Nashville "National Defense Airspace" not TFR ??

Discussion in 'Flight Following' started by airdale, Dec 26, 2020.

  1. airdale

    airdale Pattern Altitude

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    (I thought I'd find a thread already. Didn't.) What is National Defense Airspace vs a vanilla TFR and why would it be used in the case of this civilian-appearing bombing? I'll admit to looking at pictures vs reading the original text of TFRs, but I don't remember that they include threats of "deadly force."
     
  2. FastEddieB

    FastEddieB Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Nothing showing on WingXPro moving map.
     
  3. airdale

    airdale Pattern Altitude

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    FDC 0/8709 ZME PART 1 OF 2 TN..AIRSPACE NASHVILLE, TN..TEMPORARY FLIGHT RESTRICTION. PURSUANT TO 49 USC 40103(B), THE FEDERAL AVIATION ADMINISTRATION (FAA) CLASSIFIES THE AIRSPACE DEFINED IN THIS NOTAM AS 'NATIONAL DEFENSE AIRSPACE'. PILOTS WHO DO NOT ADHERE TO THE FOLLOWING PROCEDURES MAY BE INTERCEPTED, DETAINED AND INTERVIEWED BY LAW ENFORCEMENT/SECURITY PERSONNEL.

    ANY OF THE FOLLOWING ADDITIONAL ACTIONS MAY ALSO BE TAKEN AGAINST A PILOT WHO DOES NOT COMPLY WITH THE REQUIREMENTS OR ANY SPECIAL INSTRUCTIONS OR PROCEDURES ANNOUNCED IN THIS NOTAM: A) THE FAA MAY TAKE ADMINISTRATIVE ACTION, INCLUDING IMPOSING CIVIL PENALTIES AND THE SUSPENSION OR REVOCATION OF AIRMEN CERTIFICATES; OR B) THE UNITED STATES GOVERNMENT MAY PURSUE CRIMINAL CHARGES, INCLUDING CHARGES UNDER TITLE 49 OF THE UNITED STATES CODE, SECTION 46307; OR C) THE UNITED STATES GOVERNMENT MAY USE DEADLY FORCE AGAINST THE AIRBORNE AIRCRAFT, IF IT IS DETERMINED THAT THE AIRCRAFT POSES AN IMMINENT SECURITY THREAT. PURSUANT TO TITLE 14 CFR SECTION 99.7, SPECIAL SECURITY TEMPORARY 2012252015-2012302245 END PART 1 OF 2 FDC 0/8709 ZME PART 2 OF 2 TN..AIRSPACE NASHVILLE, TN..TEMPORARY FLIGHT FLIGHT INSTRUCTIONS, ALL AIRCRAFT FLIGHT OPERATIONS ARE PROHIBITED WITHIN AN AREA DEFINED AS 1NM RADIUS OF 360952N0864636W (BNA292004.8) SFC-3000FT AGL EFFECTIVE 2012252015 UTC (1415 LOCAL 12/25/20) UNTIL 2012302245 UTC (1645 LOCAL 12/30/20).

    UNLESS AUTHORIZED BY ATC IN CONSULTATION WITH THE AIR TRAFFIC SECURITY COORDINATOR VIA THE DOMESTIC EVENTS NETWORK (DEN). SAIC ADRIAN VAULK, 615-394-0598, IS IN CHARGE OF THE ON SCENE EMERGENCY RESPONSE ACTIVITY. THE FAA COORDINATION FACILITY IS THE DOMESTIC EVENTS NETWORK / DEN/, TELEPHONE 540-422-4423. 2012252015-2012302245 END PART 2 OF 2
     
  4. Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe

    Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    Same as the "Stadium" TFR
    'NATIONAL DEFENSE AIRSPACE'. PILOTS WHO DO NOT ADHERE TO THE FOLLOWING PROCEDURES MAY BE INTERCEPTED, DETAINED AND INTERVIEWED BY LAW ENFORCEMENT/SECURITY PERSONNEL. ANY OF THE FOLLOWING ADDITIONAL ACTIONS MAY ALSO BE TAKEN AGAINST A PILOT WHO DOES NOT COMPLY WITH THE REQUIREMENTS OR ANY SPECIAL INSTRUCTIONS OR PROCEDURES ANNOUNCED IN THIS NOTAM: A) THE FAA MAY TAKE ADMINISTRATIVE ACTION, INCLUDING IMPOSING CIVIL PENALTIES AND THE SUSPENSION OR REVOCATION OF AIRMEN CERTIFICATES; OR B) THE UNITED STATES GOVERNMENT MAY PURSUE CRIMINAL CHARGES, INCLUDING CHARGES UNDER TITLE 49 OF THE UNITED STATES CODE, SECTION 46307; OR C) THE UNITED STATES GOVERNMENT MAY USE DEADLY FORCE AGAINST THE AIRBORNE AIRCRAFT, IF IT IS DETERMINED THAT THE AIRCRAFT POSES AN IMMINENT SECURITY THREAT. SECTION I. STADIUM OR SPORTS EVENTS:

    https://tfr.faa.gov/save_pages/detail_0_0367.html
     
  5. MauleSkinner

    MauleSkinner Final Approach

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    If you flew through a firefighting TFR, you probably wouldn’t be intercepted, detained, and questioned; just violated.
     
  6. murphey

    murphey Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    VP is in Vail, POTUS is in Florida.

    Football games.
    Dec 30 - Nissan Stadium Music Bowl game
    Jan 10 - AFC Wild Card game
     
  7. Bell206

    Bell206 En-Route

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    If I recall a conversation from a number of years ago in a standard TFR they must ask questions first before they shoot you down. In a National Defence Airspace TFR they can shoot you down 1st then ask questions. It came about after 9/11.
     
  8. murphey

    murphey Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    Altho the NDA is over the stadium, remember the explosion on Christmas morning.
     
  9. Clip4

    Clip4 Final Approach

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    Airspace established by the Administrator, in consultation with the Secretary of Defense.
     
  10. kkoran

    kkoran Cleared for Takeoff

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    § 99.7 Special security instructions.
    Each person operating an aircraft in
    an ADIZ or Defense Area must, in addi-
    tion to the applicable rules of this part,
    comply with special security instruc-
    tions issued by the Administrator in
    the interest of national security, pur-
    suant to agreement between the FAA
    and the Department of Defense, or be-
    tween the FAA and a U.S. Federal se-
    curity or intelligence agency.
     
  11. NoHeat

    NoHeat En-Route

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    The 1-mile surface-3000’ TFR that’s active now started Dec 25. It appears to me to be centered at the bomb site, a few blocks south of the football stadium.

    I’m not sure of the purpose, but maybe it’s to allow law enforcement choppers and drones to look for evidence or suspects.
     
  12. NoHeat

    NoHeat En-Route

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  13. Larry in TN

    Larry in TN Pattern Altitude

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    The TFR is centered on 2nd Avenue in downtown Nashville. The stadium is right across the river.

    The area of the blast is in a tourist section of downtown. There's a number of restaurants, a laser tag place, gift shops, etc. all along 2nd Ave. The blast likely destroyed a large number of overpriced cowboy boots. I've seen a guitar-playing Elvis setup nearby many times. He never looked particularly suspicious, but...

    It looks like the bomber went to great lengths to reduce the chance of injuring anyone else. That area would have been deserted, all business closed, at 6:30 AM on Christmas.
     
  14. airdale

    airdale Pattern Altitude

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    OP here. I still do not see a clear answer to my question. Re stadium, the press reports said that the restriction was over the bomb area, so not a stadium TFR.

    I will add a thought here: The blast did serious damage to an AT&T facility, shutting down Nashville BNA tower comms for some period of time. (https://www.usnews.com/news/us/articles/2020-12-25/reports-explosion-rocks-downtown-nashville) I wonder if that AT&T facility was also important to the military or the spooks. That might explain the NDA if someone decided to worry about a more extensive terrorist attack on comm infrastructure.
     
  15. JOhnH

    JOhnH Touchdown! Greaser!

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    ForeFlight has it as a TFR and the description says it is defined as "National Defense Airspace".
     
  16. Bell206

    Bell206 En-Route

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    FWIW: A National Defence Airspace designation changes the rules of engagement and allows deadly force to be used without challenge.
     
  17. 3393RP

    3393RP En-Route

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    The endless and breathless supposition about the AT&T CO and intentional damage to the nation's communication infrastructure border on the ridiculous.

    The perp will be in custody today if he isn't already, and it will be discovered he's just another loser that happened to know how to make something explode.
     
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  18. FastEddieB

    FastEddieB Touchdown! Greaser!

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    The perp was almost certainly killed in the explosion in a suicide. Might have had its roots in 5G paranoia. Took down our AT&T signal near Knoxville for about 5 hours.
     
  19. airdale

    airdale Pattern Altitude

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    Yes, thanks to several who mentioned this, but my question is still: Why? TFRs over SAR or crime scenes are not uncommon. But "deadly force" ??!?!!
     
  20. flyingron

    flyingron Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    This is the phrasing that came into effect after 911. For some stupid assed reason the media is making a big thing about the penalties for violation clause, though they're pretty much the same as used in any security-based TFR for over a decade.

    Latest rumor is the perpetrator is some whack-job 5G conspiracy theorist whose target was the ATT facility.
     
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  21. NoHeat

    NoHeat En-Route

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    My guess:

    It was a detonation of a big bomb in a public space. In the hours after the explosion, when the TFR decision is made, nobody knows yet whether it is mass terror, but that would certainly be a possibility that would distinguish the location from other crime scenes or search-and-rescue locations.

    You would expect mass-terror sites to allow deadly force by the military. It now appears not to be mass terror, and with no active threat now, but the TFR is started in the hazy hours after the explosion, when it isn’t known.

    Just a guess.
     
    Last edited: Dec 27, 2020
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  22. GaryM

    GaryM Line Up and Wait

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    You’d think, if they believed there was the remotest chance that use of deadly force might be necessary, they’d make the TFR bigger than 3000 feet and one mile radius.
     
  23. Bell206

    Bell206 En-Route

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    As mentioned, I believe any intentional explosion over a certain level by unknown individuals becomes a federal issue with certain SOP automatically triggered. But don't know for sure. Have seen these type TFRs issued along the GOM at certain facilities after similar events.
    Just a guess, but maybe it was designed toward drones/operators vs aircraft. There's been a lot of discussion over that scenario in recent years.
     
  24. airdale

    airdale Pattern Altitude

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    Yup. Me, too. That's why I posted the question, looking for someone who might actually know.
     
  25. wsuffa

    wsuffa Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Newsweek published a story with the 5G rumor in it. And that rumor seems to be spreading faster than Covid-19. One of the local news outlets in Nashville noted that the POI's dad used to work for BellSouth (now AT&T) and that the POI was an IT contractor (and said something about neighbors thinking he was a little "off".

    The national defense airspace designation is because the motive isn't known and the assets working the investigation include anti-terrorism folks.
     
  26. Bell206

    Bell206 En-Route

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    Called a knowledgeable person. Type and size of a TFR is dictated by guidance based on what Part 91/99 subsection/paragraph the TFR was authorized/issued under. The most restrictive TFRs tend to be 1 to 5 nautical miles wide and 3000 to 5000 AGL on average. There are set procedures for each type of TFR that must be adhered to as it provides a regulatory/legal framework with which to enforce it. So once a specific type TFR/NOTAM is issued all requirements of that type TFR are enforced regardless of the events on the ground until the TFR is cancelled. He said the "deadly force" is tied directly to the type of TFR authorized and is spelled out along with any other restrictions in the notice.
     
  27. flyingron

    flyingron Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    As I pointed out earlier...the deadly force and all that stuff is boiler plate for these security notams.
     
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  28. Cap'n Jack

    Cap'n Jack Final Approach

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    This is PoA. Everyone is an expert in everything :rolleyes:
     
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  29. Larry in TN

    Larry in TN Pattern Altitude

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    I have been on PoA for some time and just want to point out that it isn't everyone; just some of us.
     
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  30. flhrci

    flhrci Final Approach

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    Oh wow, you went there! LOL
     
  31. MauleSkinner

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    So you’re calling @Cap'n Jack a liar.
    (That’s a statement, not a question, because I know what you’re thinking.):p
     
  32. Cap'n Jack

    Cap'n Jack Final Approach

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    Naw, he's just saying I'm mistaken. I am, it only seems my statement is true, sometimes. My apologies.
     
  33. MauleSkinner

    MauleSkinner Final Approach

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    Just cuz I thought of the lyrics about callin’ Jack a liar... ;)

     
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  34. Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe

    Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    As mentioned in post 4, "national defense airspace" is a vanilla TFR. Just like the stadium TFR. Same wording.
    Again, same as the stadium TFR - includes threats of "deadly force". The only difference is that it is not over a stadium and is only one mile in radius.