Need some advice

Tristar

Tristar

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Tristar
Hey guys,

I'm in an interesting situation. I love my job as a flight instructor but its not exactly the highest paying job so I put forth a lot of effort into finding a part time job and recieved one at the local news paper. The news paper is also offering me a 32 hour night job which is from 9pm-whenever we stop. Currently I work from 11:30 - whenever we stop which is usually around 3am. Because of this, I need some time to sleep so I blocked off until 10am as unavailable. It's a little stressfull since I do have a student that wants to fly at 7:30am and another potential at 9:00am. My current boss is a little concerned about this because he wants me on full time too. He asked me what I need to stay on full time...which is a whopping 2.5 hour difference in the day but we have students that want to fly mornings. I totaled up a rough idea for him of things I have to pay for which exceeded the checks I was getting. I told him honestly that I dont think as a small company that he can match what I'm getting at the newspaper even though its only 8 bucks an hour there. He told me that he thinks I'll be getting about 100 hours a month this summer. I might believe that but summer will pass and if weather is bad, airplanes are down, or what ever, I have no way to pay for my bills which is not good. It still frustrates him and I feel bad that I have to sleep and pay bills and tell my boss that has been so good to me that I'm not sure he can afford to match what I'm doing. He basically ended it with "okay, I just want you out here full time, so I'll think about it and hopefully figure out something." Sigh...I have plenty of time, I just need students to be more flexable.

He would also like me to get my CFII but I told him very honestly that there was no way of me doing that since the cost of the airplane is basically a third sometimes half of my paychecks in the winter time. Thankfully he understood that.

To top it off....I kinda like having some extra income, I just wish the hours were a little more reliable instead of "whenever we finish." But at least, unlike instructing, I'm guaranteed a paycheck.
 
Some wise (and well-off) sage said, "Do what you love and you'll get 5 extra days in a week."

Don't know if that applies, but given the current flatline of activity in GA, maintaining hearth and home are probably higher priorities than FBO pacing.

I would absolutely love to instruct FT -- but it's simply not currently feasible -- the students too few, the pay too sparse, and the precipice too close.

So I do it when I can and enjoy it more.

:dunno:
 
Tell him you want 8 hours a day pay whether you are flying or not. Do other stuff around the FBO if you have to.
 
If they want you enough, they'll find a way to make it work. If there are other tasks they need done at the flight school, and you can do them, and you tell them you're willing to do them, that may make them want you more. Most importantly, look at this as a sales job -- you're selling yourself to the company. Of course, you must make sure you don't undersell yourself by either failing to point out assets you bring to the table, or accepting too low a price for the product, but you have to go in there with the goal of closing the sale, and do what it takes to make that happen.

Good luck!
 
How about telling him you need to keep the night job for now, but will look for something else? In the mean time, you can't get to the FBO until after X:XXam.

I like Ed's idea the best, though.
 
If the FBO/school management isn't willing to pay you enough to take care of your obligations, then he needs to work the student schedule around your available instructing hours. If that's 10 AM, that's 10 AM.

I wouldn't feel the least bit guilty about it either. You've posted before to help generate interest in his operation, which is going above and beyond just showing up for work. It's his problem to solve, not yours.
 
jhausch said:
I like Ed's idea the best, though.
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It doesn't hurt to ask but it may be like trying to get blood out of a turnip.

Tristan, I know that flying and getting hours are a hard thing to balance against pay but you need to take care of your bills first IMHO. I stuck with flying a single for a lot of years when people were telling me to go get a multi job so I could get on with a regional, but any multi job and even the regionals were paying less than half what I was making flying a single so I stuck with that. I'm probably "behind" where I would have been otherwise in my career but, on the other hand, with all the turmoil in the industry I could have also been out of a job.
 
It's not your responsibility to find a job that allows you to pay your bills while meeting their schedule. It IS your responsibility to find a job that allows you to pay your bills. Ed's suggestion is the best. If they want you full time, they need to be paying you for it.

I would try to negotiate something similar for CFII. It is worth getting. However if he really wants you to get it, he should be willing to invest in you. If my company wants me to get training or a degree, I expect them to pay for it. There is no reason why you should put forth any less of an expectation on your job. Understand that such an investment on his part will probably mean he expects you to stay for a given amount of time (include that in the negotiation).

Remember that you have to put yourself first in this case. You're no good to any of your students if you can't pay the bills you need to.
 
What the boys all said. They need you full time they can pay. Otherwise it's your call. Should be plenty of stuff to do around the FBO, and you might even be able to give the mechanics a hand in the shop (if there is one) and gain valuable experience in the process.
 
Performance flight training is not affiliated with the FBO. We rent an office but thats it. We have 5 people of which 3 are instructors. There is not much else to do than teach.

I think the 8 hours a day pay is a great idea but even if I backed my pay to $10 an hour, I have doubts that would work.
 
Tristar said:
Performance flight training is not affiliated with the FBO. We rent an office but thats it. We have 5 people of which 3 are instructors. There is not much else to do than teach.

I think the 8 hours a day pay is a great idea but even if I backed my pay to $10 an hour, I have doubts that would work.
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I pay my CFII $35/hour. And that's direct to him, not through an FBO. Don't underestimate what your time is worth.
 
Out of curiousity, what does he charge students for an hour of your time?
 
All good advice. I look at it this way: you've got to make enough to pay your bills and put something aside. Teachers (either school teachers or CFI) will never make a lot of money. Many have other jobs, too. And getting experience at something else would be valuable if anything ever happened to cause you to stop flying (anything from medical to another 9/11).

I've been fortunate enough to get to work at a number of things that I really enjoyed, and some that just payed the bills. There's a place for both.

I'm not in your situation, but if I were, I'd think hard about what kind of schedule I could arrange to allow me to do both. 3 AM is tough.... especially if you have to get up in the AM.
 
I think one thing that I don't understand is that I don't have a day off. If I need one, I will schedule one. They've been very kind about that too. It would just be nice if I could have until 10am to make up for the fact that I am available/work 7 days a week. Its not always full time though. Some days I may only fly once or twice which is why I don't mind most of the time.
 
Whats funny is the time that I have the other job is the best hours I could find. I can't work mornings because I would never be available until 1 or so and nor evenings because most companies want you to start at 4pm....believe me, I turned in a ton of applications and got the same response. So 11 or even 9-finish is the best...even though mornings are rough. It's hard too because I know as a CFI, I want to set a good example and I have a hard time doing that if I get home at 3 or 4 in the morning just to get up in a few hours. I can sometimes pull mornings off if I sleep before I go to work...but thats if I'm not teaching late.
 
Tristan, these are tough choices that one has to make. One always has to pay the bills and keep a roof over their head as well as food on the table. We all have things we'd love to do, but sometimes we are not able to chase after that. If aviation is truly your desire then you'll need to make sacrifices somewhere along the way to make it work out. Good luck to you no matter what.
 
You might something along the lines of a draw against commissions. As a draw against flight time. In the slow periods you get your needed minimum to pay the bills. Assuming you owe him when the summer rush starts when time exceeds the minimum he gets paid back. Once he's paid back you receive the excess until the next slow cycle.

I also know hte my CFII who was fresh out of school and went the winter with three of us as students did a lot of word processing to create school specific documents on the different planes available, PP / IR / CP manuevers, etc.
 
Tristan - here's some advice from a man that has made more than his fair share of mistakes in his work life:

The most important thing in life is to be able to live, comfortably if possible. You love flying, and you love teaching, I see that and I know you well enough to know that is true (granted, I haven't talked to you in person in years). What you need to do is continue doing the flight instructor thing at you leisure, when you can, and work a stable job that pays the bills.

Eventually, you'll get the experience as a flight instructor that will allow you to pursue what your eventual goal is. You can't rush it though, it will never work out that way and you will wind up frustrated if you try.

The flight school is a business, and you are an employee. They, like most employers, are trying to get the most out of you for the least amount of money. Your personal job is to get the most money out of work as possible. Somewhere in between is where you will meet, but if the flight school is not willing to budge, then you're going to have to act.

And act you have. You've found a job that will pay the bills. That is step 1, because now you are no longer a slave to the flight school. Perhaps the next step is to develop your career at the newspaper so that you have discretionary income to use to be in even more power so that you can truly dictate to the flight school what your needs are.

Perhaps looking to adhoc CFI for owners in the area would be a good place to continue your CFIing without the pressure of the flight school (and make more money doing it too).

As to the part about being asked to get your CFII, I'll say this: Never once in the last 15 years working professionally, have I ever paid for training that a job requested of me, because if its important to them, they'll pay for it. I know aviation is different, but that is only because we let it be different. I don't find it unreasonable to ask them to pay for most if not all of the training.
 
First of all, eating every day and sleeping indoors is a higher priority for me that flying (just barely).

I agree with all the advice you've gotten so far. If you can't take students before 1000 that's OK. At my age, I would need more time between jobs. You've obviously already proven yourself to these people, stand up for yourself!

As far as the CFII, I have a deal for you, oh boy what a deal:

Fly with Jesse under the hood from the right seat until you can pass the IFR checkride. You already have the knowledge, you only need to practice the skills.

I will and, not to put words in his mouth, but I think Ron will also work on a correspondence course for the teaching parts.

I'll be passing through Nebraska this summer at least once. If you're ready, I'd be happy to spend some time in Lincoln to get the 3 hrs min needed for a sign-off.

"A person who loves what they do for a living never has to work a day in their lives"

Best of luck to you!
Joe
 
CFI's and leaseback-owners are the loss leaders in GA. I don't see that changing anytime soon, given the current demographics and economy coupled with the laws of supply and demand.

The sad truth is that almost everyone who has invested significant time and/or money in either of these endeavors is at some point forced to accept the reality that neither pays worth squat compared to other alternatives for making a living or achieving ROI.

I've been involved with airplanes for more than a half-century and have yet to meet a single person who has accumulated a significant net worth from their time in the front seat of an airplane.
 
Tristar said:
$54 or $49/hour for students. I get $20
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Unfortunately lots of places pay $20 or less to their instructors and they charge the client through the nose!

I was in your exact position.

I worked for a flight school at my home airport who did the same thing. They wanted me to be there all day and only pay me for flight time. I figured that if I cut the middle man I could get what I'm worth.

I quit working for the school (for other reasons) and I went freelance. I was very vocal and open about it. I teamed up with another aircraft rental operation on the field and I charged my students $45 per hour of instruction and that went to me and only me.

It took a few months but I built up a good student base and I always made sure to keep my rates just a bit below the competition and I made sure that I was freindlier than they are (flexible pay options, not nickle and diming ground time etc)

I had days of no flying, then I had days of 4 hours of flying with another 2 ground lessons. At my peak I was bringing in a very good salary (until the blizzards hit this winter).

There are ways to make it work out. Freelance, with the right local advertising and patience is the best way to instruct. You make your own hours and you get paid what you are worth.

So I think that keeping your current job at the newspaper and then freelancing is gonna be your best bet.

Send me a PM if you need any help I would be more than happy to lend a hand.
 
Of course, the FBO owner might not take a shine to you stealing customers by undercutting him. You may want to try that gig at another field.

If you freelance you're going to have to do something about insurance though. It's a hassle to have to ask every student to add you to their policy, and if it's a rental plane you'll need to have your own coverage anyway. Plus you probably have to make your own SS contributions. It's not alllllll fun being your own boss.
 
flyersfan31 said:
Of course, the FBO owner might not take a shine to you stealing customers by undercutting him. You may want to try that gig at another field.
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I never liked that FBO anyway (no one on the field does, we are very happy that they are at the end of their contract this year!)

I never stole a student. Any student who began training with me there stayed there. I never told them what I was doing. All of my students were brand new.

I dont think that I should worry about how they feel about me undercutting them by $5. Thats competition. If they paid well and if they provided enough students to keep me busy in the first place I wouldnt have to compete with them.

I had the advantage that the only reason people went to that school was a lack of options known to the public. There are other entities on the field, but no one really advertised like I did. I just made myself known :D
 
Tristan, you gotta pay the bills. You did good.
About all you can do is ask for $25.

If you were working at an integrated FBO, you'd be asking for pay to man the desk, pump fuel, flight plan and sell charters....etc. But given what you've got, you did good.

It's a sad fact that there are only twenty-six hours in a day.

PS Apply to the 99s for the $$ to add "-I" to your CFI. They have a scholarship for that!
 
It's a little hard to train primary students without having a plane for them to rent.
 
Hey everyone,

My name is James and I'm the lead instructor/manager at the school Tristar works for. This is my first post here, but I'm very active on the Jetcareers.com forums, so if you read those, you might "know" me in a way. I browse all the internet pilot forums from time to time and ran across this thread. I wanted to post our perspective as a business to explain why some things are the way they are. Aviation is a very small world and I wouldn't want any inaccurate rumors floating around about our school.

First, I have to say that Tristar is a great instructor. I've flown with her, listened in on some of her ground training sessions, and talked to clients who have all been impressed by her. We definitely want to keep her around.

Now, to clarify a few things I saw earlier in this thread...

We don't require any of our instructors to be available during particular hours. ESPECIALLY without paying them. Both the school's owner and I feel the same as everyone here...if you're not getting paid, you shouldn't be required to be there. Same goes for days off. If an instructor is available 24/7, great. If they want time off, they can block it off in our scheduling system and leave. I've been teaching for 5 1/2 years now and I fully understand the importance of time off. We let our instructors set whatever schedule they want. They can come and go as they please.

However, there is also the business element of customer service. Our goal with the flight school is to provide the best possible flight training experience for a customer. The best aircraft, best instructors, best schedule, most organized, most professional, etc. That means if a customer wants to fly at 7:00 a.m., we make it happen. If an instructor needs time off that conflicts with the customer's interest, that's fine...but we'd rather the customer fly with a different instructor who is available for them, rather than bend to suit our needs. Simply put, we bend to fit the customer, not the other way around.

That's not to say Tristar's done anything wrong. I completely understand the "feast or famine" nature of instructing and the desire for a steady income. But it's all a balancing act. If an instructor chooses to not be available during a certain time (in this case, the mornings) they might lose revenue as a result (from customers who want to fly in the mornings). We can't assign customers to an instructor who isn't available. It's just the reality of the situation. I don't know what else to say.

When it comes to having the credentials of being a CFII, I don't see anything wrong with the instructor paying for the rating themselves. We have never insisted that an instructor earn extra credentials to keep working for us. But we have pointed out that extra credentials (CFII, high performance, tailwheel, glass cockpit, etc.) will open them up to new customers that might otherwise need to fly with another instructor. If a instructor isn't qualified to teach instruments, we can't assign them an instrument student...simple as that.

When it comes to paying for training, drawing against a salary, etc., the owner of the school hasn't ruled these options out for our instructors, but is very hesitant to set up such arrangements. The reason comes from him being burned, quite badly, from previous arrangements with previous instructors in the past. He lost at least $3,000 to one instructor who he provided a salary too, only to have the instructor routinely miss work, then quit unexpectedly. It's hard to have experiences like that and not become jaded about hiring instructors.

Finally, I've addressed the "$49/hour received vs $20/hour" paid on the Jetcareers forum before, but I'll address it here again.

First, is $49 or $54/hour really, "paying out the nose" for instruction? How much did your car mechanic charge last time you went to the shop? How about to get some trees trimmed in your front yard? The electrician who will be installing a new electrical outlet in my basement next week charges $70/hour. I think $54/hour for good quality instruction is very fair. We aren't the cheapest place in town, nor do we try to be. If you compete on price alone, you'll always lose. There's always somebody out there who will be willing to undercut you. But if you compete based on quality, while providing it at a fair price, you can do really well over the long term.

Next, without any split in the margin, how would any overhead get paid for? What's it worth to an instructor to simply show up, be assigned a customer, and go teach? Office space, phone lines, computers, somebody to answer the phones, newspaper ads, a web site, insurance...the list could go on....are those all free? Obviously not...but the money to pay for them has to come from somewhere. That $29/hour split is what covers those things. Incidentally, do you think the car mechanic at the dealership gets paid 100% of the shop rate? If not, why not?


So as I said above, Tristar is great, and from the little bit I've read in these forums, it looks like she's represented our school well. Whatever she decides to do when it comes to work, both in and out of aviation, I hope she does well. I just didn't want anyone to assume negative things about our operation that aren't true. If you have any questions, let me know.
 
James, I don't think anyone was saying negative things about the operation there. That doesn't mean that the realities you have to face as a business owner mesh with the realities Tristan has to face as someone with bills to pay. That is what she was asking advice on, and it seems people have given her good, sound advice.

As both a business owner and an employee (two different places), I understand the "battle." Ultimately, business owners have their bills to pay and their objectives, and employees have their bills to pay and their objectives. The two work against eachother, and create some sort of balance.
 
Ted DuPuis said:
James, I don't think anyone was saying negative things about the operation there. That doesn't mean that the realities you have to face as a business owner mesh with the realities Tristan has to face as someone with bills to pay. That is what she was asking advice on, and it seems people have given her good, sound advice.

As both a business owner and an employee (two different places), I understand the "battle." Ultimately, business owners have their bills to pay and their objectives, and employees have their bills to pay and their objectives. The two work against eachother, and create some sort of balance.
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Very true. It's all a balancing act. But at the same time, we're a small operation and honestly do care about our instructors. We'd like to create as many "win-win" situations as possible.

That's why I raise my eyebrows when I see terms like paying "through the nose" or "requiring" an instructor to be present without getting paid, and I felt the need to respond.

I've dealt with some colleges/flight academies/large flight schools who have practices that I consider knowingly taking advantage of their instructors. In fact, I was one of them...when I started teaching it was in a college flight program for $12/hour, hobbs time only, no ground pay, and I was a CFII/MEI. Before coming to work at my current employer (two years ago), I was on the verge of walking away from teaching because I was convinced that it was a completely unprofitable endeavor.

I'm proud of the fact that our operation isn't like that. We try to give our instructors the best work environment possible without putting ourselves out of business in the process. Obviously we have limits, but I'm quick to defend our business as not being like the "other guys" that I've seen over time.
 
jrhilliard said:
I'm proud of the fact that our operation isn't like that. We try to give our instructors the best work environment possible without putting ourselves out of business in the process. Obviously we have limits, but I'm quick to defend our business as not being like the "other guys" that I've seen over time.
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Good for you for being able to see there's more than one dimension to the situation. In this day and age, it's probably not realistic for a CFI to expect to get full time wages from instructing. It's too bad, since good instruction really has a great value, not just for teaching the required stuff, but to help retain interest in GA.
 
bbchien said:
Apply to the 99s for the $$ to add "-I" to your CFI. They have a scholarship for that!
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They do, however unless Tristan is already a member there is a 2 year waiting period to be eligible for a scholarship. For example, the deadline for applying this year is December 2010 so someone would have had to be a member since December 2008.
 
flyersfan31 said:
Of course, the FBO owner might not take a shine to you stealing customers by undercutting him. You may want to try that gig at another field.

If you freelance you're going to have to do something about insurance though. It's a hassle to have to ask every student to add you to their policy, and if it's a rental plane you'll need to have your own coverage anyway. Plus you probably have to make your own SS contributions. It's not alllllll fun being your own boss.
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While it's probably socially irresponsible to instruct "naked" insurance wise, IME few young CFIs have enough attachable assets to make insurance attractive.
 
Mr. Hilliard:

Thanks for sharing with us; it's always valuable to have a view from another point on the aviation compass. Please, feel free to drop in and offer your comments on lots of stuff.

Tristan's like everyone's little sister here (well, everyone but Jesse... :D ), so I'm glad you had nothing bad to say about her. She has certainly never had a harsh word about your operation!

I have to believe, by the way, that Tristan must surely be the teensiest flight instructor ever...
 
SCCutler said:
I have to believe, by the way, that Tristan must surely be the teensiest flight instructor ever...
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What better charter pilot than a light one? Make as much of the aircraft's payload as possible go toward paying customers/goods.

Perhaps there's an opportunity for some charter work at the FBO to help plug in the gaps in the instructing schedule? Assuming there aren't exclusivity agreements, etc...
 
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