New club, new airport, new controllers

[Justin M]

Hi,

TLDR: Controllers at new-for-me airport clear folks for simultaneous use of the active runway.

I am in the process of joining a new club which has 5 infrequntly-used planes to fly. Today I flew with the Grand Poo-Bah of the club (GPB hereafter, not intended to be demeaning, just an affectionate nick name) for the first of my 3 (minimum) check out flights (for the first plane, more on that later).

The controllers at the new airport are ... um ... let me tell you a hypothetical story.

Cessna 172 is cleared for the option on base when some pilot is holding short of the active runway and calls tower. Tower says, "hold short runway xx, landing traffic." Pilot says "roger." Tower says, "hold short runway xx." Pilot says "roger."

If this happened in real life and if I were the pilot on base, I'd say something out loud (not on frequency) like, "Tower needs you to read back 'hold short runway xx', that's why she repeated it." I'm one of those people who talk to people even when I know they can't hear me.

That's when, potentially, as the Cessna pilot is turning base to final and the tower gives up and says "NCBYCW" (can't believe you can't wait) , "Cleared for takeoff runway xx."

"Cessna 172, do you see the departing traffic on runway xx?"

Um.

Then, as the hypothetical pilot is using the runway instructed to exit at taxiway charlie, controller clears a different Cessna 172 to take off on runway xx.

Um. Hey, I'm still using this runway, I haven't even made it to taxiway Charlie. What if I overshoot by accident, or blow a tire breaking too hard?

Purely hypothetically.

It's a little less by-the-book than I'm used to at other airports.

Considering how exacting GPB is regarding my on boarding to the club (once I finish checkout in Cessna 172-M, other Cessna 172s (N and L) will require separate checkout flights once I'm cleared to schedule and fly 172-M), I'm surprised by the relaxed standards in the tower.

Thanks for reading!

Justin

 

[Zeldman]

You are aware that it is Ok to have more than one airplane on the runway..??

 

[Lachlan]

So confused. The hell just happened?

 

[murphey]

Hi,

TLDR: Controllers at new-for-me airport clear folks for simultaneous use of the active runway.

I am in the process of joining a new club which has 5 infrequntly-used planes to fly. Today I flew with the Grand Poo-Bah of the club (GPB hereafter, not intended to be demeaning, just an affectionate nick name) for the first of my 3 (minimum) check out flights (for the first plane, more on that later).

The controllers at the new airport are ... um ... let me tell you a hypothetical story.

Cessna 172 is cleared for the option on base when some pilot is holding short of the active runway and calls tower. Tower says, "hold short runway xx, landing traffic." Pilot says "roger." Tower says, "hold short runway xx." Pilot says "roger."

If this happened in real life and if I were the pilot on base, I'd say something out loud (not on frequency) like, "Tower needs you to read back 'hold short runway xx', that's why she repeated it." I'm one of those people who talk to people even when I know they can't hear me.

That's when, potentially, as the Cessna pilot is turning base to final and the tower gives up and says "NCBYCW" (can't believe you can't wait) , "Cleared for takeoff runway xx."

"Cessna 172, do you see the departing traffic on runway xx?"

Um.

Then, as the hypothetical pilot is using the runway instructed to exit at taxiway charlie, controller clears a different Cessna 172 to take off on runway xx.

Um. Hey, I'm still using this runway, I haven't even made it to taxiway Charlie. What if I overshoot by accident, or blow a tire breaking too hard?

Purely hypothetically.

It's a little less by-the-book than I'm used to at other airports.

Considering how exacting GPB is regarding my on boarding to the club (once I finish checkout in Cessna 172-M, other Cessna 172s (N and L) will require separate checkout flights once I'm cleared to schedule and fly 172-M), I'm surprised by the relaxed standards in the tower.

Thanks for reading!

Justin

Around here, the controller will explicitly tell the pilot the pilot must state they are holding at runway xx.

 

[GRG55]

You are aware that it is Ok to have more than one airplane on the runway..??

I thought that was only when there's colored dots such as Oshkosh.

 

[455 Bravo Uniform]

Call the discrepancy in to the GPB of controllers. Pilot's fault, but you're going to get zero traction there. Go to the proper FAA channels if you have a safety concern.

 

[Hank S]

I thought that was only when there's colored dots such as Oshkosh.

I thought for us, tower only needs 3000' separation on the runway? But whaddo I know, I'm not based at a towered field now, and never have been in the past. Don't even visit them very often anymore . . .

But to your specific situation, clearances from the tower are pretty unrelated to the Club procedures. What surprises me is checkouts for multiple 172s. Do some of them have different equipment installed, and they want to make sure you are competent with things like different GPS and / or autopilots, engine monitors, etc.?

 

[GRG55]

...But to your specific situation, clearances from the tower are pretty unrelated to the Club procedures. What surprises me is checkouts for multiple 172s. Do some of them have different equipment installed, and they want to make sure you are competent with things like different GPS and / or autopilots, engine monitors, etc.?

Could be that. Or could just be the insurance coverage rules.

 

[AKBill]

I thought for us, tower only needs 3000' separation on the runway?

Questioned a controller about the 3000' and was told that's the rule...

 

[Velocity173]

Yes, tower should have said "readback hold short instructions" vs just issuing the instruction again. No biggie though unless said aircraft somehow starts to roll. No reason to believe they would roll without a clearance.

As far as you not being done with the runway. The controller can use anticipated separation. Meaning, they can clear the aircraft as long as by the time they start takeoff roll, they have reasonable assurance you'll be clear of the runway. 3000/4500/6000 ft don't apply for dept vs arrival.

Either way, both situations I wouldn't consider any major infraction by the tower.

 

[Lindberg]

That's when, potentially, as the Cessna pilot is turning base to final and the tower gives up and says "NCBYCW" (can't believe you can't wait) , "Cleared for takeoff runway xx."

"Cessna 172, do you see the departing traffic on runway xx?"

Hypothetically, was the Cessna flying a giant pattern such that the tower thought NCBYCW would only be holding for a sec and then realized he had plenty of time to go before the Cessna got on the ground?

 

[Sundancer]

172? Not doing anything very fast, and this situation sounds like a non-event, really. Plenty of time and distance twixt the players.

 

[Kritchlow]

Yes, tower should have said "readback hold short instructions" vs just issuing the instruction again. No biggie though unless said aircraft somehow starts to roll. No reason to believe they would roll without a clearance.

As far as you not being done with the runway. The controller can use anticipated separation. Meaning, they can clear the aircraft as long as by the time they start takeoff roll, they have reasonable assurance you'll be clear of the runway. 3000/4500/6000 ft don't apply for dept vs arrival.

Either way, both situations I wouldn't consider any major infraction by the tower.

Anticipated separation.... yup. See this all the time. Aircraft over the the numbers and we get line up &a waite. Even the new fancy color lights anticipate... it's quite interesting.

 

[denverpilot]

Anticipated separation.... yup. See this all the time. Aircraft over the the numbers and we get line up &a waite. Even the new fancy color lights anticipate... it's quite interesting.

Looking forward to seeing that interesting lighting system thing.

Same here, what was described, happens all the time. Almost never ends up in any sort of loss of separation. If the aircraft cleared for takeoff had become disabled or stopped their takeoff roll, the Cessna on final would have been told to go around.

It's pretty common to hear "no delay, traffic is a Citation on a X mile final, cleared for takeoff Runway X" when things get busy with the mix of speeds and types we have constantly. If you're not ready, an "unable" suffices.

They won't even let you anywhere near a hold line without having stated that your run up is complete to the Ground controller, or they'll taxi you to one of four (used to be three) dedicated run-up areas that all have solid lines across their exits. You need a new taxi clearance to get out of them.

 

[MD11Pilot]

How many controllers were on duty in the tower when this took place? We are told at our home (work) airport that if they do not have X number on duty, in the tower that they cannot clear a plane for takeoff and then issue a line up and wait to the next plane but must wait for a time separation. This can be frustrating because I try to time my taxi so as to continue the taxi onto the runway instead of stopping the aircraft. We have to make a 90 degree turn in a "tight" area with our engines pointed at a building with the doors of the building open.

Your statement that the controller should have said "Read back hold instructions" is correct.

 

[Radar Contact]

The controllers at the new airport are ... um ...

Efficient/Expeditious/Doing their job?

can't believe you can't wait

Did it work or result in a go-around? I'm guessing it worked so what was most expeditious for everyone? When I worked at a busy GA tower I would routinely tell the guy on final "separation is good, traffic ahead only needs to be 3000 feet ahead", to ensure no self induced pilot go-arounds.

Um. Hey, I'm still using this runway, I haven't even made it to taxiway Charlie.

As already mentioned, it's not your runway even though you may be using it. A/C may be also using it 3000/4500/6000 feet ahead of or behind you. Additionally, anticipated separation has already been explained to you.

What if I overshoot by accident, or blow a tire breaking too hard?

The controllers would do some of that Air Traffic Stuff and cancel/send around the other aircraft.

It's a little less by-the-book than I'm used to at other airports.

Without having been there I can't comment for sure but it sounds like they are probably equally by the book just more traffic or aggressive than you are use to and you are finding out about things in the book to help expedite traffic you didn't know about.

*Disclaimer: You are PIC of your aircraft. If at any time you feel safety is compromised do what you feel is necessary. Not all controllers are the same. Even the best of them are still human and there will always be the chance of human error any time humans are involved.

 

[SkyDog58]

Wow, that's horrible. A separate checkout for each 172? That is insane. I could see if one was an S with a G1000 but a L, M and N model? Looks like a CFI ran club.

 

[MAKG1]

Wow, that's horrible. A separate checkout for each 172? That is insane. I could see if one was an S with a G1000 but a L, M and N model? Looks like a CFI ran club.

I had one outfit insist on a checkout for a 172SP separately from a 172N, even after I rattled off the differences from memory. I declined.

They also wanted a new 182 checkout for lack of currency even with hundreds of hours of other 182 time in the logbook. Just not 182Q time. They can bite me.

 

[RyanB]

It took me a few reads to actually figure out what was going on here. LOL

Um. Hey, I'm still using this runway, I haven't even made it to taxiway Charlie. What if I overshoot by accident, or blow a tire breaking too hard?

I don't recall ever hearing traffic holding short or in position to receive their takeoff clearance prior to the landing traffic exiting the runway.

Two aircraft can be on the same runway at a time, that's not uncommon, but usually doesn't seem to happen unless it's at a busier airport (from what I've seen).

Understand that if you feel another aircraft has not accepted or read back instructions, that it's okay to verify with the tower that they are in-fact doing as they have been told. That's part of being a safe PIC.

Wow, that's horrible. A separate checkout for each 172? That is insane. I could see if one was an S with a G1000 but a L, M and N model? Looks like a CFI ran club.

Yea no doubt, that's pretty asinine.

 

[Lachlan]

They won't even let you anywhere near a hold line without having stated that your run up is complete to the Ground controller, or they'll taxi you to one of four (used to be three) dedicated run-up areas that all have solid lines across their exits. You need a new taxi clearance to get out of them.

I miss Centennial. Does that mean that there's no longer a runup area at the end of the hangar row in Hotel or near Charlie 1? (I think C1 was temporary during construction, though.)

 

[Justin M]

Thanks for all the responses.

 

[denverpilot]

I miss Centennial. Does that mean that there's no longer a runup area at the end of the hangar row in Hotel or near Charlie 1? (I think C1 was temporary during construction, though.)

C-1 is still a run up area and is completely overwhelmed with airplanes doing run ups on busy days. They opened one way down at the departure end of 28 now, at C-5, and two on Alpha, one up near the self serve and one not quite to the ILS area down south.

Airport Ops is "strongly discouraging" run ups way east on the east ramp area or in hangar rows nowadays. (You can kinda get away with it if all the hangar doors are closed, but the ops truck will give you the stink eye. Haha.)