New low-cost electronic ignition certified

[flyingcheesehead]

I just heard on Facebook that the SureFly electronic ignition has been certified (as of Tuesday), at least for fixed timing. Someone on the Mooney group already bought one. $1250 for a 4-cylinder, $1550 for a 6-cylinder.

Now, it still only replaces one mag, but that's an improvement. I hope the FAA will eventually certify it to replace both mags.

Anyone else been waiting for these? Thoughts?

I hate mags.

 

[James331]

Cool, but what’s the advantage? How much am I gaining?

How dependent are these on the battery/alternator?

Can they be hand propped?

 

[flyingcheesehead]

Cool, but what’s the advantage? How much am I gaining?

4 mag overhauls that you don't have to do any more, for one. Supposedly, e-ignitions make for easier starts and lower fuel consumption, but it seems nobody pays attention before the upgrade, so it's hard to definitively quantify the improvement.

How dependent are these on the battery/alternator?

It does say that you hook it to a power wire, so I guess they're on the normal electrical system? I had thought that they were going to have their own internal mini-alternator, but I guess not?

Can they be hand propped?

I don't know why not... And it might even be easier!

 

[Eric Stoltz]

Fast cheap and strong?

The MP/variable timing function is installed in the SIM, but can't be turned on yet.

 

[Salty]

No moving parts that need to be overhauled.

There are no moving parts, it’s fully electronic and it requires no software updates.

Except for the moving parts that need to be overhauled.

But understand that the SIM doesn’t have unlimited life. Overhaul pricing hasn’t been determined, but there are simply two bearings and one drive shaft in the four-cylinder version and two additional bearings for the six-cylinder version. That could keep overhaul costs low.

 

[Bell206]

How dependent are these on the battery/alternator?

All electronic ignition systems need external power. I think if it does get certified for both mags there will be a required secondary alternator (PMA type) or a separate battery pack directly wired to one mag.

Can they be hand propped?

Will depend on the EI operating voltage specs. Most people hand prop (starter equipped aircraft) due to a low battery. Sometimes the battery is so low the battery relay can't pull, i.e., no voltage to EI. So unless the EI has a direct connection to battery and/or operates at low static voltages it may be a chore to prop, considering the OEM recommendation is to replace the impulse-coupled mag first. Otherwise you'll be using just a single plain mag to prop over.

 

[falconkidding]

Maybe theyll be better than the eis my flightschool used. We started just putting mags back on cause the eis broke all the time. You'd be flying along and start seeing 25rpm variations that would be your cue to head back to the airport cause the eis was about to go.

It got to the point the school started looking at legal options cause they were going bad so often.

They saved a touch less than a gph on an o320

 

[kyleb]

Maybe theyll be better than the eis my flightschool used.

Any idea which ignition that was?

 

[Ravioli]

Slightly off topic, but my O-320 (E-AB) has an Lightspeed Plasma dual electronic ignition. I know this one is NOT for certificated planes, but some stuff from their website may be on topic:

DUAL ELECTRONIC IGNITION SYSTEMS

The benefits of installing a dual electronic ignition system are numerous. Pilots frequently asked questions regarding the benefits and specifications of dual PLASMA CDI are outlined below.

-An additional 5% gain in fuel efficiency.
When running at sea level and 2,500 rpm, a single PLASMA CDI will yield approximately 10% gain in fuel efficiency. A dual PLASMA CDI system will generate approximately 15% gain in fuel efficiency when run at the same settings. As altitude increases, fuel burn decreases and the benefits of installing a dual ignition system become more and more significant.

-An additional 2% gain in horsepower.
When running at sea level and 2,500 rpm, a single PLASMA CDI will generally produce 4% more horsepower than a mag. A dual PLASMA CDI installation will produce approximately 6% more horsepower compared to two magnetos.

-Is a back-up battery necessary?
If you are using a battery to start your engine, you have sufficient energy to run an ignition system for several hours after an alternator failure. Therefore, a back-up battery is not required when running a dual electronic ignition system. Once the system is running, less than 5V are required to maintain operation, giving a further safety cushion. At this low power level, most other electrical equipment will have long stopped functioning giving the pilot adequate warning.

If you wish to install a back-up battery for your ignition system, refer to the manual aux power supply drawing. It shows a well thought-out concept of an electrical back-up system. Should an electrical failure occur, your ignition systems will continue to run until the supply voltage drops below 5V, well past the point of all other electrical instruments. At this point the ignition systems will stop operating and the pilot can turn on the designated back-up battery. Using the prescribed wiring, only one ignition system will receive power from the aux battery to maximize your "electrical range". All electrical systems must have over-voltage protection.

-Increased engine smoothness.
When a second ignition system is installed, engine smoothness is noticeably improved.

 

[falconkidding]

Any idea which ignition that was?

I want to say electro air or something like that. Maybe we just had bad luck but in the 6 or 7 planes with it when i left there they were down to two installed.

 

[asicer]

I saw noticed that STC on www.aya.org

They claim 1GPH and improved starts. Also, a simplified procedure since it will let you start on BOTH rather than LEFT. Their O-360 version allows for variable timing but the O-320 is limited to fixed.

 

[MooneyDriver78]

Electronic devices directly mounted to a vibrating and hot engine....Im not convinced that they will require less maintenance and be more dependable.
The EIS mentioned has the electronics mounted on the firewall in a separate box. I’ve heard the same from an AP...he has replaced many with old fashion magnetos.

Tom

 

[aftCG]

Let's see, 5% gain in fuel efficiency. If you leave the mixture knob in the same place (pattern operations, short hops, and anything below 3k'), how does it burn less fuel?

2% gain in power is within instrument margin of error and unlikely documented over a large number of Dyno tests.

If you have to add a second alternator what does that do to your ROI, not to mention your W&B?

Lastly, and I know this never happens: if you smell smoke in the cockpit and have to shut off the master switch, how long will it run?

I enjoy that my cars haven't had a distributor in years, but I do have a bucket full of failed coils (COPs) - some of them nearly new - that prove the 1930s didn't have it all wrong.

 

[Kenny Phillips]

Let's see, 5% gain in fuel efficiency. If you leave the mixture knob in the same place (pattern operations, short hops, and anything below 3k'), how does it burn less fuel?

2% gain in power is within instrument margin of error and unlikely documented over a large number of Dyno tests.

If you have to add a second alternator what does that do to your ROI, not to mention your W&B?

Lastly, and I know this never happens: if you smell smoke in the cockpit and have to shut off the master switch, how long will it run?

I enjoy that my cars haven't had a distributor in years, but I do have a bucket full of failed coils (COPs) - some of them nearly new - that prove the 1930s didn't have it all wrong.

The 1930's had it mostly wrong. I have hundreds of thousands of miles on evil modern car and truck engines, with zero failures. Never had an issue with EFI, either, from sea level to over 13K feet, in a land vehicle. And they run at those elevations on crappy ethanol-laced gasoline, and they don't overheat or burn a quart of oil or more with every petrol fill up. Oh, and my car parks itself. Give me in a plane what's in my car, please.

 

[MooneyDriver78]

I want to say electro air or something like that. Maybe we just had bad luck but in the 6 or 7 planes with it when i left there they were down to two installed.

https://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/eppages/electroaircertignitionkits.php?clickkey=10529


Tom

 

[Ravioli]

Let's see,
5% gain in fuel efficiency.
2% gain in power

The quote from the site said additional. Meaning additional for Dual vs Single EI.

If you have to add a second alternator what does that do to your ROI, not to mention your W&B?

Some do a standby alternator, some do a second battery. Not sure what the certificated ones will require.

Lastly, and I know this never happens: if you smell smoke in the cockpit and have to shut off the master switch, how long will it run?

If you have a safety circuit you energize it direct to the battery. It will run as long as the battery holds up. Theoretically if there is smoke in the cockpit you may want to be in glider mode, since the smoke may be electrical but may be from burning dead dinosaurs. Not sure what this fail mode has to do with choice of ignition systems.

 

[aftCG]

The quote from the site said additional. Meaning additional for Dual vs Single EI.



Some do a standby alternator, some do a second battery. Not sure what the certificated ones will require.



If you have a safety circuit you energize it direct to the battery. It will run as long as the battery holds up. Theoretically if there is smoke in the cockpit you may want to be in glider mode, since the smoke may be electrical but may be from burning dead dinosaurs. Not sure what this fail mode has to do with choice of ignition systems.

Fair enough on your first two points. As for the third, it has everything to do with my choice. The beauty of a magneto is that it needs no outside help.

It is actually very easy to tell the difference between dinosaur smoke and burning wiring/electronics. The latter can (can, not will) have it's source removed by flipping the master switch. Or does no one read their emergency checklists?
That's stressful enough thanks. Killing the engine too pretty much removes the option of landing at an airport. No thanks.

 

[Ravioli]

One can stop the dinosaur smoke by closing the throttle, mixture, and switching the tanks to off.

Still a glider.

 

[Dana]

It does say that you hook it to a power wire, so I guess they're on the normal electrical system? I had thought that they were going to have their own internal mini-alternator, but I guess not?

All electronic ignition systems need external power.

Some, like the Pmag, have their own built in generator so they don't need external power. Of course that means more moving parts to wear, and you lose the ability to hand prop (they require a certain minimum rpm to generate enough electricity), so you need to keep one impulse coupled magneto if that's important to you.

One advantage of EI is the higher spark energy, meaning (at least in the experimental world) you can run cheap automotive plugs with larger gaps, leading to easier starting and less plug fouling.

I've read less than wonderful reports about the reliability of the various new EI systems on other boards, though.

 

[kyleb]

I've read less than wonderful reports about the reliability of the various new EI systems on other boards, though.

I've experienced two different electronic ignitions. The first one (electroair) lasted for 700 hours, then died and could not be resuscitated because the manufacturer had moved on in the 8-10 years since I'd bought it and was not supporting my system any longer. In those 700 hours, I had 2 ignition failures that required a $50 sensnsor replacement. The second system (pMag) is at 400-500 hours on my airplane and has worked perfectly.

The challenge (IMO) with electronic ignitions is that if one dies, the support in the field is very thin. No local A&P is going to have parts or expertise in fixing one, and that local A&P isn't going to have one sitting on the shelf either. With a magneto, you have a chance that there's a guy at any modest sized or larger field who has a spare mag, a condenser on the shelf, or whatever and will be able to get the ignition back online same day. With the EI's you're probably looking at getting a part next day at best, and then the A&P is going to have to educate him/herself on how to fix/reinstall the thing.

I was AOG for about a week the first time my Electroair failed. The vendor (a guy operating out of his basement at the time - 18 years ago) was at SNF and couldn't be reached to diagnose the problem and/or send replacement parts. Similarly, when that ignition failed for the final time, there was no support network for it - Electroair had moved on to a new design and wasn't able to support legacy systems.

FYI, I've always kept one mag on the airplane and have had one mag failure in about 1800 "mag" hours, as opposed to 3 electronic ignition failures in 1100 EI hours.

 

[Bell206]

like the Pmag,

If you mean the E-Mags, they are the exception. However, so are the FADEC systems for recips as they use electronic ignition modules as well. From my perspective, the failure rates on current aviation EI systems coupled with airframe electrical failure stats, still doesn't provide enough advantage over a properly maintained mag system. As such I didn't recommend the EI swap to my customers.

 

[MauleSkinner]

One can stop the dinosaur smoke by closing the throttle, mixture, and switching the tanks to off.

Still a glider.

So you're advocating glider mode for electrical smoke as well, or is there some practical point to this statement that I'm missing?

 

[Ravioli]

So you're advocating glider mode for electrical smoke as well, or is there some practical point to this statement that I'm missing?

Basically, YES.

Any smoke or flames, shut it all down and land, post haste. How long do you press on with 'suspected' electrical issue(s) but fast turning prop?

@aftCG said he could kill the source of electrical fire with the master switch. Problem is that if it's an actual panel fire it might not still need to be energized, right? At what point was the smoke detected?

I stated that killing the source of an engine fire is equally easy.

 

[MauleSkinner]

Basically, YES.

Any smoke or flames, shut it all down and land, post haste. How long do you press on with 'suspected' electrical issue(s) but fast turning prop?

@aftCG said he could kill the source of electrical fire with the master switch. Problem is that if it's an actual panel fire it might not still need to be energized, right? At what point was the smoke detected?

I stated that killing the source of an engine fire is equally easy.

Having had electrical smoke a couple of times when the airplane was still flyable after shutting down the electrical system, I'd tend to disagree that electrical smoke is worthy of a dead-stick landing in a field. Especially if I could fly 15 minutes and shoot an approach rather than break out of a 200-ft overcast with 1/2 mile vis with no engine. I hold the same opinion about an alternator failure in IMC...If I've got an engine, a compass, and some gas, I can get to good weather. Not if my engine quits without electricity.

I haven't looked it up, but I'm guessing certification rules prohibit a loss of electricity from killing the engine as well.

YMMV.

 

[Bell206]

but I'm guessing certification rules prohibit a loss of electricity from killing the engine as well.

§33.37 Ignition system.
Each spark ignition engine must have a dual ignition system with at least two spark plugs for each cylinder and two separate electric circuits with separate sources of electrical energy, or have an ignition system of equivalent in-flight reliability.

The Continental IOF-240 met the requirements of "equivalent in-flight reliability" so it is possible to get certified.

 

[hindsight2020]

As someone eyeballing airplane upgrades like the Lance with a single drive siamese magneto, I'm much less interested in electronic ignition for the timing advance, which I consider superfluous for the power band operating range of our applications anyways. Instead, an electronic-ignition/conventional-magneto 50/50 setup would allow for the removal of the mechanical impulse coupling, which in my conversation with folks on the piper forum is agreed to be the critical point of failure in these setups. In a two-magneto setup like my Arrow that treasonous plastic-ridden impulse coupling isn't a problem, as the coupling can fail and knock out my starting mag, merely leaving me running on the other one. But on the siamese setup, that coupling is placed in front of the only case drive providing ignition to both circuits, and when it grenades it is a fundamental problem.

An alternative where EI enters the picture is having said EI taking the place of the "starting magneto". This would allow a siamese accessory case to have no mechanical coupling anymore, instead relying on the electronic ignition side of the hybrid to retard the timing for start, then reverting to normal operation on a siamese mag with the left side of the housing capped off. Even if the EI side were to fail, it wouldn't mechanically knock out the physical drive to the magneto as there is no coupling to fail, allowing the conventional magneto to continue running. At worst, you simply lose starting capability when you shut down until you can repair the EI side of the system.

So far the only solution available to the siamese problem that mirrors this setup is terribly expensive and too high on the parts count for my taste. It doesn't appear surefly is talking about the siamese solution, but I'll def keep watching this specific market, as siamese cores are finite in this market. As they get condemned, the eventuality of a forced replacement for a fleet of engines that is actually more common than people give it credit for, can become an AOG nightmare before long. Electronic ignition could be an affordable alternative to forced retrofitting of non-siamese accessory case engine variants (aka non -D suffix Lycoming engines).

 

[kyleb]

As someone eyeballing airplane upgrades like the Lance with a single drive siamese magneto,

Is it possible (and legal) to swap accessory cases on your engine to use a conventional twin mag setup? If so, I assume anyone who has the siamese mag would make the switch at overhaul time, leaving some number of siamese mags available on the used market.

 

[hindsight2020]

Is it possible (and legal) to swap accessory cases on your engine to use a conventional twin mag setup? If so, I assume anyone who has the siamese mag would make the switch at overhaul time, leaving some number of siamese mags available on the used market.

Oh it's legal.... for the entire engine to be swapped out. Most people consider it non-economic, as it involves exchanging engines at overhaul costs since core credit can be a problem.

The usual outcome I've heard is the use of an STC to swap out the entire engine and install a non-siamese (non -D suffix) variant of the same engine (such STC exists for the Piper Lance). I've heard of one-off field approvals for the same scheme in a Dakota (no current STC that I'm aware of for this).

As to the physical ability to swap accessory cases? I think it's physically possible, but it would appear the same economic non-starter scenarios would apply, especially for an engine not otherwise in line for an overhaul.

The TCDS drives the narrative. Some TCDS for the Mooney 20 or the cardinal include both non-D and D suffix versions of the same engine as allowable options for installation. Others like the Dakota and Lance do not. That's where the field approvals or existing STCs for these swaps come into play. An EI solution to the single drive magneto arrangement engine would have the potential to be much more affordable by comparison, imo.

 

[kyleb]

Oh it's legal.... for the entire engine to be swapped out. Most people consider it non-economic, as it involves exchanging engines at overhaul costs since core credit can be a problem.

The usual outcome I've heard is the use of an STC to swap out the entire engine and install a non-siamese (non -D suffix) variant of the same engine (such STC exists for the Piper Lance). I've heard of one-off field approvals for the same scheme in a Dakota (no current STC that I'm aware of for this).

As to the physical ability to swap accessory cases? I think it's physically possible, but it would appear the same economic non-starter scenarios would apply, especially for an engine not otherwise in line for an overhaul.

My premise was "at overhaul". But if it is possible to physically change the accessory case (without making a bunch of other changes), well, changing an accessory case isn't a monumental job. Maybe a day or two for a mechanic. If you're handy, you could pull the engine and remove the accessory case yourself, then have your mechanic install the new accessory case and reinstall the engine. All presuming you can get the paperwork approved on the change.

 

[chartbundle]

Oh it's legal.... for the entire engine to be swapped out. Most people consider it non-economic, as it involves exchanging engines at overhaul costs since core credit can be a problem.
...
As to the physical ability to swap accessory cases? I think it's physically possible, but it would appear the same economic non-starter scenarios would apply, especially for an engine not otherwise in line for an overhaul.

I've heard, but not verified that Lycoming is waiving the core difference charge if you want a reman without siamese mags just to get them out of circulation.

Also, there was a MooneySpace thread on doing the de-siameseing at overhaul and all the parts involved, google will probably find it.

Personally, if I had known my prop strike teardown was going to end up as an overhaul, I would have made it a reman instead to change the mags.