NA Setting up a server

Let'sgoflying!

Touchdown! Greaser!
Joined
Feb 23, 2005
Messages
20,322
Location
west Texas
Display Name

Display name:
Dave Taylor
What is the likelihood of your average computer user figuring out how to install and put into use, Server software (not sure yet if it is a new install or an upgrade from Windows Small Biz Server 2003 which is currently installed but aged) on an existing Raid5 (I think) system. (I need to look harder but so far have not found someone within 100mi who does this professionally).
There will be about 5 users, (new desktops, laptops); maybe 5 programs including QB multi-user (Premier Ed.?), internet access & wifi, use of Remote Desktop, an employee time-card device and software, a bunch of printers.

My current computer knowledge is limited, but I have time to research and have been known to tinker successfully in the past.

Maybe I could be coached from afar, once the hardware is all connected, then get Remote Desktop working and the tech could finish?

Thanks!
 
I have a windows network for the past 7 years.

The first time around, I had someone set it up for me. Whenever there were problems, I had to go back to him to sort out how to get things fixed.

The second time around, I did it myself. Took a while to get everything to work, but now if I need to make changes, I know all the bits and pieces.
The key was that I built the new system independently from the old one. Once everything worked, I had our software vendor move the databases etc. to the new domain and moved all the workstations over.

That being said, setting up 2008 Small business server was a breeze compared with server 2012. You probably want to get new hardware, for one the new stuff is a resource hog, also servers, hard-drives, power-supplies have a limited life expectancy. Keep the old server around to handle things like remote access, printing etc.

The other option if you have stable and redundant internet access is to move your software to 'the cloud' and have everyone access it via the web. If you are on an island (6/1mbit flaky internet access), then you'll have to stick with a island solution.
 
Last edited:
Are using Exchange (email) on the SBS server? SBS is no longer available. Microsoft is pushing these services to Office 365 (cloud). Also, SBS 2003 had a limit of one DC in the environment, so you need to use a migration tool to move AD to the new server. You will need new hardware. This is a migration, not an in place upgrade. Windows Server 2012 Essentials is the migration path, but it doesn't have SQL or Exchange.
 
I don't believe Dave is using Exchange, or any SQL-based tools.

It would be good for users to be able operate in Terminal Services / RDP sessions.
 
If it's just a matter of bringing up a Windows 2012 Server as a terminal server and loading some software, it should be fairly straight forward
 
If it's just a matter of bringing up a Windows 2012 Server as a terminal server and loading some software, it should be fairly straight forward

I am pretty sure you're right, but I don't know how to do it. If you had a reasonably-capable server (and Dave does, it is not ancient), how tough to do a fresh install of Server 2012 (it now has 2003, I think)?
 
I am pretty sure you're right, but I don't know how to do it. If you had a reasonably-capable server (and Dave does, it is not ancient), how tough to do a fresh install of Server 2012 (it now has 2003, I think)?

There is not an in place upgrade. He will need to wipe, rebuild and restore, if the hardware is capable and then you would not be able to use the migration tool to move the user accounts. He probably doesn't have much going on with the user accounts, though, if there is no email or SQL apps. You could probably rebuild AD pretty easy. You would need to recreate permissions. RDPing (Terminal Server) into a server and running apps locally on the server is a bad practice. Maybe get a new server and then rebuild the current as a dedicated Terminal Server (best practice)?
 
There is not an in place upgrade. He will need to wipe, rebuild and restore, if the hardware is capable and then you would not be able to use the migration tool to move the user accounts. He probably doesn't have much going on with the user accounts, though, if there is no email or SQL apps. You could probably rebuild AD pretty easy. You would need to recreate permissions. RDPing (Terminal Server) into a server and running apps locally on the server is a bad practice. Maybe get a new server and then rebuild the current as a dedicated Terminal Server (best practice)?


I don't think Dave is upgrading an existing server in his environment. I think he's received a donor server that was "existing" for someone else, and will replace an aging server in his office. Is that right, Dave? Do you have any of your business data on this new server yet?
 
What is the likelihood of your average computer user figuring out how to install and put into use, Server software (not sure yet if it is a new install or an upgrade from Windows Small Biz Server 2003 which is currently installed but aged) on an existing Raid5 (I think) system. (I need to look harder but so far have not found someone within 100mi who does this professionally).

Anything can be accomplished with enough time through both personal research and asking questions of trusted folks far away.

If there's an existing server and this is going to be a new server in the environment, that helps. Because you can migrate services the old machine does one at a time, instead of feeling like you have to get it all done in a single night after-hours, or a weekend, depending on business hours.

As someone else mentioned, Small Business Server is gone and if you were using the server for certain functions, those are now (much more expensive) separate licenses.

The first step is auditing what the existing server is doing and making a list. That might be simple, or it might be a really big list. Somewhat hard to describe how to do this, depending on how many layers of that onion there are.

You'll be trying to answer the question, what specific services are running on this server?

Some examples on a typical Windows server:

Active Directory (user authentication - often with one or more Windows Domains, not to be confused with DNS domains, which can be related, but not the same thing)
DNS
DHCP
Time Services
File Shares
Print Server

Other common seen optional things in small business environments:

Terminal Services / RDP
Exchange Server (E-mail)
IIS (often serving both as a web server and/or an FTP server)

Less commonly seen but sometimes:
Windows SQL Server

And as you've mentioned:
3rd party applications
(Like your multiuser QuickBooks)

And of course:
Central control software for anti-virus / malware detection and cleaning, as well as protection of the server itself...

Backup configuration (if using Windows Backup) or Backup Application and often acting as the storage/server for same, if using 3rd party software.

Etc.

If there's a way to reach this machine or these machines from off-site, a remote Windows pro can pretty easily assist with a good audit and tell you what's going to be easy and what will be difficult.

A full audit is really badly needed if you're going to attempt a complete machine rebuild or swap in a single night. If you have the luxury of moving services piecemeal, it's a little easier and can go slower.

There will be about 5 users, (new desktops, laptops); maybe 5 programs including QB multi-user (Premier Ed.?), internet access & wifi, use of Remote Desktop, an employee time-card device and software, a bunch of printers.

New laptops/desktops - those would take a bit of time to properly configure also. I don't think it's in the scope of the server part, so I'll just stop there.

QB multi-user: That software usually just requires one of the users to also run the "server" piece. It doesn't necessarily have to be on an actual "server", but it's probably a little easier. I can't remember if getting a copy to run as a service on a real server so others can connect to it, is a pain or not. If you did put it on a user's machine, think about where the backups will go, and automating them. Losing the company's fiscal data is usually very annoying and detrimental to the business.

Internet access: Are you saying the company internet access is by way of sharing an Internet connection through this one server? Usually that job is the job of the router. Same deal with WiFi. Where the server may be involved is as a DHCP server.

As someone mentioned, using the Primary Domain Controller handle Terminal Services / Remote Desktop, for end users, isn't a great idea.

Time card device and software: Make sure it's compatible with whatever newer version of Server before committing to moving it to the new machine.

Printers: Should work fine. You'll want to either touch all the existing PCs and configure them to connect to the new printer queues or write a login script or push them out via Group Policy if you like.



You'll also want to gather up the local admin account login and password info, and the Domain Administrator password info as the initial step of the audit. You'll be needing those. :)

Looking at the Services control panel/administrative tools item and getting a list of running services is a good place to start first on the old machine.

Definitely consider Office365 if the Internet connection is decent and you have Exchange running today.

Not sure what to say next. Need more info. :)
 
I don't think Dave is upgrading an existing server in his environment. I think he's received a donor server that was "existing" for someone else, and will replace an aging server in his office. Is that right, Dave? Do you have any of your business data on this new server yet?


If it is truly a greenfield deployment (no data to migrate) that greatly simplifies the task. Can Dave/Anyone answer the following?

1) what are the hardware specs (brand, model, memory, processor, hard drives)?
2) is there anything on the server that needs to be saved? (Data, applications, user accounts)
3) what are (if any) the remote access requirements? (Remote administration, Quickbooks, word processing, email, etc.)
4) if there is other data that will move to the server, where does it live now?

As mentioned above, a lot of help can be provided remotely. Some of the initial stuff needs to be done with direct access, though. If it is a greenfield deployment, it can probably be done by a novice (who is not afraid of technology) with some remote help.
 
PowerSpec® Server 600
Quad-Core Intel® Xeon® Processor E5310
(Currently) genuine Microsoft® Windows® Small Business Server 2003 Standard Edition R2 with SP2
System Board: Supermicro X7DVL-E
System Memory: 4GB composed of 2- 2048MB DDR2/667/ECC/FB DIMMS (Can be upgraded)
Hard Drive: 640GB RAID 5 (3 x 320GB SATA HDDs) 7200 RPM
DVD ±R/±RW Drive: 20x Dual Layer DVD±R/±RW Drive
Video: Integrated ATI ES1000
LAN: Intel® Dual Integrated 10/100/1000 Ethernet (82563)
Power Supply: 465 Watts

---

So it is a bad idea to have RDP served from the Domain Controller?
Alternatives?
We, at my office, run all real work in RDP sessions, 15 users, simply awesome. No video or audio streaming, but we're in business here. I think Dave could be well-served by that.
 
PowerSpec® Server 600
Quad-Core Intel® Xeon® Processor E5310
(Currently) genuine Microsoft® Windows® Small Business Server 2003 Standard Edition R2 with SP2
System Board: Supermicro X7DVL-E
System Memory: 4GB composed of 2- 2048MB DDR2/667/ECC/FB DIMMS (Can be upgraded)
Hard Drive: 640GB RAID 5 (3 x 320GB SATA HDDs) 7200 RPM
DVD ±R/±RW Drive: 20x Dual Layer DVD±R/±RW Drive
Video: Integrated ATI ES1000
LAN: Intel® Dual Integrated 10/100/1000 Ethernet (82563)
Power Supply: 465 Watts

---

So it is a bad idea to have RDP served from the Domain Controller?
Alternatives?
We, at my office, run all real work in RDP sessions, 15 users, simply awesome. No video or audio streaming, but we're in business here. I think Dave could be well-served by that.

The hardware scrapes in at the minimum for Windows 2012 (1.6 GHz proc and the minimum is 1.5 GHz). The proc came out in '06 and went end of life (EoL) Q1 of '09. In all likely hood this server is at least 7 years old (ancient in server years). Windows 2012 won't even install, if it detects you don't have the minimum requirements. Personally, if you want used, I would consider picking up something a little newer off of eBay, before you make all this effort. A seven year old server is very old. It will definitely need more RAM (I would add at least 4 Gb). The hard drive space is pretty low by today's standards, but if he doesn't have much data, it will probably work.

The are a couple of reasons you don't want users running RDP sessions on your DC. The first one is security. You need to give users local login rights on the server in order to do this. This is a really big security hole. They would then also be able to open browsers and download bad things directly to the server, quite possibly giving strange people in eastern Europe and China direct access to your server (wasn't that a cute kitten video they just clicked on?). The second and probably most important reason is stability. A user running apps directly on the server can cause the server to lock up or crash. Remember, unlike a workstation, you can't just reboot it anytime you like. A server plays an important role in any business, even small ones. You need to make sure it is reliable and secure.

There is a way to offer Terminal Services without additional hardware and that is to take advantage of server virtualization. Windows Server 2012 Standard (not Essentials) grants you 2 virtual server licenses, in addition to the host license. With adequate hardware (the above would not be adequate), you can create a Hyper-V (or VMWare) host on the underlying hardware and virtualize your server and then a separate server for the Terminal Server role. This would meet best practices. There is additional CAL licensing required to run more than 2 users for Terminal Services. If you are going to virtualize and run Terminal Services, I would consider 16 Gb of RAM the minimum and would probably recommend more.

It wasn't mentioned, but it is also important if you are running Terminal Services, that you secure access to the Terminal Server. This can be done with most firewalls and Internet routers today, using an SSL or IPSEC VPN. If Dave is going to configure remote access, he should definitely get some help, to make sure it is properly secured. Adequate backups are also going to be a consideration and Dave should probably also consult someone about his requirements around that, as well.
 
Last edited:
I'd say it depends.

Is this a professional server where you need it to work 24x7 and to have confidence in the security of the system? Do you need everything working on a very short time frame? Are you technically competent (not your average computer user)? Hire a professional if you don't know that you know what you're doing and if you aren't sure about what you don't know and need to learn.

If this is a hobby or personal server that can be down or that you can wipe and reinstall if something goes wrong, then do it yourself and learn.

I run a linux server at home and for a while had it connected to port 22 for my remote access. I monitor the logs every so often and have caught several (Chinese) IP addresses running brute force password hacks against it. Things like this will happen and you need to know that they will and be prepared for them.
 
I would not upgrade that server to 2012. I would get a new box to run 2012 and keep the old one as a second domain controller and to run things that are likely to hang up like print server or scanners. Compared to the license for the 2012 (and the CALs it requires), the cost for an additional box is low.
 
I concur that the hardware isn't going to work well for Server 2012.

Another thought is that you could get a cloud server through Amazon Web Services or Azure. You basically pay for the time the server is up, so if you shut it down when not in use, it saves you even more money, and you don't have to worry about the hardware. Since it's in the cloud, you can also find someone to set it up for you remotely (since it's technically remote, anyways). The time card and print server components become issues, but most time card software will run on a desktop OS, and for only 5 users, a physical print server will be much easier to manage.
 

Wow, that IS out in the middle of nowhere!!! (Though, I do love Fort Davis and San Solomon Spring in Balmorhea is close, too.)

If you have a decent internet connection, you might really consider a cloud server, and use a desktop for the time clock.
 
Wow, that IS out in the middle of nowhere!!! (Though, I do love Fort Davis and San Solomon Spring in Balmorhea is close, too.)

If you have a decent internet connection, you might really consider a cloud server, and use a desktop for the time clock.

Problem is, no (NO) resource for fail-over. Only one provider in town feeding DSL and cell data. Satellite really would not be good for this.
 
Have someone build and ship it. Plug it in and then someone can help remotely with any additional configuration and data transfer. In the work I do, we manage hundreds of sites remotely in a similar manner. We just have some "smart hands" on site and we do most of it remotely.

The free hardware is not worth much. Even a couple of thousand dollars will get you something that will perform much better and last many more years. If you build up that one up, you will be doing this all over again in 6 months to a year when it fails. There is a reason someone is donating it to you. If you are only looking to get 6 months out of it and then retire, it might be worth doing, but otherwise, you should do it right, especially since you are in a remote area with little means of support.
 
If you build up that one up, you will be doing this all over again in 6 months to a year when it fails.

Thanks very much for the advice, John.
Regarding the above; I am curious what tells you it might fail; is it the hardware? If so, are not these parts pretty easily procured and replaced?
 
I should clarify; this is a very small business with modest IT needs.
This came about because I want to be able store files in one place, and have access to them from several places in the office, and occasionally while traveling.
5 users max. Some internet activity. Quickbooks multi-user will be our main software. I don't know right now what our database size is but likely tiny compared to what the pro IT people here deal with. I can use a flashdrive to put it all on. We are using ~10 year old desktops without trouble, if that gives you an idea.
I am reading an old forum thread about Windows Home Server machines with preloaded server software; is something like that possible?
 
Thanks very much for the advice, John.

Regarding the above; I am curious what tells you it might fail; is it the hardware? If so, are not these parts pretty easily procured and replaced?


Experience, but I don't have a crystal ball. The moving parts fail first; hard drives and power supplies (somewhat easy to find, but used hard drives also fail at a high rate and you won't find a like replacement in new). I have seen a fair number of motherboards fail (not easy to find) and even a processor on occasion. You also have the performance and bloat factor. You are at the edge of the performance envelope. It might run OK today, but as applications update and OS's get patched, it will get harder to live with. You might get lucky, but how long would you expect a seven year old server to last (they run 24x7). If you have the skills and your time is cheap, maybe it is worth it. If you are running a business on it, it usually isn't though. Typically, you would expect 3 to 5 years out of a new server. Consider that if you pay to have it installed and configured, the labor will cost more than the hardware. I don't have a dog in the race, but if it were me, I would look for newer hardware. As an example, look for a ML350 G6 (circa 2013). Here is one for $899 http://m.ebay.com/itm/HP-ProLiant-M...16GB-RAM-4x600GB-HDD-/161807695887?nav=SEARCH
It has 16 Gb of RAM, 2.4 GHz proc, 4x600 GB Hard drives and will probably last a few years.
 
I should clarify; this is a very small business with modest IT needs.
This came about because I want to be able store files in one place, and have access to them from several places in the office, and occasionally while traveling.
5 users max. Some internet activity. Quickbooks multi-user will be our main software. I don't know right now what our database size is but likely tiny compared to what the pro IT people here deal with. I can use a flashdrive to put it all on. We are using ~10 year old desktops without trouble, if that gives you an idea.
I am reading an old forum thread about Windows Home Server machines with preloaded server software; is something like that possible?

You may be able to do all of those things by setting up a microsoft workgroup without even using a MS server.
 
I should clarify; this is a very small business with modest IT needs.

This came about because I want to be able store files in one place, and have access to them from several places in the office, and occasionally while traveling.

5 users max. Some internet activity. Quickbooks multi-user will be our main software. I don't know right now what our database size is but likely tiny compared to what the pro IT people here deal with. I can use a flashdrive to put it all on. We are using ~10 year old desktops without trouble, if that gives you an idea.

I am reading an old forum thread about Windows Home Server machines with preloaded server software; is something like that possible?


If all you want to do is share files, you can get a cheap NAS device. This thread started out in a different place. For remote access, consider syncing to a cloud based solution.
 
+1 on a cloud solution. Save your money on the hardware and maintenance on it and upgrade your internet connection. Typical Citrix sessions will work very well on 128kbs, so it wouldn't need much for an internet bump.
 
+1 on a cloud solution. Save your money on the hardware and maintenance on it and upgrade your internet connection. Typical Citrix sessions will work very well on 128kbs, so it wouldn't need much for an internet bump.

weilke says no cloud with my internet capabilities.
??
 
weilke says no cloud with my internet capabilities.
??

5mbs down is definitely workable, we operate many small remote offices fine off of T1's (1.5mbs) over citrix connections.

the .5mbs up is what will need to be upgraded to support a cloud solution. Internet tends to be cheap these days, but if you had 5 up/down should be enough to support your needs.
 
I looked at my isp (ATT) and they do not list up speeds, only down. 3/6/12/18 down
Not sure if I can improve on up.

PS this generously donated server has one year on the hobbs meter, even if has a few years on it, do we really think it is about to start shedding parts?

Let's reconsider also that this is a sleepy, slow business. The server will be napping most of the time.

Thanks for the input.
 
I looked at my isp (ATT) and they do not list up speeds, only down. 3/6/12/18 down
Not sure if I can improve on up.

PS this generously donated server has one year on the hobbs meter, even if has a few years on it, do we really think it is about to start shedding parts?

Let's reconsider also that this is a sleepy, slow business. The server will be napping most of the time.

Thanks for the input.

Dave, you can build that server up, if you want. Windows Server 2012 would probably not be the right choice as the server performance is on the bottom edge of the envelope and, while the donation was certainly generous, the server hardware doesn't have any real value. It may or may not fail in the near future (think of it like an airplane; do you put a G500 panel into a Cherokee 140, even a clean one?). The operating system licensing and the labor (even your own) to install and configure it is going to incur effort and cost.

You could go with a simple NAS device (setup takes minutes), which would allow file sharing within the office. It would not help with other things, like centralized anti-virus, centralized user account management, stable application platform (QuickBooks), centralized security, workstation and user policies, etc., like a server would, though. These devices can be had for about $300 (cheaper than buying the server OS) and are pretty painless to deploy.

Cloud based solutions are great for small companies like yours, because there is no infrastructure to maintain or build, but Spike questioned the reliability of your internet provider and you would probably need to improve on the upload speed, though it might be adequate for some stuff, like email or moving small word processing files. The truth is, none of us out here on the Internet knows much about your business, business processes or the value of your data.

There will probably be an incremental increase in the upload speeds for each of those ATT options listed, but you may need to call to find out. Even if you can double it to 1 Mb, it will probably get it done. To avoid having to build infrastructure (a server) you may want to look at moving QuickBooks to the cloud (this would allow for remote access), as well as possibly using Office 365. Office 365 has some unique features for remote workers, such as corporate instant messaging (IM), web conferencing and desktop sharing, as well as email (connect from anywhere) and shared calendaring (you can use your own domain name). It will let you store documents up there as well, so you can access them from anywhere, with a browser. There is a cost for that (anywhere from $5/mo/user to $12/mo/user, depending on which plan you get (the more expensive one also includes an installable version of Microsoft Office for you PCs). With 10 year old PC's you may still run into trouble, though, as they will probably not run a current enough version of Office to use Office 365. If you are just looking for file storage, there are a number of cloud based offerings, such as Dropbox and others.
 
Thank you all so much, especially for those who spent considerable time providing illuminating answers.
As always, I will let you know how it goes.
Dave
 
+1 on a cloud solution. Save your money on the hardware and maintenance on it and upgrade your internet connection. Typical Citrix sessions will work very well on 128kbs, so it wouldn't need much for an internet bump.

He said he has 5 employees. 5x 128kbit is more than what his 500kbit connectivity can support.
 
He said he has 5 employees. 5x 128kbit is more than what his 500kbit connectivity can support.

Citrix is fine on 20 kbit (plus printing), but Citrix really isn't on the table and just muddies the waters. The newest version of Terminal Server is pretty close to that as well. I don't really see him going down that road, though. There are other options.
 
Citrix is fine on 20 kbit (plus printing), but Citrix really isn't on the table and just muddies the waters. The newest version of Terminal Server is pretty close to that as well. I don't really see him going down that road, though. There are other options.

The numbers keep getting smaller ;) That 20kbit Citrix is going to be very pixelated and compressed with every window you move leaving a ghost for a couple of seconds. btdtgtts

I have a satellite office hanging off a 1mbit/8mbit cable modem. We have a provider there 1 day/month which was this monday. 9 o clock in the morning, the utility managed to create a short outage that fried the cable companies distribution and it wasn't fixed until the close of business. With the on-site server/workstation architecture that we used to have, we could have been taking care of patients all day. By being dependent on a off-site server (in this case the main office, but it would have been the same for a cloud solution), we were dead in the water. Cloud solutions are great if you sit in a city office building with FIOS and a T1 for backup, if you are in the boonies at the end of a long pipe, not so much.
 
The numbers keep getting smaller ;) That 20kbit Citrix is going to be very pixelated and compressed with every window you move leaving a ghost for a couple of seconds. btdtgtts

I have a satellite office hanging off a 1mbit/8mbit cable modem. We have a provider there 1 day/month which was this monday. 9 o clock in the morning, the utility managed to create a short outage that fried the cable companies distribution and it wasn't fixed until the close of business. With the on-site server/workstation architecture that we used to have, we could have been taking care of patients all day. By being dependent on a off-site server (in this case the main office, but it would have been the same for a cloud solution), we were dead in the water. Cloud solutions are great if you sit in a city office building with FIOS and a T1 for backup, if you are in the boonies at the end of a long pipe, not so much.


I understand your concern. Your problem most likely had to do with latency rather than bandwidth. Citrix, out of the box, requires sub 100 ms latency. There are some tweets to make it more tolerant, but that is the rule of thumb. Satellite generally has much higher latency than that. All that said, I don't think Citrix or even Terminal Services is the right solution.
 
Back
Top