Need some advice

Same here. I'd never make enough dimes in some other industry to fly the airplanes I fly anyway. I'm also not enchanted with the idea of jumping job to job or contract to contract in order to make more money. I'm just lazy at heart, businesswise. I know that independent contractors flying the same airplane I fly get on the average $800-$850/day plus expenses, but from that they need to pay for their training and other things since they are not employees.

It's interesting and good to listen to other people's stories, but in the end you are not them and people need to decide for themselves what they want.

I have a handful of friends that do a lot of contract work that always try to talk me into doing it, too. There's tons of it in UAE, Saudi, and China for offshore oil and gas exploration. The money is insane, BUT, the lifestyle leaves a lot to be desired. The schedules are not as good as mine, usually 6 weeks on 2 weeks off, and when the contract is up you're beating bushes to find another job. If a person approached it as a short-term endeavor to bank some cash or pay off some bills, it could be good; however, what I see with these guys is the money gets addictive, even though they have no time to spend it and no families to enjoy it with.

When I changed jobs last fall the number one priority for me was a schedule that would allow me to have some sort of life outside work. That is worth a lot more than a high salary to me. I'm also getting lazy and so tired of the job-hunting and job-jumping to get that next bit of experience or one more tidbit for the resume. I'm ready to stay put and with a job that requires me to work half the year it's like I'm already semi-retired. Sure, there are a lot of things I would like to do in my career yet, a lot of aircraft I haven't flown and places I haven't been. But at some point a person's priorities shift.
 
So what would be a better way of doing it, without compromising safety like I talked about in my previous post?

A single union with a single hiring pool. That pool get broken into half a dozen levels of experience with minimum pay scales for that level and each level has its own seniority scale. Say you have 10 years in at Airline A and that puts you midway up level 2. Airline A goes under. Airline B picks you up at the base of level 2 pay but still with your level 2 seniority number within the union.
 
Same here. I'd never make enough dimes in some other industry to fly the airplanes I fly anyway. I'm also not enchanted with the idea of jumping job to job or contract to contract in order to make more money. I'm just lazy at heart, businesswise. I know that independent contractors flying the same airplane I fly get on the average $800-$850/day plus expenses, but from that they need to pay for their training and other things since they are not employees.

It's interesting and good to listen to other people's stories, but in the end you are not them and people need to decide for themselves what they want.

Luckily I was never enthralled with the corporate jet flying, just not my cup of tea, I prefer seeing the animals on the ground and not hanging around in FBO lobbies. However, the boss was complaining about the airlines again the other day and I pointed out the SJ-30 to him and he liked it....
 
I have a handful of friends that do a lot of contract work that always try to talk me into doing it, too. There's tons of it in UAE, Saudi, and China for offshore oil and gas exploration. The money is insane, BUT, the lifestyle leaves a lot to be desired. The schedules are not as good as mine, usually 6 weeks on 2 weeks off, and when the contract is up you're beating bushes to find another job. If a person approached it as a short-term endeavor to bank some cash or pay off some bills, it could be good; however, what I see with these guys is the money gets addictive, even though they have no time to spend it and no families to enjoy it with.

When I changed jobs last fall the number one priority for me was a schedule that would allow me to have some sort of life outside work. That is worth a lot more than a high salary to me. I'm also getting lazy and so tired of the job-hunting and job-jumping to get that next bit of experience or one more tidbit for the resume. I'm ready to stay put and with a job that requires me to work half the year it's like I'm already semi-retired. Sure, there are a lot of things I would like to do in my career yet, a lot of aircraft I haven't flown and places I haven't been. But at some point a person's priorities shift.

Exactly the point the oldtimers have been trying to make from the beginning.
 
Luckily I was never enthralled with the corporate jet flying, just not my cup of tea, I prefer seeing the animals on the ground and not hanging around in FBO lobbies.
I did the whole animals on the ground thing for years before corporate jets. One of the things I like about corporate/charter is the variety of places I have gotten to see, many of which I had never heard of before. I enjoy new people and new places. Sometimes the airplane is only secondary.
 
Look at it this way: let's say airlines went to a "merit-based" system of promotion rather than seniority. How would a pilot's skills be evaluated? By on-time departures? By how many times they make it to the destination rather than diverting? By peer review? By how many times they don't crash?

Well, several of the metrics you propose don't actually evaluate piloting skill, and do potentially compromise safety, I agree. So don't choose those. :smile: But this doesn't mean you can't pick metrics which do evaluate the quality of a pilot and do not compromise safety.

Some examples: performance on simulator-based evaluations. The better you deal with simulated emergencies, the higher you score. Peer reviews: why not? Why not let pilots evaluate other pilots? If you fear that the system may be corrupted, then designate certain pilots as examiners of other pilots. (Sort of like how pilots get certified in the first place...) Customer surveys: should we reward pilots who manage to keep their passengers happy? How about ones who make their passengers feel safe, or well informed?

Base the upgrades on reviews from coworkers or supervisors and you open up the system to politics and butt kissing--again, at the least, it's not fair, and at the most, it has the potential to be unsafe. Suppose a captain was about to do something unsafe and the copilot didn't want to speak up, for fear of ticking the captain off and not getting a good review...bad things could happen.

I don't buy this -- the pilots I know are not unprofessional enough to let politics get in the way of safety. But I am not a pro like you -- have you seen counterexamples in your experience?

A key role of a supervisors is to evaluate their reports, and reward the ones who perform well objectively, not based on political considerations. This is true in virtually every industry. What is special about aviation which means that supervisors can't do this? Or is your position based on the existence of bad supervisors (who I agree, will always exist)? Peer review is used successfully in many fields (including my own) -- does aviation have a special property which would make this system break down?

Now, consider the impact of basing upgrades on pure flying skill. How do you measure perfection? Pilots can go their entire career without crashing once. They can all handle engine failures equally well. They can all keep the needles crossed up within a one dot deflection during an ILS approach. They can all hold airspeeds within 5 knots. How do you differentiate?

I have friends who regularly take Citation training at Flight Safety. Part of the training is "can you meet the required bar". Everyone passes that to keep their ratings. But the instructors and examiners at this place also like to see how complicated and challenging a scenario they can dream up to see how the pilot will react. They want to find the pilot's breaking point, to see how skilled they really are (and to find out what things the pilot needs to improve). I've heard that for the really skilled pilots they take great joy in devising some scenario (any scenario) which the pilot can't handle or figure out.

Would you agree the pilots which can handle the more complicated emergencies without a flaw deserve to be rewarded? Are they not better pilots?

Chris
 
Would you agree the pilots which can handle the more complicated emergencies without a flaw deserve to be rewarded? Are they not better pilots?

Chris

Not necessarily, handling an emergency is only one aspect of being a good pilot. Being able to preclude one is even more important. Now they are not mutually exclusive, but one does not preclude the other either, so in and of itself it's not an end all be all metric.
 
I did the whole animals on the ground thing for years before corporate jets. One of the things I like about corporate/charter is the variety of places I have gotten to see, many of which I had never heard of before. I enjoy new people and new places. Sometimes the airplane is only secondary.

Yep, kinda the same for me. I get to travel places and meet people, go diving and surfing... all while I'm doing my job and being paid for it.:D Oh yeah, I get more toys to play with too:p
 
Apologizing in advance for my ignorance, please explain the "animals on the ground" reference.
 
Some examples: performance on simulator-based evaluations. The better you deal with simulated emergencies, the higher you score.

This would be a lot tougher to score than one might think. It's not a cookie-cutter process. Every emergency is different and there oftentimes is no single "right" way to handle it, but rather multiple "acceptable" ways to handle it. The ultimate test is if the airplane ends up on the ground safely. That's why they need to be graded on a pass/fail basis, rather than a specific score.

Peer reviews: why not? Why not let pilots evaluate other pilots? If you fear that the system may be corrupted, then designate certain pilots as examiners of other pilots. (Sort of like how pilots get certified in the first place...)

Pilots get certified to begin with by using a pass/fail system and Practical Test Standards.

But anyway, there's also the practical side to this, where an airline with 3000 pilots simply couldn't be constantly evaluating everyone with any level of efficiency. The evaluators could only fly with a given pilot a few times per year. And because everything is so rigid and standardized in the airline world, I'd imagine every pilot would start to look the same after a while.

Then, from a fairness perspective, I wouldn't want my chances of upgrading to all hinge on these few evaluation flights. What if I have an "off" day? I might be a perfectly safe, good, competent pilot, but not fly "optimally" on the day of evaluation and get passed over for upgrade, something that could screw up life for literally a few years.

Customer surveys: should we reward pilots who manage to keep their passengers happy? How about ones who make their passengers feel safe, or well informed?

I don't want to sound harsh, but most airline passengers wouldn't know a good pilot if one walked up and slapped them in the face. They don't have a clue what is safe and what isn't. They judge an airline based on if they fly on time, have a smooth ride, get to their destination, and have a smooth landing.

They get upset if their flight gets cancelled, regardless of the reason. Half the time they think the flight crew is lying about the reason for a problem no matter how truthful the crew has been.

I don't have any contempt for passengers, but they're a fickle bunch and I'd never want my chances of upgrading to depend on them.

I don't buy this -- the pilots I know are not unprofessional enough to let politics get in the way of safety. But I am not a pro like you -- have you seen counterexamples in your experience?

Well, yes and no. The whole concept of CRM (Cockpit Resource Management, or Crew Resource Management) came about as a result of crews not working well together on an interpersonal level and compromising safety as a result (the captain is God, the copilot should sit down and shut up, etc.).

Thankfully, as a result of CRM training, most of those problems have gone away. But people are still people and there are times when two pilots simply don't like each other. Talk to any airline pilot and they can all tell you about a few characters at their airline that they'd prefer not to fly with for one reason or another. It could be a captain who is overly critical of the FO's techniques, the copilot who won't shut up with boring stories, the fact that a pilot used to be employed by a carrier that undercut the current carrier's business, or whatever.

I doubt this kind of arrangement would end in a fiery disaster, but I don't think it would be fair, and it might compromise safety to a smaller degree by just adding unnecessary tension to a cockpit.

Peer review is used successfully in many fields (including my own) -- does aviation have a special property which would make this system break down?

Sort of. I don't know of a good way to explain this. Aviation is a very, very, objective, pragmatic industry. Everything is researched, measured, and quantifiable. It's just the culture of professional flying. Humans are notoriously unpredictable. I think if upgrade ultimately relied on human interaction, it would turn in to a circus. Seniority is very clear, defined, and understandable for everyone.

Would you agree the pilots which can handle the more complicated emergencies without a flaw deserve to be rewarded? Are they not better pilots?

Ehhh...yes and no. A lot of those complicated emergencies are also unrealistic. They have to show the pilot can handle an engine failure, loss of cabin pressure, loss of hydraulic power, shoot an ILS approach to minimums, etc...so they pile it all on at once in order to check the boxes quickly.

And as I said above, emergencies in real life really are more of a pass/fail situation anyway. There are numerous ways to skin a cat.



You have good ideas, but I'm still convinced the seniority system is the only way to do it. There's a reason seniority is used so widely, even at non-union carriers.
 
A single union with a single hiring pool. That pool get broken into half a dozen levels of experience with minimum pay scales for that level and each level has its own seniority scale. Say you have 10 years in at Airline A and that puts you midway up level 2. Airline A goes under. Airline B picks you up at the base of level 2 pay but still with your level 2 seniority number within the union.

I see what you're saying, but still think it would be tough to implement. The different equipment, routes, schedules, etc. at all the different carriers could wreak havoc on setting pay scales and cutoff lines for the different levels.

Also, how would one deal with all the non-union carriers? As far as I know, places like SkyWest and JetBlue employ literally thousands of pilots and aren't unionized.

Would they just be out of luck? A pilot could work for 10 years for JetBlue, but be worthless if they get hired at United? If that were the case, the situation would be the same as what we have now, except with a bigger union.

What a mess...I feel sorry for everyone playing the 121 game.
 
Sim instructors have "squares to fill" on the training records. They (we) all have some advanced scenarios for the experienced crews. The far-out exercises are not so much to test their mettle, but more to show them some things they may not ever see in the airplane and keep them from being bored stiff by repeating the same sim drill every six months for the rest of their lives.

Both pilots and instructors know that the abnormals we encounter during real life are in most cases different from those in the abnormal and emer check lists in the airplane, and that our goal should be to enhance the crew's systems knowledge during the training process. Sometimes we can use "trick scenarios" to demonstrate the capabilities or shortcoming of the airplane design, in other cases we can demonstrate the redundancy of the systems in ways the pilots might not otherwise think about. And occasionally we screw around a little bit just for fun.

Well, several of the metrics you propose don't actually evaluate piloting skill, and do potentially compromise safety, I agree. So don't choose those. :smile: But this doesn't mean you can't pick metrics which do evaluate the quality of a pilot and do not compromise safety.

Some examples: performance on simulator-based evaluations. The better you deal with simulated emergencies, the higher you score. Peer reviews: why not? Why not let pilots evaluate other pilots? If you fear that the system may be corrupted, then designate certain pilots as examiners of other pilots. (Sort of like how pilots get certified in the first place...) Customer surveys: should we reward pilots who manage to keep their passengers happy? How about ones who make their passengers feel safe, or well informed?



I don't buy this -- the pilots I know are not unprofessional enough to let politics get in the way of safety. But I am not a pro like you -- have you seen counterexamples in your experience?

A key role of a supervisors is to evaluate their reports, and reward the ones who perform well objectively, not based on political considerations. This is true in virtually every industry. What is special about aviation which means that supervisors can't do this? Or is your position based on the existence of bad supervisors (who I agree, will always exist)? Peer review is used successfully in many fields (including my own) -- does aviation have a special property which would make this system break down?



I have friends who regularly take Citation training at Flight Safety. Part of the training is "can you meet the required bar". Everyone passes that to keep their ratings. But the instructors and examiners at this place also like to see how complicated and challenging a scenario they can dream up to see how the pilot will react. They want to find the pilot's breaking point, to see how skilled they really are (and to find out what things the pilot needs to improve). I've heard that for the really skilled pilots they take great joy in devising some scenario (any scenario) which the pilot can't handle or figure out.

Would you agree the pilots which can handle the more complicated emergencies without a flaw deserve to be rewarded? Are they not better pilots?

Chris
 
I see what you're saying, but still think it would be tough to implement. The different equipment, routes, schedules, etc. at all the different carriers could wreak havoc on setting pay scales and cutoff lines for the different levels.

Also, how would one deal with all the non-union carriers? As far as I know, places like SkyWest and JetBlue employ literally thousands of pilots and aren't unionized.

Would they just be out of luck? A pilot could work for 10 years for JetBlue, but be worthless if they get hired at United? If that were the case, the situation would be the same as what we have now, except with a bigger union.

What a mess...I feel sorry for everyone playing the 121 game.

Yeah, it wouldn't be simple, and if you fly for a non union airline, well, none of it applies to you and if you want to go to a union airline from there, the situation will be exactly the same as it is now, you start at the bottom of the seniority list.

As for feeling sorry for 121 pilots, I don't, not in the slightest. They are living the life they chose and continue to choose. Nobody is forcing them to be there and there are 100 guys just waiting to take each one's place should they leave.
 
Where does the average pilot end up getting a 737 type rating and at whose expense did they get it?


Women in Aviation offer 737 Type Rating Scholarships:

http://www.wai.org/education/scholarship_winners_2010.cfm

My friend was awarded a 737 Type Rating Scholarship through Delta. She now flies the 737-800 for Delta.

Tristan...if you are looking for money for a rating try Women in Aviation www.wai.org or try the Ninety Nines www.ninety-nines.org They might be able to help you out.

Best wishes to you.
 
That $29/hour split is what covers those things. Incidentally, do you think the car mechanic at the dealership gets paid 100% of the shop rate? If not, why not?

But.. you aren't a car dealership and shes not a mechanic.

Without sounding accusatory nor insinuating anything negative... why make the money on the backs of the instructors?

Instead of charging $29 extra dollars for the instructors time they never see, spread that out over the entire rental fleet wet rates so that non instructional flights are contributing to the overhead... or are you already doing that and simply double billing for overhead with rental and instructional fees?

I knew of several flight schools that allowed freelance instructors, as well as flying clubs (with "freelance" instructors within the club ranks) and it worked out fine and was competitive..
 
But.. you aren't a car dealership and shes not a mechanic.

Without sounding accusatory nor insinuating anything negative... why make the money on the backs of the instructors?

Instead of charging $29 extra dollars for the instructors time they never see, spread that out over the entire rental fleet wet rates so that non instructional flights are contributing to the overhead... or are you already doing that and simply double billing for overhead with rental and instructional fees?

I knew of several flight schools that allowed freelance instructors, as well as flying clubs (with "freelance" instructors within the club ranks) and it worked out fine and was competitive..

Sounds like socialism to me.... I'm a multi thousand hour renter pilot, I have a certificate, I don't need classroom facilities and videos and teaching aids, I just need a damned airplane. Why should I finance someone else's education? You can't just piggyback back it onto other rental rates because then the renter will go next door where they are $20hr cheaper Face it, most flight schools rent mostly to students flying, some exclusively, so the difference to the student will be minimal, and since flying solo will be more expensive, they'll probably end up paying more anyway. Pay for what you get. If you don't like paying $50hr for instruction, go elsewhere. As for flight schools paying the instructors less than they are collecting, that is, and always has been, the industry norm. If you're an instructor and don't like that, buy a plane or join an agreeable club or find an agreeable FBO to rent from and go independent.
 
But.. you aren't a car dealership and shes not a mechanic.

Without sounding accusatory nor insinuating anything negative... why make the money on the backs of the instructors?

Because that's how our business model is designed. The money has to come from somewhere. The owner of the school built this margin in to the instructional rates.

My analogy about dealerships/mechanics was meant to show this is a very common practice in the business world...to charge more than what an employee is actually getting paid. So no, we aren't a dealership, and she's not a mechanic...but we are a business, and she is an employee.

Instead of charging $29 extra dollars for the instructors time they never see, spread that out over the entire rental fleet wet rates so that non instructional flights are contributing to the overhead... or are you already doing that and simply double billing for overhead with rental and instructional fees?

I wouldn't call having a margin on the rental rates "double billing," per se. It's just the way the business runs.

Let me put this a different way: Without getting in to specific numbers, I can tell you that in 2009, when it was all said and done, the owner of the school *probably* took home *roughly* $10,000 in profit. These are my own calculations I've pieced together from knowing what we're billing and approximately what our expenses are...nothing the owner's ever directly told me.

That means by the time the office, instructors, airplanes, maintenance, insurance, etc. were paid for, the owner had an extra $10k or so to take home.

He also has a BIG stake in the game. A stake to the tune of a hundred grand or so in financing, as well as spending time every day actively running the school. If we go out of business, he has a LOT more to lose than any single employee.

Would you be willing to invest that much time and money in to something in order to make $10k/year?

The reason I'm telling you all this is because I think a lot of times people see flight schools/flight instructors as very one-sided. They see what seem like huge gaps ($49/hour vs. $20/hour) in pay and assume somebody must be getting rich off of another person's work. But that isn't reality. Business is business and this happens to be the way ours is structured.

I knew of several flight schools that allowed freelance instructors, as well as flying clubs (with "freelance" instructors within the club ranks) and it worked out fine and was competitive..

Well...two answers for you here.

First, we are a business, not a flying club. That means we exist to make money. Of course we have other purposes (quality flight training, building enthusiasm for aviation, etc.), but at the end of the day, we are *not* trying to run a break even operation like a club. That alone accounts for a lot of the differences in prices between clubs and actual flight schools.

When it comes to flight schools that use freelance instructors, you're talking about a very different business model. There's nothing particularly wrong with those, but they aren't us and we aren't them.

Schools that use freelance instructors typically have very little structure. Sometimes they have office space, sometimes they don't. Sometimes they follow a standardized syllabus, sometimes they don't. Sometimes they run advertising, sometimes they don't. I could keep listing things, but the bottom line is that they typically have lower overhead as a result of these differences.

The owner of the school and I see a lot of value to having centralized management. We think it improves customer service, training is more thorough, liability is reduced, switching between instructors is easier, safety is improved by having standardized procedures and better oversight, the instructors don't have to do anything other than show up and teach, etc. It's simply a "tighter ship" than a school with freelance instructors.

The final point I should mention is that I have nothing against freelance instructors...I used to be one myself. If Tristan or any other instructor ever decided they'd be better off as a freelancer, I wouldn't hold it against them. It's a free country and our instructors have chosen to work for us. If they see a better way to support themselves, by all means, I say go for it! But for one reason or another, they've decided working for us is better than the alternatives. We're not ripping anyone off...we've simply set up a particular system and our instructors have decided to join us. That's life. Business is business.
 
Why doesn't this board have a "beating a dead horse" smiley? This thread could have used it at least a dozen times so far.
 
Why doesn't this board have a "beating a dead horse" smiley? This thread could have used it at least a dozen times so far.

"Werd" Smiley. :D
 
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