Navion Panel Upgrade (make some recommendations)

[flyingron]

I've got a dead (and wasn't working well when it was alive) MX20, GNS480, GTX33ES, GDL69A and STEC 55X in my Navion (plus some other random stuff KN64, SL30, GMA340, KCS55).
Thinking of modernizing the panel a bit.

I'm looking at:
Garmin GTN750xi
Garmin GTN650xi
Garmin GDL88 ADSB in/out
Garmin Flightstream 210/510

Possibly looking at the GI 275 to replace the AI (and possibly the HSI)

I'd love a GFC500 to replace the rate-based STEC (but it's not on the Garmin horizon yet).

Does this sound sane? Anybody have a recommendation for an Avionics shop in the Carolinas?

Some technical questions. What's the difference in the GDL 82 and 88 really?
What about the flightstream 210/510. The 210 supposedly has AHRS. What does that get me? The bullet item list on Garmin's site says the 510 gets attitude info (but that seeems unlikely given the form factor of an SD card). Is that an error?

 

[Ryan Klems]

GDL 88 is UAT (978) ADS-B Out, and 1090&978 ADS-B In. GDL 82 is UAT ADS-B out only. GDL 82 interfaces inline with your transponders RF output and connects to your existing antenna, the GDL 88 requires its own antenna and either wires in to your transponder via RS232 or interrogates your transponder. FlightStream 210 is a little box, looks almost identical to a GMU 11, that interfaces with your GPS (GTN or GNS-W) and ADS-B source (GDL88 or GTX345) and provides bluetooth link for streaming ADS-B weather and traffic as well as bidirectional flight plan transfer with a portable, it also has an integral AHRS sensor that can send the data to the portable. The FlightStream 510 is a special SD card (MMC) that work in your GTN or GTN Xi (or 2" navigator if you want DB concierge... otherwise the built in connext provides same functionality) to provide bluetooth streaming of ADS-B traffic and weather (assuming a compatible ADS-B in source is connected to the GTN) and bidirectional flight plan transfer. Additionally, the 510 can do WiFi (early in the power on of GTN) to enable the database concierge (pushing of GTN databases using Garmin pilot on your portable). The 510 does send attitude information, if an attitude source is available (GI-275, TXi, or G5/G3X all work IIRC), but does not have AHRS of its own. The 510 is considerably easier install (it's just an SD card after all) than the 210. I'd suggest a GTX 345 over the GDL personally, or even change the GTN650Xi to a GNX375 and GNC255. If you are doing a GNX375, you wouldn't need a flightstream (unless you really wanted database concierge), it'll handle the traffic/weather and flight plan sync, and via crossfill will push to the GTN. A GI-275 would also provide the traffic/weather to a portable via it's built in connext functionality, but I don't think it'll support the bidirectional flight plan sync (can't 100% recall on that) edit: Looked at the 275 Pilot's Guide for 2.60 software, looks like 275 will currently only do flight plan transfer but only to a 2" navigator (GNX375/GNC355/GPS175).

 

[asicer]

GTN750xi as GPS1/NAV1/COM1
GNX375 as GPS2/transponder
You've already got an SL30 that you can use as COM2/NAV2, plus it can digitally interface with GI275's

While you have the checkbook open, you can also slide-in replace the GMA340 with a PMA450b or c.

 

[bnt83]

I've got a dead (and wasn't working well when it was alive) MX20, GNS480, GTX33ES, GDL69A and STEC 55X in my Navion (plus some other random stuff KN64, SL30, GMA340, KCS55).
Thinking of modernizing the panel a bit.

I'm looking at:
Garmin GTN750xi
Garmin GTN650xi
Garmin GDL88 ADSB in/out
Garmin Flightstream 210/510

Possibly looking at the GI 275 to replace the AI (and possibly the HSI)

I'd love a GFC500 to replace the rate-based STEC (but it's not on the Garmin horizon yet).

Does this sound sane? Anybody have a recommendation for an Avionics shop in the Carolinas?

Some technical questions. What's the difference in the GDL 82 and 88 really?
What about the flightstream 210/510. The 210 supposedly has AHRS. What does that get me? The bullet item list on Garmin's site says the 510 gets attitude info (but that seeems unlikely given the form factor of an SD card). Is that an error?

I'd ditch the GDL88 idea and GTX33ES and get a new GTX345, and forget the FS210 and just get one FS510

We have two airplanes, one with GTX 345 and the other has a GTX 327 & GDL 88. Both airplanes have this equipment wired to 650Xi, the GDL 88 is a lot of screwing around wiring and installing a remote box for basically no gain and you end up with two transponder antennas on the belly and I think overall the performance and integration of the GTX 345 is better and weighs less to boot.

If panel space is an issue, get a remote 345.

All the ADS-B in data displayed right on the radio is awesome. Reading weather data and NOTAMs at airports far out of range of VHF is awesome and no portable electronic devices required.

 

[flyingron]

OK, I was thinking it was necessary to keep the GDL69A going, but it looks like that talks direct tot he GTN anyhow. Looks like a GTX345 and a 510 card in the GTX750 and probably get a GI275 for the AI (with a battery backup).

 

[bnt83]

OK, I was thinking it was necessary to keep the GDL69A going, but it looks like that talks direct tot he GTN anyhow. Looks like a GTX345 and a 510 card in the GTX750 and probably get a GI275 for the AI (with a battery backup).

We don't have XM in either airplane or any portable XM service, so I don't have any advice there. We just have full ADS-B in & out via GTX345 in one airplane and GDL88 in the other. To me the traffic works better with the GTX than the GDL. I also feel like the GTX 345 does a better job getting ADS-B data to my iPad through the FS510 no idea why.

The ADS-B in radar resolution looks better on the GTN than the iPad.

I have never tried the attitude indicator thing on my pilot app to know anything about it or how it performs with all the Garmin gear. I know the GTX 345 has that built in as well but I have never actually played with it. Once I had two G5s with two standby batteries and an old vacuum driven gyro off to one side I didn't care. (Vacuum retained due to autopilot needs)

The other airplane has GFC 500 with the optional electric pitch trim.

I've had this stuff for a few years now and I'm still impressed with it. (No pictures of the textual NOTAMS, METARS, TFRs but it does that too)

(prob 10 minutes between each picture)

 

[Doc Holliday]

The saying “Putting a $300 saddle on a $50 horse” comes to mind.

 

[camorton]

A few thoughts:

I second the suggestion for the 345. The GDL88 was Garmin's original ADS-B in/out solution that has largely been replaced by the 345 series.

Also, you don't need a FlightStream box if you get a GI275. That has the equivalent wifi/bluetooth functionality built-in.

The GDL69 is for XM weather. If you kept it, it would be a second source of WX in addition to ADS-B.

 

[flyingron]

Yep, the GDL69A for weather and ball games (now that I got rid of the ADF).
Love to have a GFC500 but they haven't put it on the STC yet.

 

[iamtheari]

The saying “Putting a $300 saddle on a $50 horse” comes to mind.

Indeed. I don’t care how much the horse is worth, I’m happier in a good saddle.

Based on my experience, I would always go with a 750 Xi over a 650 Xi. The 750 is useful as an MFD in ways that the 650 can’t do, plus it allows you to get the transponder and audio panel out of the panel if you spring for the remote versions, which is a matter of personal preference.

I do not see the cost-benefit supporting a dual GPS or dual VOR radio. But that’s another personal preference thing. I see a G3X Touch with its VFR GPS as being an adequate backup to an IFR GPS navigator, at probably a lower price and with much better everyday usefulness compared with a 650 Xi as a backup (especially the engine monitor and MFD features).

My RV-14 has a dual 10” G3X Touch plus a 650 Xi and, if I were doing it over, I would go with a single 10” PFD plus a 750 Xi. Having the 750 in the middle of the panel would be far better than a second G3X display on the copilot side.

 

[mscheuer]

We don't have XM in either airplane or any portable XM service, so I don't have any advice there. We just have full ADS-B in & out via GTX345 in one airplane and GDL88 in the other. To me the traffic works better with the GTX than the GDL. I also feel like the GTX 345 does a better job getting ADS-B data to my iPad through the FS510 no idea why.

The ADS-B in radar resolution looks better on the GTN than the iPad.

I have never tried the attitude indicator thing on my pilot app to know anything about it or how it performs with all the Garmin gear. I know the GTX 345 has that built in as well but I have never actually played with it. Once I had two G5s with two standby batteries and an old vacuum driven gyro off to one side I didn't care. (Vacuum retained due to autopilot needs)

The other airplane has GFC 500 with the optional electric pitch trim.

I've had this stuff for a few years now and I'm still impressed with it. (No pictures of the textual NOTAMS, METARS, TFRs but it does that too)

(prob 10 minutes between each picture)


View attachment 120007

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Thanks, BNT83 for using our PMA8000BT! Wonderful closeup.
Mark Scheuer
PS Engineering

 

[wheaties]

An Aspen drives an STEC-55x better than the GI-375. I've just upgraded and went 2000 MAX. I was advised to go 1000 w/ AP integration plus GTN 750xi. Save the money on labor and go Aspen with your existing 55x. The synthetic vision is awesome, btw.

I also have a Lynx 9000 but would recommend Garmin's 345 transponder if I had gone with a 750xi. I didn't. Money was limited. My plan is to replace my 430W with an Avidyne.

 

[Mongoose Aviator]

Indeed. I don’t care how much the horse is worth, I’m happier in a good saddle.

My thought is. When I am on the horse on the run and the saddle starts to slip off ... What dollar amount would I be wishing I had put into a better saddle at that moment in time? For everybody that is its own thought process.

I went with a 650 (w/ FS510) instead of the 750 because I wanted to retain my 430. Unless I expanded the scope in terms of more massive panel changes, I could fit the 650 & 430 but not the 750 & 430. I did have (barely) enough room for the panel mount 345 and it is really nice being able to push the transponder buttons as fast as I hear the code on the radio from ATC.

I wanted to retain the 430 both because I like the concept of a second device plus I am really comfortable with the 430 and wanted to take my time learning the 650 in the air.

I also have a pair of Aspens (w/ the SV) integrated into everything and driving the old legacy auto-pilot. The Aspen and Garmin devices are fully integrated and I do find the traffic display directly in front of me on the Aspen helpful at times.

 

[tee]

Lots of us spend tones of $$$, just because we are not aware of products costing 1/10th, or assume the less expansive solution is inferior. I have a GTN 650 which is a great companion. It drives my PortaPilot autopilot seamlessly, total install cost is $15k (GTN) plus $2k (2 axis autopilot). Unless you need to fly IFR, a portable GPS navigator driving a PortaPilot autopilot is the least expansive ($2k) and most effective solution.

 

[DreadPirateWill]

We're almost complete on a panel upgrade for our R182, would guess similar use case on a Navion - light IFR XC bird that could be flown fairly hard IFR if needed.
Previous panel was roughly the best 1990 had to offer, twin nav/com no GPS no AP. Ended up with enough on the need/want list that we decided to go clean sheet and replace pretty much everything. Installing 2 10" G3X, G5 backup, GNX375 Nav/XPDR, GNC255 NAV/COM, GFC500, PMA450B, and the associated gear for canbus between units and 6 cyl engine monitoring. Not sure how we'll feel about small form factor GPS, but research shows we'll do most of the programming via the G3X. Time will tell. Bummer Navion not supported on GFC500.