Had bearing problems and such with plows. Also ford was only one that hanging plow on front didn't cancel factory warranty as I remember.
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I want a snowplow and have been kicking myself that I kept the Yukon and sold the 3/4 ton Suburban, because the Yukon wouldn't make a good plow truck... and I'm not putting a plow on the Dodge. But I use the Yukon to cart around the dogs a few days a week, and doing that in the Suburban at 8 MPG just didn't make any sense.

What I completely missed in my plan was that I could have just kept the Suburban and let the license and insurance lapse and only operated it on private property. e.g. my driveway. Ha. Oops. Oh well.

At the time, I thought the mini tractor and snowblower three point attachment would do the job. It does, but not as well as a plow truck would. Live and learn.
 
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