NA Setting up a server

weilke said:
The numbers keep getting smaller ;) That 20kbit Citrix is going to be very pixelated and compressed with every window you move leaving a ghost for a couple of seconds. btdtgtts

I have a satellite office hanging off a 1mbit/8mbit cable modem. We have a provider there 1 day/month which was this monday. 9 o clock in the morning, the utility managed to create a short outage that fried the cable companies distribution and it wasn't fixed until the close of business. With the on-site server/workstation architecture that we used to have, we could have been taking care of patients all day. By being dependent on a off-site server (in this case the main office, but it would have been the same for a cloud solution), we were dead in the water. Cloud solutions are great if you sit in a city office building with FIOS and a T1 for backup, if you are in the boonies at the end of a long pipe, not so much.
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Also, certainly there is a single point of failure (the circuit) which must be considered.
 
Let'sgoflying! said:
I looked at my isp (ATT) and they do not list up speeds, only down. 3/6/12/18 down
Not sure if I can improve on up.

PS this generously donated server has one year on the hobbs meter, even if has a few years on it, do we really think it is about to start shedding parts?

Let's reconsider also that this is a sleepy, slow business. The server will be napping most of the time.

Thanks for the input.
Click to expand...

If you can get those DSL speeds, then cloud solutions are definitely options, and probably preferable. For full disclosure, I'm not a big "cloud" fan. I laugh at all the vendors that try and push it on us because it doesn't fit our needs. But, the sleepy company with 5 employees and no IT are precisely what infrastructure on demand and software as a service is designed for. Office 365 and OneDrive for your file sharing, Intuit Quickbooks online for your accounting and a new printer from Office Depot with a built-in web server, and you're set.
 
So with Quickbooks, I can have the Cloud company (or Cloud 'host'?) own the QB software instead of me?
 
just chatted with Intuit. He didn't say it wouldn't work, just that it would be sub-optimal. Doesn't sound promising.
 
Let'sgoflying! said:
just chatted with Intuit. He didn't say it wouldn't work, just that it would be sub-optimal. Doesn't sound promising.
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The bandwidth? Call ATT and see what you can get. Often, if you haven't upgraded in a while, you can end up saving money too
 
John221us said:
The hardware scrapes in at the minimum for Windows 2012 (1.6 GHz proc and the minimum is 1.5 GHz). The proc came out in '06 and went end of life (EoL) Q1 of '09. In all likely hood this server is at least 7 years old (ancient in server years). Windows 2012 won't even install, if it detects you don't have the minimum requirements. Personally, if you want used, I would consider picking up something a little newer off of eBay, before you make all this effort. A seven year old server is very old. It will definitely need more RAM (I would add at least 4 Gb). The hard drive space is pretty low by today's standards, but if he doesn't have much data, it will probably work.

The are a couple of reasons you don't want users running RDP sessions on your DC. The first one is security. You need to give users local login rights on the server in order to do this. This is a really big security hole. They would then also be able to open browsers and download bad things directly to the server, quite possibly giving strange people in eastern Europe and China direct access to your server (wasn't that a cute kitten video they just clicked on?). The second and probably most important reason is stability. A user running apps directly on the server can cause the server to lock up or crash. Remember, unlike a workstation, you can't just reboot it anytime you like. A server plays an important role in any business, even small ones. You need to make sure it is reliable and secure.

There is a way to offer Terminal Services without additional hardware and that is to take advantage of server virtualization. Windows Server 2012 Standard (not Essentials) grants you 2 virtual server licenses, in addition to the host license. With adequate hardware (the above would not be adequate), you can create a Hyper-V (or VMWare) host on the underlying hardware and virtualize your server and then a separate server for the Terminal Server role. This would meet best practices. There is additional CAL licensing required to run more than 2 users for Terminal Services. If you are going to virtualize and run Terminal Services, I would consider 16 Gb of RAM the minimum and would probably recommend more.

It wasn't mentioned, but it is also important if you are running Terminal Services, that you secure access to the Terminal Server. This can be done with most firewalls and Internet routers today, using an SSL or IPSEC VPN. If Dave is going to configure remote access, he should definitely get some help, to make sure it is properly secured. Adequate backups are also going to be a consideration and Dave should probably also consult someone about his requirements around that, as well.
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Been busy but coming back to the thread, that was really well done. 2012 R2 is not a good idea on that box and the CAL licensing at their size is the kicker. Nope.

The company I'm at was using only a slightly faster machine and Server 2003 to be the "one server to rule all" like that, and it's taken a number of months to unravel the mess made by a contractor and then the previous sysadmin.

That machine is going to be retasked as a call recording server on site for the phone system upgrade, but it got all new drives and maxed out on brand new RAM sticks and a thorough cleaning of the internal guts and fans. And it won't be the end of the world if it drops offline. It also has the best (for its age) hardware RAID controller and hot swap cage that was available back then and does reasonably fast disk I/O for just stuffing audio files constantly to the drives.

bflynn said:
I run a linux server at home and for a while had it connected to port 22 for my remote access. I monitor the logs every so often and have caught several (Chinese) IP addresses running brute force password hacks against it. Things like this will happen and you need to know that they will and be prepared for them.
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Side note: Move ssh off of port 22 and run fail2ban at a minimum. Adding all the RIPE and APNIC blocks as permanently dropped in iptables too. That's the bare minimum I'd do with a box on a public IP and if sftp is needed and clients are using stuff like FileZilla and expecting port 22 for convenience, sftp would be chrooted.

The days of the password are nearly over. If it's not needed for a business purpose, key based auth is pretty much the lowest you really want.

Passwords just aren't secure anymore with "low and slow" password attacks that even tools like fail2ban have a hard time tracking. With passwords, it's not a matter of if, it's a matter of when, they'll be broken.

Multifactor auth or something centralized via encrypted LDAP or Kerberos that isn't accessible to anything other than trusted internal machines, is even better.

If you have to have a password, make it incredibly long and obnoxious.
 
Let'sgoflying! said:
I should clarify; this is a very small business with modest IT needs.
This came about because I want to be able store files in one place, and have access to them from several places in the office, and occasionally while traveling.
5 users max. Some internet activity. Quickbooks multi-user will be our main software. I don't know right now what our database size is but likely tiny compared to what the pro IT people here deal with. I can use a flashdrive to put it all on. We are using ~10 year old desktops without trouble, if that gives you an idea.
I am reading an old forum thread about Windows Home Server machines with preloaded server software; is something like that possible?
Click to expand...

What would happen to the business if you lost everything on the server?
 
bflynn said:
What would happen to the business if you lost everything on the server?
Click to expand...

We'd go to paper in order to get through the next couple of days while rebuilding from the backup. Or if you mean the server hardware failed, we would overnight parts or a new one and rebuild when it arrived. In the meantime we could not tell clients their balance owed.....but that is not really a problem - they are never asking to pay me anyway!
 
That question, "what would you do if it was down, and how long can it be down" is known as Business Continuity planning. It's probably the most often overlooked piece of any IT plan in any company until a certain size is reached and company policy mandates certain things be done.

(e.g. No system may ever be deployed without a working and TESTED backup plan.)

And even the largest organizations get it wrong.

CenturyLink wiped out their entire nationwide 800 # routing table for about seven hours yesterday and the information that leaked showed a distinct lack of testing of the recovery plan.

(Which is probably why the recovery took so many hours. Usually when the untested recovery plan doesn't work, the higher level engineers are dragged into a conference call to discuss how to REALLY do it because the plan barfed and they need to think through each step. I bet there's written plans that failed being revised at CenturyLink today. And a whole lot of meetings with people who could not recover the SS7 database to save their lives, "weighing in" on the whole thing while the engineer has them on speakerphone and is correcting their misconceptions about how their own systems actually work, while writing the new scripts with better warnings about the results of running them and pre-requisites for doing so, plugging the holes in the process by making the software ask "Are you sure? Y/N?" Heh. BTDT.)
 
gkainz said:
I would suggest if you really do that, make it "Incr3d1b7Y#70nG#&#0bn0xi0uS:)&!@*4G00dMea5ur3"
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I've already got that substitution routine for the dictionary cracker...

database admins can be easy targets on Friday afternoon, snark, snark
 
+1 for NAS or setting one of the PC's up as a file server, Workgroup only with that small of an office.

Pick the newest/best/most storage, share a folder, and back that one up.

move on....
 
John221us said:
Satellite generally has much higher latency than that.
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Not just generally, always, light is only so fast.

A geosync satellite is something like 22,000 miles away. Speed of light is something like 186,000 miles per second.

22000/186000 = 118 ms

118 ms from you to the sat
118 ms from the sat to the ground
50 ms or so of time spent going from the sat company to the server via the internet
118 ms back to the sat
118 ms from the sat back to you

is 522 ms best case scenario.

They only have so much capacity. Packets can get lost. You might have to ask for them again. Etc. It gets ugly quickly. So best case scenario speed of light is too latent to be useful for most modern internet stuff (lots of requests, lots of AJAX these days, etc). Real world latency is more like three times that typically, somewhere around 1500 ms, with a concerning amount of packet loss.

Works OK for downloading files..but browsing or doing much of anything useful is a lost cause. Developers these days don't build things to work with 1500 ms.
 
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jimbilly said:
+1 for NAS or setting one of the PC's up as a file server, Workgroup only with that small of an office.
Pick the newest/best/most storage, share a folder, and back that one up.
move on....
Click to expand...

Will that (NAS) fulfill my requirement? (from first post) :
There will be about 5 users, (new desktops, laptops); maybe 5 programs including QB multi-user, internet access & wifi, use of Remote Desktop, an employee time-card device and software, a bunch of printers.
 
Let'sgoflying! said:
We'd go to paper in order to get through the next couple of days while rebuilding from the backup. Or if you mean the server hardware failed, we would overnight parts or a new one and rebuild when it arrived. In the meantime we could not tell clients their balance owed.....but that is not really a problem - they are never asking to pay me anyway!
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I have done a fair amount of Disaster Recovery (DR) /Business Continuity planning (arguably, this isn't either, as the loss of a server is typically considered tactical, but in this case, that constitutes your whole data center) and realistically, unless you have IT resources and hardware or virtual resources pre-lined up, down time will be closer to a week. The big issue it seems, is QuickBooks billing, which can be solved by moving it to the cloud. For some companies I have worked with, the loss of cash flow from losing a week of billings is a big issue, but it might not be in your case.

jimbilly said:
+1 for NAS or setting one of the PC's up as a file server, Workgroup only with that small of an office.

Pick the newest/best/most storage, share a folder, and back that one up.

move on....
Click to expand...

A PC isn't a good choice, because it isn't a stable platform. The user could reboot it or do something to lock it up and that could cause data corruption for the other users. A NAs is a better choice.

jesse said:
Not just generally, always, light is only so fast.

A geosync satellite is something like 22,000 miles away. Speed of light is something like 186,000 miles per second.

22000/186000 = 118 ms

118 ms from you to the sat
118 ms from the sat to the ground
50 ms or so of time spent going from the sat company to the server via the internet
118 ms back to the sat
118 ms from the sat back to you

is 522 ms best case scenario.

They only have so much capacity. Packets can get lost. You might have to ask for them again. Etc. It gets ugly quickly. So best case scenario speed of light is too latent to be useful for most modern internet stuff (lots of requests, lots of AJAX these days, etc). Real world latency is more like three times that typically, somewhere around 1500 ms, with a concerning amount of packet loss.

Works OK for downloading files..but browsing or doing much of anything useful is a lost cause. Developers these days don't build things to work with 1500 ms.
Click to expand...

Good to know.
 
John221us said:
A NAs is a better choice.
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Will that (NAS) fulfill my requirement? (from first post) :
There will be about 5 users, (new desktops, laptops); maybe 5 programs including QB multi-user, internet access & wifi, use of Remote Desktop, an employee time-card device and software, a bunch of printers.
 
Let'sgoflying! said:
Will that (NAS) fulfill my requirement? (from first post) :
There will be about 5 users, (new desktops, laptops); maybe 5 programs including QB multi-user, internet access & wifi, use of Remote Desktop, an employee time-card device and software, a bunch of printers.
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Hi Dave,
Below are some clarifying questions:

5 Programs - What are they? Are they server based or multi-user? If you are talking about MS Office, that would not be an issue

Internet Access & Wifi - This is typically handled by an Internet router and not the server

Remote Desktop - What are you using this for? Access to QuickBooks? Access to files? Anything else? QuickBooks would be resolved by moving it to the cloud.

Employee time-card device and software - I would need to know more about the software and the requirements. Does it live on a server and run all the time (server based) or is a workstation application that polls the time clock device? If you could post the details (make, model and software) I could provide more info.

Printers - While server based printing is nice (central control of print jobs) it is not required for network printing. Most network capable printers have a built in print server and you can simply do "IP based" printing. In other words, you can configure each workstation to print directly to the printer and the built in print server will sequence and manage the jobs. If you are sharing a printer connected directly to a workstation, that can be done, too, but the process is a little different.

The NAS is a single purpose device. It allows file sharing. It isn't going to run applications or such. Some of them have the ability to let you connect to them remotely.

What are you using for email now? Do you have central calendaring?
 
You dont need MS server to have a quickbooks multi-user installation. You can host the QB file in multi-user mode on a PC with a shared directory. You dont want to host this on a PC that is also used as a workstation, just dedicate a machine to fileserver status and lock it in a closet. Back up that folder to a cloud service.

As for NAS boxes. I had one for general file server duties. The thing always ran hot, so did the warranty replacement. 3 years in one of the drives fried. I can't remember the last time I had a hardware failure on a PC.

As mentioned, most of your network duties will be performed by your router/firewall. If you dont need multiple users to access your system at the same time, there is no need to have a dedicated terminal server. Each windows PC can serve one remote desktop. A properly set up firewall can allow you to access your office network remotely via VPN.

From what you say about your operation, getting into MS Server may be more trouble than its worth.
 
John221us said:
5 Programs - What are they?
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-will be buying Quickbooks, the version one for businesses, with payroll, 5-user version. Maybe "Enterprise"?
-Open office
-Paint, Adobe, a web browser
-Maybe payroll, maybe not; see below
Are they server based or multi-user?
Click to expand...
not sure.
Internet Access & Wifi - This is typically handled by an Internet router and not the server
Click to expand...
Great
Remote Desktop - What are you using this for? Access to QuickBooks? Access to files? Anything else? QuickBooks would be resolved by moving it to the cloud.
Click to expand...
Access to all programs listed would be the goal. Certainly Quickbooks, while on the road or from home.
Employee time-card device and software - I would need to know more about the software and the requirements. Does it live on a server and run all the time (server based) or is a workstation application that polls the time clock device? If you could post the details (make, model and software) I could provide more info.
Click to expand...
Right now I am using Lathem - a card swipe device, and the program is on one of the two home-networked computers. Thinking about this however, I am pretty sure we are going to a web-based one "Uattend".
Printers - While server based printing is nice (central control of print jobs) it is not required for network printing. Most network capable printers have a built in print server and you can simply do "IP based" printing. In other words, you can configure each workstation to print directly to the printer and the built in print server will sequence and manage the jobs. If you are sharing a printer connected directly to a workstation, that can be done, too, but the process is a little different.
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I want each of 5 workstations to have a simple laser printer. Because I tend to run out of cartridges and forget to order I think I need a way to print from any workstation, to any printer.
What are you using for email now?
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I get my mail on my laptop. There is no business email. In fact no biz computer is connected to the internet at this time but the new system will be.
Employees will have a minor need to receive biz emails ie from time to time only.
Do you have central calendaring?
Click to expand...
No.
 
Let'sgoflying! said:
-will be buying Quickbooks, the version one for businesses, with payroll, 5-user version. Maybe "Enterprise"?
-Open office
-Paint, Adobe, a web browser
-Maybe payroll, maybe not; see below

not sure.

Great

Access to all programs listed would be the goal. Certainly Quickbooks, while on the road or from home.

Right now I am using Lathem - a card swipe device, and the program is on one of the two home-networked computers. Thinking about this however, I am pretty sure we are going to a web-based one "Uattend".

I want each of 5 workstations to have a simple laser printer. Because I tend to run out of cartridges and forget to order I think I need a way to print from any workstation, to any printer.

I get my mail on my laptop. There is no business email. In fact no biz computer is connected to the internet at this time but the new system will be.
Employees will have a minor need to receive biz emails ie from time to time only.

No.
Click to expand...

These are workstation applications and only need file system access (a NAS or such will work)
-Open office
-Paint, Adobe, a web browser

"a web-based one "Uattend"." If it is Web based, then you should be OK without a server

If you have not bought the printers yet, get ones with a built in network interface (they really don't cost much more, if anything). It will greatly simplify sharing them.

There are lots of Web based solutions for email, such as GoDaddy or Office 365 (might be overkill for you) that you can use your own domain.

I would definitely reconsider using QuickBooks online. It should work fine for you. It does not have high bandwidth requirements, since it is done from a browser. They have a 30 day free trial. This will also solve most of your remote access requirements, since it is in the cloud and can be accessed from anywhere.

I would say you don't need a server. Many NAS devices offer a "private cloud" solution that would let you remotely access your files as well.
 
OK, thanks.
Does an NAS need software or is it just a storage device?
 
John221us said:
These are workstation applications and only need file system access (a NAS or such will work)
Click to expand...

So each station would have a desktop or laptop computer, keyboard, screen.
They would all be CAT VI to the a switch? And that is connected to an NAS device, and router. Each printer also connected to the switch. (I may have that device wrong)

5 users can connect to the internet and do things on the Intuit site with our company file at the same time. (Usually it will be one or two users at any one time).

I can connect to our office from home or Alaska or Budapest and access files using the NAS Private Cloud, and I can go to Intuit and work on the Quickbooks company file.

Sound close?
 
Let'sgoflying! said:
OK, thanks.
Does an NAS need software or is it just a storage device?
Click to expand...

It's a box. It does its own thing. It has a little web server to pull up a management interface to do things like creating the directory structure, assigning rights etc.
 
So I need an NAS, not the RAID-5 Server I have.

So I look up NAS to find out what they are and what does it say but it is a server with RAID disks!

I know you guys are not trolling me, but!
 
Let'sgoflying! said:
So I need an NAS, not the RAID-5 Server I have.
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'Raid5' just refers to a particular way to string a number of hard drives together to either improve performance or gain a setup that allows for one disc to die without loss of data. A Raid5 can be installed in a server running MSServer, Unix, Linux or any number of other operating systems.

NAS just refers to a standalone device that provides only storage on a network. Inside, it is basically a small server that runs either a proprietary operating system or linux. A NAS could have a single drive or several drives in different RAID configurations.
 
Let'sgoflying! said:
So each station would have a desktop or laptop computer, keyboard, screen.

They would all be CAT VI to the a switch? And that is connected to an NAS device, and router. Each printer also connected to the switch. (I may have that device wrong)



5 users can connect to the internet and do things on the Intuit site with our company file at the same time. (Usually it will be one or two users at any one time).



I can connect to our office from home or Alaska or Budapest and access files using the NAS Private Cloud, and I can go to Intuit and work on the Quickbooks company file.



Sound close?
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Yes, I think you have it.

weilke said:
'Raid5' just refers to a particular way to string a number of hard drives together to either improve performance or gain a setup that allows for one disc to die without loss of data. A Raid5 can be installed in a server running MSServer, Unix, Linux or any number of other operating systems.

NAS just refers to a standalone device that provides only storage on a network. Inside, it is basically a small server that runs either a proprietary operating system or linux. A NAS could have a single drive or several drives in different RAID configurations.
Click to expand...


Correct. RAID 5 does protect against single disk failure. Other types of RAID are designed to increase performance or protect against multiple disk failures. It uses parity striping. This allows any one disk to fail, but you only give up one disk for the redundancy. There is a minimum of three disks needed for RAID 5. The lower end NAS will probably only have two disks, so you will use RAID 1, which is disk mirroring. RAID 1 has slightly better write performance than RAID 5, but you give up 1/2 your disk space for redundancy.
 
John221us said:
The lower end NAS will probably only have two disks, so you will use RAID 1, which is disk mirroring. RAID 1 has slightly better write performance than RAID 5, but you give up 1/2 your disk space for redundancy.
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I actually have a laptop with two discs in RAID1 configuration. The raid controller doesn't care whether it is in a laptop, server, NAS or just a plain old PC.
 
Ok, thanks for the explanation.
So I am looking at specs to figure out which NAS I need.

-RAID 5 (preconfigured)
-hot swappable disks
-already enabled with some type of cloud for backups
-I think HDD is fine, I don't need SSD
-I will check but I think I have <1gB data right now and it might double in the lifetime of this device. So maybe I will 20gB space, hard to find any less.
-ports: USB3.0 x three? Ethernet (RJ45) four?
-I see "wired Gigabit Ethernet connectivity", sounds like something I need
-might want a station or two to be wireless so will look at built in capability for that.
-how about Intel Core i3 processor and 8GB of RAM? Need to decide on SATA speed needed.
-presumably any software will be on the individual workstations (OO, a browser, etc)
-get the type that can 'backup its own settings and configurations' in case these are lost.
-get one with "remote access capabilities"
-security: Internal - I think they all allow me (admin) to designate which users have access to which files. External - Firewall, encryptions, passwords all need to be looked into.
-something with a relatively easy interface for a neophyte

All I have for info on this is what I can read on the internet.
 
Let'sgoflying! said:
Ok, thanks for the explanation.

So I am looking at specs to figure out which NAS I need.



-RAID 5 (preconfigured)

-hot swappable disks

-already enabled with some type of cloud for backups

-I think HDD is fine, I don't need SSD

-I will check but I think I have <1gB data right now and it might double in the lifetime of this device. So maybe I will 20gB space, hard to find any less.

-ports: USB3.0 x three? Ethernet (RJ45) four?

-I see "wired Gigabit Ethernet connectivity", sounds like something I need

-might want a station or two to be wireless so will look at built in capability for that.

-how about Intel Core i3 processor and 8GB of RAM? Need to decide on SATA speed needed.

-presumably any software will be on the individual workstations (OO, a browser, etc)

-get the type that can 'backup its own settings and configurations' in case these are lost.

-get one with "remote access capabilities"

-security: Internal - I think they all allow me (admin) to designate which users have access to which files. External - Firewall, encryptions, passwords all need to be looked into.

-something with a relatively easy interface for a neophyte



All I have for info on this is what I can read on the internet.
Click to expand...


QNAP is a good brand. Here is an example
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16822107244
This one, you would need to buy the drives separately. Two SATA drives are good. Get at least 1TB (they are about $60 each).
Wireless is handled by your network router. The NAS should use Ethernet. The USB ports are for backup storage devices. It would be configured for RAID 1.
 
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Let'sgoflying! said:
Thanks.

Probably will look for a RAID 5 though.
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The only upside to RAID 5 is you give up less space for redundancy (1 drive for parity, 3 drive minimum configuration). RAID 1 will out perform RAID 5 and you don't really need the disk space.
 
Reading suggests RAID5 = greater protection in the event of disc failure + more likely to be hot-swappable; wrong?
 
Let'sgoflying! said:
Reading suggests RAID5 = greater protection in the event of disc failure + more likely to be hot-swappable; wrong?
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Nope. It protects against single drive failure, same as RAID 1. RAID 1+0 (RAID 10) will protect against some double drive failures and offer better performance, but requires at least four drives and you give up 50% of space for redundancy. You typically see that used for high performance databases.
 
Given how cheap storage is, there is little downside to going for a high level of redundancy, redundancy. This was different when 500gb was $20, 000.
 
John is right; RAID5 only offers me the opportunity to hotswap, not more safety in the event of disk failure.
Thanks everyone.
Will probably post some devices/configurations soon for advice too.
 
Reasonable to connect all computers, printers, etc to the NAS wirelessly or is cable better?
 
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