[NA] Student Loan refinancing

[TCABM]

… It's really not useful to make sweeping generalizations when it comes to education. ….

Really? You’ve made some really sweeping generalizations about education and then ducked behind the “spin zone” shield.

I can guarantee three thing; no college degree has ever signed for a student loan, no college degree has ever received income, and no college degree has ever had to balance a check book.

The people who’ve earned those degrees have done those things. The people who do those things are the ones who also choose whether or not to work in the career field their degree is in. They also choose how to use the income they generate to manage their financial commitments. It’s just as easy to find a 30-yr old bankrupt MD with $250k+ in loans as it is to find a 30-yr old MD with zero student debt, both holding paper from the same exact programs at the same exact institutions.

People make choices based on their values and life experiences, which may or may not reflect on the academic knowledge they’ve retained long enough to get a degree. Once we divorce that concept and accept each person does with whatever education they have whatever they want, we realize it’s people (and their behaviors) that are the yardstick for quality.

 

[SoonerAviator]

91% at Division I - which is higher than the non-student athletes.

Student-athletes graduate at record highs - NCAA.org

Division I student-athletes are graduating at record rates, according to the latest Graduation Success Rate data announced Wednesday. The overall single-cohort rate increased by 1 point to 91%, which is the highest rate recorded.

www.ncaa.org

It's amazing what happens when your academic progress is constantly monitored and you have access to additional tutoring/assistance in order to maintain eligibility for playing on the football squad! Non-athletes would probably have similar results if someone were on their butts constantly about their grades, lol. Many also tend to have some fairly mundane degree choices like Exercise Science, Sports Management, or Communications. Not everyone can be an academic All-American though.

 

[EdFred]

It's amazing what happens when your academic progress is constantly monitored and you have access to additional tutoring/assistance in order to maintain eligibility for playing on the football squad! Non-athletes would probably have similar results if someone were on their butts constantly about their grades, lol. Many also tend to have some fairly mundane degree choices like Exercise Science, Sports Management, or Communications. Not everyone can be an academic All-American though.

Yeah, but football and basketball are lowest graduation rate. Highest graduation rates are from the sports that are usually associated with kids wearing sweater vests tied around their neck and probably decent students on their own.

 

[AKiss20]

It's amazing what happens when your academic progress is constantly monitored and you have access to additional tutoring/assistance in order to maintain eligibility for playing on the football squad! Non-athletes would probably have similar results if someone were on their butts constantly about their grades, lol. Many also tend to have some fairly mundane degree choices like Exercise Science, Sports Management, or Communications. Not everyone can be an academic All-American though.

I think the “rocks for jocks” type rubber stamp classes and grade inflation has a good chunk to do with that. Even places like Stanford famously had lists of “easy classes” being circulated among athletes. Does every D1 athlete breeze through trivial classes for a no value degree? No, of course not. But it’s naive to think that the graduation percentage stat alone tells the entire story or that it doesn’t happen, especially at schools where athletics is viewed as a core part of the school identity (and revenue stream…).

If I had my way, education and pro sports pipelines would be divorced. Club sports at college sure fine, but none of this “to get the pro leagues you have to play at college” like for the NFL or NBA. Universities are places of education. That’s why they exist. Pro sports leagues should develop their own minor league talent pipelines, not hijack higher education for that purpose. That’s how it is in the rest of the world AFAIK.

 

[SoonerAviator]

I think the “rocks for jocks” type rubber stamp classes and grade inflation has a good chunk to do with that. Even places like Stanford famously had lists of “easy classes” being circulated among athletes. Does every D1 athlete breeze through trivial classes for a no value degree? No, of course not. But it’s naive to think that the graduation percentage stat alone tells the entire story or that it doesn’t happen, especially at schools where athletics is viewed as a core part of the school identity (and revenue stream…).

If I had my way, education and pro sports pipelines would be divorced. Club sports at college sure fine, but none of this “to get the pro leagues you have to play at college” like for the NFL or NBA. Universities are places of education. That’s why they exist. Pro sports leagues should develop their own minor league talent pipelines, not hijack higher education for that purpose. That’s how it is in the rest of the world AFAIK.

Agreed. Although I'm sure if that occurred, women's sports would all but disappear due to there being very little pro-level opportunity.

 

[AKiss20]

Agreed. Although I'm sure if that occurred, women's sports would all but disappear due to there being very little pro-level opportunity.

I mean there are pro women’s leagues no? I know they are like an order of magnitude smaller and less popular, but if there is enough market for them to exist why does college need to be involved for them to have a talent development pipeline?

 

[2-Bit Speed]

but if there is enough market for them to exist

Who says there's sufficient market for them to exist? Most exist off of subsidies from the men's leagues.

 

[172andyou]

I mean there are pro women’s leagues no?

Basketball, yes.
Soccer, yes.
Are there others?

Tennis and golf are the only two other sports I can think of that have televised competitions, but they are individual sports, not leagues.

I had a friend that played semi-pro womens hockey. She didn't make enough to cover her gear.

Notably, there have been multiple attempts to do womens football. But all I'm aware of have turned into bikini leagues and/or failed.

But I'm gonna beat the drum again, maybe a bit more directly. This thread seems to only value education that turns into a career. Education is more important than just that single goal.

 

[SoonerAviator]

Who says there's sufficient market for them to exist? Most exist off of subsidies from the men's leagues.

Yup. The largest of them is the WNBA which operates at a huge net loss each year which is covered by the NBA. There have been a number of pro women's softball leagues that have started up and failed, despite being an objectively fun sport to watch as a spectator, especially at the collegiate level (OU Sooner bias notwithstanding). Individual sports like golf, tennis, swimming, etc would carry on without much issue as the collegiate affiliation isn't the only avenue to reach the pros. If there's no college/minor league programs to carry the sport forward, you'd likely see a drop in some of the sport participation at the youth ages as well, which would be unfortunate for tens of thousands of girls to say the least.

 

[TCABM]

Once the US started allowing pro athletes to participate in the Olympics, the case for collegiate sports/amateur athletes kind of died.

 

[AKiss20]

But I'm gonna beat the drum again, maybe a bit more directly. This thread seems to only value education that turns into a career. Education is more important than just that single goal.

I certainly didn’t say that. I just want education and commercialized, pro-to-be level sports to be separated so that universities focus on education, not sports programs. Again, no issue with club sports in universities.

 

[AKiss20]

Yup. The largest of them is the WNBA which operates at a huge net loss each year which is covered by the NBA. There have been a number of pro women's softball leagues that have started up and failed, despite being an objectively fun sport to watch as a spectator, especially at the collegiate level (OU Sooner bias notwithstanding). Individual sports like golf, tennis, swimming, etc would carry on without much issue as the collegiate affiliation isn't the only avenue to reach the pros. If there's no college/minor league programs to carry the sport forward, you'd likely see a drop in some of the sport participation at the youth ages as well, which would be unfortunate for tens of thousands of girls to say the least.

I’m all for minor league programs, just don’t mix them with universities. What is so hard about that? If you’re one day aspiring to be a pro athlete, why should you go to college any more than an aspiring welder or electrician? To me minor leagues should be the sports equivalent of trade school.

 

[172andyou]

I certainly didn’t say that. I just want education and commercialized, pro-to-be level sports to be separated so that universities focus on education, not sports programs. Again, no issue with club sports in universities.

Didn't mean to imply that was directed at you.

I think you and I are on the same page.

 

[2-Bit Speed]

But I'm gonna beat the drum again, maybe a bit more directly. This thread seems to only value education that turns into a career. Education is more important than just that single goal.

Sure. But not at my expense.

 

[TCABM]

…. This thread seems to only value education that turns into a career. Education is more important than just that single goal.

I’ve been in the adult learning business most of my career, first as a .mil aircrew instructor/evaluator, and now in the business space. Education is a powerful tool, but colleges and universities aren’t the inly places learning occurs, even in the classics.

My position is (and always has been) if you’re going to go into six+ figures of debt for a piece of paper before you can legally buy a beer or a pack of smokes (in some states), you better have a damn good idea how your going to service that debt along with all the other expenses you incur to live life as an independent adult.

As a society, Americans overvvalue the parchment while putting too much faith in the outcomes it’s supposed to produce. That only somewhere between 38-52% of student loans are ever fully satisfied tells the story that needs to be told: if the paper was worth it, the income would follow and the delinquency rates wouldn’t exist. That it doesn’t speaks volumes.

 

[Bob Noel]

...

As a society, Americans overvvalue the parchment while putting too much faith in the outcomes it’s supposed to produce. That only somewhere between 38-52% of student loans are ever fully satisfied tells the story that needs to be told: if the paper was worth it, the income would follow and the delinquency rates wouldn’t exist. That it doesn’t speaks volumes.

well, to be fair, it might also be that some people don't have the integrity to honor the promises they made.

 

[172andyou]

I’ve been in the adult learning business most of my career, first as a .mil aircrew instructor/evaluator, and now in the business space. Education is a powerful tool, but colleges and universities aren’t the inly places learning occurs, even in the classics.

Yep. Literally true. But has got to be misleading. Isn't it true that like half of americans read at 8th grade level or less? And like a third never read another book after high school? As a nation, we leave a lot of people behind.

But, yes, the non-fiction best seller list does have some legit topics covered.

My position is (and always has been) if you’re going to go into six+ figures of debt for a piece of paper before you can legally buy a beer or a pack of smokes (in some states), you better have a damn good idea how your going to service that debt along with all the other expenses you incur to live life as an independent adult.

I think this might be where we are talking past each other a bit. My position is that the nation benefits by having education be available without taking on six figure debt and having to sharpen a pencil and math out whether or not it's going to pay for itself.

As a society, Americans overvvalue the parchment while putting too much faith in the outcomes it’s supposed to produce. That only somewhere between 38-52% of student loans are ever fully satisfied tells the story that needs to be told: if the paper was worth it, the income would follow and the delinquency rates wouldn’t exist. That it doesn’t speaks volumes.

See above.

 

[judypilot]

I'm a retired university professor and I can tell you from the inside all that's wrong with the system. When I first started (late, because I was in government service for awhile before I switched to professoring, which was another kind of government service, since I spent my career at state schools), I was shocked at the lack of preparedness of the students and the pressure to go easy on them. I also began to increasingly doubt the statistic that said college graduates earn more, and became more and more doubtful about that as my career went on. I think the averages are skewed by a relatively small percentage who earn WAY more; I'm not convinced that if you took out, say, the top 10% of high-earning college grads that a college education would prove to be that much better, especially in light of the explosion of student loan debt. In recent (say, the last 15-20) years, I'm really not convinced because people who are skilled in the trades are earning really great money now. Yes, maybe the eye-watering incomes are still earned by college grads in a few fields, but let's face it, most college grads now don't have the kind of skills to get there. Just having a degree is essentially meaningless now; most of them don't know that much more than they did when they started. When I was still taking on grad students, I didn't care what their GPA was or what school they graduated from. My focus was almost entirely on the scores on the dreaded standard tests and on the letters of recommendation. If the student had high scores and stellar letters (with key phrases like "smart", "self-motivated", "identified an interesting new problem", etc.), he was probably pretty good. Otherwise, meh. (Side note: I'm a geologist, so in the sciences.)

Several years ago a friend of mine called me up and told me his daughter did not want to go to college, that she wanted to go to welding school. He wanted to know what I thought about it. My reaction was, in effect, "You go girl!" She and her husband, also a welder, can write their own ticket, have started several of their own businesses (which, in her case, includes setting up near hunting areas and butchering the animals on site for hunters), and are doing extremely well. No debt.

Needless to say, I'm a huge fan of Mike Rowe.