New and Don’t know what to do.

Discussion in 'Flight Following' started by Madison890, Jun 1, 2019.

  1. Tom-D

    Tom-D Taxi to Parking PoA Supporter

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  2. 3393RP

    3393RP Pattern Altitude

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    Again, there is no specific statement by the OP the annual is/was a two day affair. He said it will be completed Tuesday, and that he hopes to fly the aircraft to NC on Thursday. The fact he has posted photos of work in progress and mentioned interactions with his mechanic indicate the process was put in motion several days ago.
     
  3. Ryanb

    Ryanb Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    Right. Just note that I said ‘IF’ it only lasted two days. It’s still a bit unclear for everyone as to when it began.
     
  4. apr911

    apr911 Pre-takeoff checklist

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    I just meant in the perspective that the mechanic has already started work on the plane. The annual inspection itself might only take 2 days but if the mechanic has already spent a month scouring the plane doing maintenance... Did the annual technically take longer than 2 days?


    Considering registration is good for 3 years, this means the plane was last registered about a year before it was last in annual (which mades it even more unairworthy being both de-registered and out of annual).

    I also wouldn't draw much of a conclusion from the registration. It costs $5.00 to register a plane for 3 years. That's not a very high bar. A lot of people will pay $5.00 just to avoid losing the N-Number.

    As to the experience. I'm a bit more mixed on this opinion.

    The OP is a 0-time initial PPL student. They're not prepared to plan the XC themselves or even have the base understanding needed to discuss many of the considerations of this particular XC and retain the information. Same goes for the flying, assuming they're not already saturated at the outset, they'll quickly reach their saturation point and have reduced educational returns. There's a reason why initial flights are typically kept short.

    There's not going to be a lot of things educationally for the OP to learn anyway... We're talking 2-3 landings and takeoffs and the rest of the flight should be enroute, straight-and-level flight. Sure you could break off and do some basic maneuvers but in order for the flight to be completed in a single day the flight needs to be conducted with minimal dilly-dallying. You're probably looking at close to 10 hours from start to finish with the timezone change, preflight/runup, speed of flight, fuel/lunch stop, etc. Even with 14 hour days that's not accounting for winds, deviations or other reasons it might take longer.

    Additionally, in the event an issue does occur on the flight, it will be before they are ready to handle such a situation and it may well rock their confidence in the plane and turn them off flying before they even really get started.

    Lastly, having a passenger, especially a novice, increases the risk and complexity of the ferry flight and if I were to ferry the plane, I would prefer to be solo for that reason though I wouldn't bar the op from their own plane and would therefore be willing to have the Op on board as a passenger/semi-student/helper. Having them on board as a full-student looking to log their own time and having to teach (and assume the liability of it; especially given the Op's lack of a CFI to hand them off to at the other end and the fact that willfully or not, they've already flown in the plane in opposition to the FAR's with it out of annual) effectively increases the risk and complexity and would mean I (and likely any other CFI) would expect to be compensated for the instruction time above any compensation received for the ferry flight. This is going to increase the OPs total cost for very little gain.

    Oh and let's not forget the rule of primacy and the fact that what the one-time CFI teaches them on this flight is likely to be different than their future CFI's methods and program...
     
  5. Cap'n Jack

    Cap'n Jack Final Approach

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    One of three things....
    - Some of it evaporates
    - Some of it reacts, forming rust or other corrosion (as seen in another post in this thread), or interacting with various alkenes, or other compounds, to form other compounds such alcohols.
    - Some of it sits in the engine, either separating from the oil or staying suspended as an emulsion.

    I'm sure his mechanic checked to see things are OK in the engine.
     
  6. Tom-D

    Tom-D Taxi to Parking PoA Supporter

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    Water will not stay on parts long, Eventually it will condense and run down to the lowest point in the engine and set there until disturbed.

    Most engines I see are placed in storage after a flight when the pilot never returns, they will set for years with no problem. 34V was flown from Minn. to Wa. then placed in a hangar, it sat until 2013, there was virtually no corrosion in the cylinders, just a brown smudge you could wipe out with a rag.
     
  7. Cap'n Jack

    Cap'n Jack Final Approach

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    So, just as I said.
    - Some of it evaporated.
    -
    = Some of it reacted
    -
    = Some of it sits in the engine, either separating from the oil or staying suspended as an emulsion.

    I hope the OP's mechanic found things as you described.
     
  8. Tom-D

    Tom-D Taxi to Parking PoA Supporter

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    Fact is, no one should make a flat statement that all engines that have sat a long time have corrosion problems.
    I've said on here many times all engines are Pandora's box, because there are way too many factors involved in the chemistry of corrosion, for all engines to be the same.
     
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  9. Peter Anderson

    Peter Anderson Pre-takeoff checklist

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    I would just pay someone to bring it out. If you log those hours it will be tougher to brag that you solo’d in under 10!


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  10. Ryanb

    Ryanb Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    As if that’s something to really brag about.
     
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  11. Dan Thomas

    Dan Thomas Final Approach

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    You really should have read that article I posted. A couple of excerpts:

    Early in this research project, it was clear that there is little agreement on many facts relating to aircraft engine corrosion. There are even facts that go completely against popularly held opinions. The first and most obvious is the popular adage "oil and water don’t mix."

    When an engine oil is exposed to heat, a process called "oxidation" is started. When oxidized oil is mixed with moisture as discussed earlier it often forms an acid which attacks metal surfaces.

    The water doesn't just run down and under the oil. When the engine is running it mixes, since there so much oil being flung around in the case, and you get that frothy brown crud: an emulsion of oil and water. In the presence of metal it reacts to form acids. The process has been understood for a long time, and in automobiles the PCV system and much closer tolerances cleared it up. Aircraft engines, being air-cooled and needing larger clearances, and having high manifold pressures, can't use a PCV system, so that moisture that gets past the rings while the engine is warming up and clearances are still large, has to be driven off by flying the thing, getting the clearances closed up and having the heat do the job. Your 34V was flown from MN to WA and put in a hangar, hot, and didn't have any chance to build a bunch of moisture in the case before shutdown. Engines like that WILL be found clean and in good condition years later, as long as they're not ground-run in the meantime.

    From https://www.machinerylubrication.com/Read/14/lubricant-oxidation

    ...we read:

    Lubricant oxidation is serious business. Not only is the lubricant’s performance diminished, the acids produced can increase corrosive component wear. It is important to understand the process and root causes of oxidation and the warning signals generated by oil analysis.

    Sulfuric, hydrochloric, nitric, phophoric and carboxylic acids have been found in engine oils. I'm sure there must be chemists around here than can post the chemical formulae for the metal-catalyzed reactions between the oil, combustion byproducts and moisture that create the acids. Or we can just read the stuff the engineers publish for us and not worry about what molecules do with each other, but instead deal with the problem.

    More: https://www.machinerylubrication.com/Read/192/water-contaminant-oil

    Not only does water have a direct harmful affect on machine components, but it also plays a direct role in the aging rate of lubricating oils. The presence of water in a lubricating oil can cause the progress of oxidation to increase tenfold, resulting in premature aging of the oil, particularly in the presence of catalytic metals such as copper, lead and tin.


    In addition, certain types of synthetic oils such as phosphate esters and dibasic esters are known to react with water, resulting in the destruction of the base stock and the formation of acids.


    It is not just the base oil that can be affected by moisture contamination. Certain additives such as sulfurous AW and EP type additives and phenolic antioxidants are readily hydrolyzed by water, resulting in both additive mortality and the formation of acidic by-products.


    These acidic by-products can then cause corrosive wear, particularly in components containing soft metals such as Babbitt used with journal bearings and bronze and brass components. Other additives such as demulsifying agents, dispersants, detergents and rust inhibitors can be washed away by excessive moisture. This results in sludge and sediment buildup, filter plugging and poor oil/water demulsibility.

    From http://www.lubewhiz.in/lubrication_enemy_water_II.html

    While water may not directly react with hydrocarbons, it helps to promote base oil oxidation, particularly in the presence of wear metals like Fe, Cu, & Sn which act as catalysts. In some types of fluids, water can react with the base oil resulting in the formation of sludge, acids and deposits. Control systems using Phosphate Ester fluids are particularly susceptible to such hydrolysis. Sulphur Phosphorus EP additives can release sulphuric & phosphoric acids in the presence of water. Water also attacks, hydrolyzes , agglomerates, consumes orsimply washes away a host of other additives such as AW, Rust Inhibitors, Antioxidants, Dispersants, Detergents, Demulsfying agents. Once such additive depletion has taken place rapid deterioration of lubricant & attack on machinery sets in. By-products of oil degradation can react with emulsified water to form resinious, sticky materials. Often, Sludge and Varnish formation along with the resultant restrictions on oil flow, valve stiction, bearing metal wipeout, etc can be directly attributed to the presence of water in the oil.

    https://www.lelubricants.com/documents/resources/water_contamination_0509.pdf is a really good paper on what happens between oil and water.

    I could go on, but maybe you get the point?
     
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  12. Dana

    Dana Line Up and Wait

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    As an unlicensed passenger, he has no legal liability for the flight, it's all on the pilot in command.
     
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  13. Peter Anderson

    Peter Anderson Pre-takeoff checklist

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    It sure is hard to tell a joke on this board.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
     
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  14. Tom-D

    Tom-D Taxi to Parking PoA Supporter

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    Good articles on oils and lubricants, and what happens in operating engines. Now tell us about what happens in an engine that is sludge up and dormant for long periods.
     
  15. Banjo33

    Banjo33 Line Up and Wait

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    Let me FTFY, lol. ;)
     
  16. apr911

    apr911 Pre-takeoff checklist

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    Sure but PIC or not, doesnt mean you should go out and volunteer this type of information.
     
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  17. Tom-D

    Tom-D Taxi to Parking PoA Supporter

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    How many folks here will understand when I say that the aircraft in this thread will under go a "wakeup period"
    All airworthiness issues will be made airworthy, but there will be a long list of "these need to be addressed" too.
     
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  18. ircphoenix

    ircphoenix En-Route

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    Arguing with Tom-D is like playing chess with a pigeon...
     
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  19. Sinistar

    Sinistar Pattern Altitude

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    If this is true it would seem all the concern of it just sitting there is getting pretty out of hand. The owner (now seller) flying it out of annual is between that person and the FAA. For all we know @Madison890 is gonna have a safe, flyable plane for about $15K. He will learn to fly in it and save a bit more. And then he'll decided to what to fix and add along the way.

    To be sure it was flown (when out of the annual) there should be a pretty decent increase on the tach from the last annual until what it read when you bought it. If you know these two numbers would you mind sharing?'

    Unless you have a really crooked mechanic working on the plane, they know you are about to fly it over 500miles back home and have a lot on the line so your new (to you) plane is gonna make it home just fine. Of course you will still find other things wrong but it should be airworthy and safe.

    Good luck on your flight home! Wasn't sure if you'd ride with or not. It is so cool to see these older planes made to fly again vs rot away.
     
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  20. SoCal RV Flyer

    SoCal RV Flyer Pattern Altitude

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    ...or wrestling with a pig in the mud. You're both gonna get dirty, and the pig seems to like it! :D
     
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  21. Tom-D

    Tom-D Taxi to Parking PoA Supporter

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    You don't have a clue, so you bad mouth. Too bad you try to drag the thread down into the mud.

    Simply shows us who you are.
     
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  22. ircphoenix

    ircphoenix En-Route

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    No NTSB reports with my name attached to them my friend.
     
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  23. Ryanb

    Ryanb Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    What’s your point?

    I know a few people personally who have been involved in NTSB reports. Doesn’t make them any less credible.

    Tom has been an A&P for decades. Everyone should be thankful that he still contributes his wealth of knowledge to this board.
     
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  24. ircphoenix

    ircphoenix En-Route

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    I mean.... Okay.
     
  25. Luigi

    Luigi Pre-takeoff checklist

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    What I really want to know is if you are going to reinstall the toilet depicted in picture #3?
     
  26. SkyDog58

    SkyDog58 Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    Canis Non Grata
    And how do you know what will happen with this plane? I didn't know you were involved with it.
     
  27. Ryanb

    Ryanb Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    He’s just speaking in general terms. If it’s undergoing an extensive annual as the OP says, than its likely that the kinks will get worked out and will become airworthy again. Obviously we won’t know until it flies, but Tom is correct in what he’s saying.
     
  28. IK04

    IK04 Cleared for Takeoff

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    Damn the internet.
     
  29. IK04

    IK04 Cleared for Takeoff

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    I did quite a bit of training at Maxton-laurinburg. I see it is now called Laurinburg-Maxton. Alphabetization Nazis have to change everything...

    I also see they have reopened runway 31-13. It has a new displaced threshold because there is a 747 with no engines blocking the taxiway, ha ha! :eek:
     
  30. benyflyguy

    benyflyguy Pattern Altitude

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    That’s a hotel, not a nest!!!
     
  31. Tom-D

    Tom-D Taxi to Parking PoA Supporter

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    I'm not... experience talking.
     
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  32. Tom-D

    Tom-D Taxi to Parking PoA Supporter

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    Ever done anything ?
     
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  33. Tom-D

    Tom-D Taxi to Parking PoA Supporter

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    Never think about what ircphoenix says he must drag others down to his level to make himself feel good.
     
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  34. IK04

    IK04 Cleared for Takeoff

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  35. ircphoenix

    ircphoenix En-Route

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    So very true.
     
  36. Madison890

    Madison890 Pre-Flight

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    Guys and ladies I really do appreciate all the good advice and help. I have printed these pages and will be heading to AR wednesday to be with the mechanic while he does his work. I found out today that he won’t be able to make it until Wednesday. Thank you for all the offers of help. I will be replying to everyone’s email before Thursday with more information. I will also grab some more pictures and be sure to post them. I started today on the process of getting my student certificate. I can’t get an appointment with a doc until next week in Charlotte. Ive been speaking with a great fan rep and she has got me squared away on the tail #. I was expecting to pay close to 3-4K to get it in annual and then home. I after speaking to mechanic think that might be a realistic number. I’ll be sure next time she’s up to run her for a longer period of time. I’ll also be asking about the Sump seal and any modifications to make her more safe. Thanks again guy. I’ll be sure to post more.
     
  37. Madison890

    Madison890 Pre-Flight

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    I’m taking it as support and encouragement. Thanks for letting me know about illegal activity. Come to think of it I might have dreamt that post purchase flight. Thanks again.
     
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  38. Madison890

    Madison890 Pre-Flight

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  39. Madison890

    Madison890 Pre-Flight

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    Yeah man my fault. I don’t really know when it started either, but the mechanic has made 3 trips already and as of toda said he will have it done by Friday. He is bringing parts and supplies wednesday and will start I guess really getting into it then. He has been there three times to inspect and maybe gather a parts list? There is no electrical or water and is in that part of the country that tends to rain a bit more than others. I think the weather has had more of an affect on his time table than anything. Sorry for the confusion I don’t know exactly how it usually goes so I don’t know how this differs from a normal annual. The mechanic is also stationed about two hours away and I think that affects how this is playing out as well. Thanks for the advice and sorry for the confusion.
     
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  40. Madison890

    Madison890 Pre-Flight

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    I don’t know what some of these acronyms are but I’ll learn quickly. It’s funny you mention that the mechanic has mentioned probably eight things that he says are on the nice to get to later list. He has a completely separate list in order to get it in annual. I thought it was funny when he said nice to get to later, I asked what it would take to get to it all now and he said a mechanic with more time on his hands. Haha most of the ‘nice to’ list involves cosmetics. He recommended I find a knowledgeable mechanic in my area.