NA Home AC issue

Interesting issues you're having, because I also am having low airflow upstairs. That said, it does get down to temperature. There's some small leak that they found and we think that the evaporator has been freezing up.

The real point is that the Cessna 410 is a pretty hard airplane to find, since they never made it.
 
Ted DuPuis said:
Interesting issues you're having, because I also am having low airflow upstairs. That said, it does get down to temperature. There's some small leak that they found and we think that the evaporator has been freezing up.

The real point is that the Cessna 410 is a pretty hard airplane to find, since they never made it.
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I don't know much about planes
 
SixPapaCharlie said:
These guys were unique. Remember that character Sean Penn played in "Fast times at Ridgemont High"?
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Unfortunately they are not unique. They represent the labor pool small businesses have to hire from.
 
SixPapaCharlie said:
I don't know much about planes
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Don't worry, most people here don't. This is "Pilots of America" not "Boat Owners of America." I go here for boat knowledge and the BOoA for plane questions. :D

I should reopen my thread. I've been browsing CraigsList looking at ~34' express cruisers to replace our 24' cuddy cabin boat that is great. That way, we can have something with two engines and 3x the fuel burn to go the same speed, just like we do with airplanes.
 
Wait a minute, in his neck of the woods Underwear and Drawers are the same thing!!
Ted DuPuis said:
Don't worry, most people here don't. This is "Pilots of America" not "Boat Owners of America." I go here for boat knowledge and the BOoA for plane questions. :D

I should reopen my thread. I've been browsing CraigsList looking at ~34' express cruisers to replace our 24' cuddy cabin boat that is great. That way, we can have something with two engines and 3x the fuel burn to go the same speed, just like we do with airplanes.
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And just think how many dogs you could carry!
 
Matthew said:
And just think how many dogs you could carry!
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Zero. The lake doesn't exactly get me very far.

Also, one of the advantages of flying dogs is not having to get them out to walk them during the trip. Dogs go into the crates at the origin, dogs get out at the destination. At 25 MPH in the boat (and about 1 MPG) the 414 is both faster and far more efficient.
 
Matthew said:
On those kind of "zoned" systems with dampers - are they controlled by more than one t-stat? Otherwise, what's the point of having one? Or are they controlled by the heat/cool setting so that in summer cold air gets routed through one duct but in the winter hot air does not?
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Multiple stats usually, yes. Can be a huge PITA or really save a house that has say, a huge vaulted ceiling in a main room up to a loft. Make the loft a zone and shove all the cooling there when it needs it, for example. Same thing with a house that has a cold basement room or area.

Downsides, more maintenance, more to break, airflow can be too restricted by them for the rated airflow of the cooling or heating source - especially if it's not a newer system with a variable blower, and being ripped off by clueless HVAC techs who've never seen one.

We thought about zoning the house just upstairs and downstairs but decided we didn't need to with a really good blower and some proper air returns added to the air-return-less basement. It's pretty good.

We could use one more return in the basement but not worth ripping out the entire ceiling to install it. One room is always a little colder. A stat with a fancy multi day and multi time timer works fine, we just set it to being the typically occupied rooms to the best temp and let the rest of the house do whatever it will.

Wasn't worth the expense or the lack of simplicity in our place when we did the HVAC upgrade.
 
My last house had 1st floor master, and a separate, smaller heat pump for upstairs. I liked that! Then I added two programmable thermostats, individual days down and weekdays/weekends upstairs.

Current home is a ranch, with a smaller 2nd heat pump for the finished part of the basement. This house came with programmable thermostats, and the one in the main part actually talks when I press the buttons. I like it, too. It helpfully gave me the local number if a repairman last week, and he replaced the dead capacitor on the main unit, then checked everything else on both of them (no other faults).
 
I'm curious which warranty company and which service they sent.

I had good luck with mine (although it was heat, not a/c) and we don't live that far apart.
 
AHS. Which I have had good. Experience with. And the company was AC rescue. Not using them again
 
We had the warranty company come out again yesterday (A.B. May - pretty sure they're local and they do both the warranty and the service). They confirmed that there's a leak in the evaporator coil and then also the expansion valve is intermittently not working properly. So, they're trying to sell us on a whole new system at a "significant discount." I'll see what the pricing is to see if it makes sense and how they define "significant." I'm leaning towards just making them fix what they say is broken, but the system is 11 years old.
 
Bryan,

Sounds like its time to sell the mansion you live in and buy a small, 3-bedroom ranch home with a simpler system.

Since it is in TX, I will offer $100 for the house. :)

David

Edited to add:

My reasoning here is that the AC obviously has to be fixed, the home will have to be treated for Cirrus residue and apparently cloud residue from your last video. You have severely devalued your home Sir. :)

David
 
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Ted DuPuis said:
We had the warranty company come out again yesterday (A.B. May - pretty sure they're local and they do both the warranty and the service). They confirmed that there's a leak in the evaporator coil and then also the expansion valve is intermittently not working properly. So, they're trying to sell us on a whole new system at a "significant discount." I'll see what the pricing is to see if it makes sense and how they define "significant." I'm leaning towards just making them fix what they say is broken, but the system is 11 years old.
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Make 'em fix it, Ted. You should have several years of good life in the systems yet.

Query: How costly is electricity where you are (cost/kWh)?
 
SCCutler said:
Make 'em fix it, Ted. You should have several years of good life in the systems yet.

Query: How costly is electricity where you are (cost/kWh)?
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That's my thought, it just depends on what the total options are.

I forget the specific electricity cost here. I do think our electric bills are higher than they should be, but our house here is also larger and we have more incandescent bulbs than we did in Ohio.
 
Ted DuPuis said:
We had the warranty company come out again yesterday (A.B. May - pretty sure they're local and they do both the warranty and the service). They confirmed that there's a leak in the evaporator coil and then also the expansion valve is intermittently not working properly. So, they're trying to sell us on a whole new system at a "significant discount." I'll see what the pricing is to see if it makes sense and how they define "significant." I'm leaning towards just making them fix what they say is broken, but the system is 11 years old.
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Wouldn't the repair be covered by the home warranty (- whatever deductible) ?

I had a service contract for my private ACs at one point. Twice I had them come out to fix something and rather than fixing things, they came back with a written up quote for a system replacement. Not that this isn't annoying enough, but it was accompanied by a hard-sell that it would be illegal for them to service the system after December 31st. Had them fix the problem and cancelled the service contracts.

I have developed a very dim view of HVAC companies.
 
weilke said:
Wouldn't the repair be covered by the home warranty (- whatever deductible) ?

I had a service contract for my private ACs at one point. Twice I had them come out to fix something and rather than fixing things, they came back with a written up quote for a system replacement. Not that this isn't annoying enough, but it was accompanied by a hard-sell that it would be illegal for them to service the system after December 31st. Had them fix the problem and cancelled the service contracts.

I have developed a very dim view of HVAC companies.
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It's pretty obvious that they just want to sell the new system. Yes, the repair work is covered by the home warranty.

They want to do their song and dance, I'll see what they offer. No harm there. Then I can tell them to just fix the problem that existed in the first place when they try to sell me a $10k system and say that's "Discounted."
 
Ted DuPuis said:
It's pretty obvious that they just want to sell the new system. Yes, the repair work is covered by the home warranty.

They want to do their song and dance, I'll see what they offer. No harm there. Then I can tell them to just fix the problem that existed in the first place when they try to sell me a $10k system and say that's "Discounted."
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A couple of years later, I did end up replacing the system. I found a surprising range in the cost between different quotes and ended up with a system considerably cheaper than what the folks with the service contract wanted to sell me.

I did see a reduced power bill, but more importantly the new system provided far superior level of comfort. Between upsizing from a 1.5 to 2ton unit and the variable speed fan, it really improved the air distribution between all the upstairs bedrooms.

How long do you anticipate to remain in that home ?
 
weilke said:
A couple of years later, I did end up replacing the system. I found a surprising range in the cost between different quotes and ended up with a system considerably cheaper than what the folks with the service contract wanted to sell me.

I did see a reduced power bill, but more importantly the new system provided far superior level of comfort. Between upsizing from a 1.5 to 2ton unit and the variable speed fan, it really improved the air distribution between all the upstairs bedrooms.

How long do you anticipate to remain in that home ?
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We have a 4-ton unit, which is about the right size now but I believe will be undersized when we finish the basement and start expecting it to control there. Maybe not, as the basement is always comfortable now, but they suggested it might be too small. The house is plenty comfortable when the system is working and we don't have any comfort complaints, but I would like a variable speed fan.

Generally we're planning to be here at least another 4 years (and hopefully much longer), but you never know what life will throw at you. We're hoping to be here long enough that we'd get most of the benefit out of a new/upgraded system if we went that route.
 
I only asked about power pricing to factor in power cost delta. In SoCal, it might make a lot of sense with rates that start at $0.15/kWh, and go up - fast - from there. For me, at $0.067/kWh fixed, not so much.

Another thing - you might have a variable (or multi-speed) fan in your system now; a lot of units over the years have been installed with such options never wired in, because of installer laziness or indifference.
 
SCCutler said:
I only asked about power pricing to factor in power cost delta. In SoCal, it might make a lot of sense with rates that start at $0.15/kWh, and go up - fast - from there. For me, at $0.067/kWh fixed, not so much.

Another thing - you might have a variable (or multi-speed) fan in your system now; a lot of units over the years have been installed with such options never wired in, because of installer laziness or indifference.
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I generally figure the math doesn't make a super efficient system worth the extra money out here. If we do go with a new system, it will be more efficient than what's in there now, and there will be some minor cost savings from that.

Central air has generally been reliable for me (in 10 years of home ownership, this will be the first time I've spent money on it), but having to replace it is a real pain. Almost makes me long for the days as a kid of just having window units.
 
Ted DuPuis said:
The house is plenty comfortable when the system is working and we don't have any comfort complaints, but I would like a variable speed fan.
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I believe you can retrofit the variable speed control to many units. Not sure how they are controlled.

Generally we're planning to be here at least another 4 years (and hopefully much longer), but you never know what life will throw at you. We're hoping to be here long enough that we'd get most of the benefit out of a new/upgraded system if we went that route.
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Depends a bit on how efficient your current system is. To go from 8 to 16 is going to make a bigger dent than going from 12 to 14.

My new 2ton had a copeland 2-stage compressor. Unless it was really hot or cold, it often ran on the lower stage. I believe that also influences how much water the system extracts.
 
We have a 13 seer now with a single stage compressor. We'll see what they say tomorrow.
 
So the guy comes out and says "It wasn't charged right, I will get it fixed"
House is still really hot.

I bought an infrared thermometer today.
All of the registers from the god unit are reading an output of between 48 and 52 degrees.

All of the registers from the bad unit are reading 66 to 71 degrees.
I went into the attic and shot the thermometer down the exhaust pipe in both units.
The good one read 41 degrees, the bad one read 66 degrees. (This is a half inch pvc pipe coming straight off the fan box in the attic that just wastes cold air. I am sure it has a valid purpose as all of my houses have had these)

So what other than a lack of refrigerant would cause one of the boxes to not be blowing cold?
I am going to replace the damper motor but there is obviously a cooling issue as well.


Edit: For the record, both of my dog's azzes are 77 degrees.
 
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I had a home warranty tech out to service one of my air conditioners today.

He said something about a capacitor.

I have no capacity to understand that, but the air in my house is nice and cold.

Good $75 for me. Although, that is about 20 gal of 100ll. hmmm...
 
Capacitor is like a battery.
It is a $20 part that attached to your outside fan.
If it dies, the motor will just make a humming noise and not spin.

I am doing ok. 6 out of 9 rooms are cool. but the three that are hot are damn hot.
 
I just pulled the damper motor off and turned the upstairs tstat on and off and it appears to be working.
This is a temp issue now. 3 rooms are 86 degrees.
 
$20 part and $55 for the dude that knew which part was needed and how to install it? I'm okay with that. :)
 
flhrci said:
:eek:
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I've never had a infrared thermometer before. I know the temp of the beer I am drinking, my car engine, my nuts, and just about everything else in a 30 foot radius. This thing is fun.
 
PaulS said:
Back to basics, is the compressor on and running?
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Yes.

And I think it is an outside issue.
I just went outside and sprayed water on the unit outside.
I came back in and all the outputs were in the low 40s
That lasted about 10 min and they are back up in the mid 60s. I am led to believe that thing is not exchanging heat properly.
 
SixPapaCharlie said:
Yes.

And I think it is an outside issue.
I just went outside and sprayed water on the unit outside.
I came back in and all the outputs were in the low 40s
That lasted about 10 min and they are back up in the mid 60s. I am led to believe that thing is not exchanging heat properly.
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Actually if you temporarily increased the efficiency of the outdoor unit via evaporation and the air temp output inside dropped 20F, it's likely you just have an undersized outdoor unit or one that isn't efficient enough for the heat load presented. It's moving heat fine, just not enough of it. You temporarily made the outdoor unit more efficient.

By the way, don't spray city water on it often when it's running. The evaporation will deposit minerals on the fins as well as accelerate corrosion, and all sorts of other bad things if done too often (snake oil salespeople sell AC unit "misters" and it increases efficiency for a couple of years and destroys the cooling fins rapidly).

Some... Very few... Very high efficiency AC units pump and sling or spray their own condensate onto the fins, but condensate doesn't have minerals, chlorine, etc.

Back to your problem, sub-cooling as cooling with water like that is called (as is directly cooling the "hot" line before it enters the cooling fins) messes with the differential pressure between the high and low side and MAYBE your test indicates that there's a problem in the unit with whatever controls metering of the coolant, but that's unlikely.

Most often if you're artificially increasing the cooling capability of the outdoor unit and it blows that much colder inside, the heat transfer mechanism (the refrigerant going round and round indoors to outdoors) is working fine. It's just that the unit can't cool it enough outside.

What SEER rating is the unit and has anyone shown you any heat load numbers for what it's expected to cool?

If it's undersized there's really only one free solution... Set it to start much sooner so it's exchanging heat outdoors long before the peak heat of the day.

Otherwise it's have someone do a heat load analysis and see if the unit can actually move that much heat.

It also sounds like you got your damper thing solved or at least bypassed. Moving lots of air on the indoor side is rarely a problem and if it's capable of dropping temp 20F more with your water evap test, and the indoor coil didn't freeze into a block of ice, you've got plenty of airflow there.

Your system gets a little weird in that you have two units and you need to make sure they're not doing something silly like fighting each other, but it doesn't sound like that's a problem you're having.

It sounds like you just have a unit sized too small that can't keep up with the cooling needs of the space it's responsible for. Maybe it has a problem or maybe it doesn't but you've proven it can move a lot more heat when you raise its efficiency temporarily.
 
But this is a new issue.
Historically, the house (been here 5 years) has cooled fine w/ these units.
 
I straightened the fins about 2 months ago but going to clean and comb them again and see if I get any relief.
There were a good amount of grass clippings in the back side of the unit this morning.
 
Had 3 units on the house in San Antonio. The largest - a package unit - for the first floor was an electricity suck whenever it ran. At a out 9 years old it developed a pinhole leak or two in the coil. Carrier couldn't or wouldn't supply parts in a reasonable timeframe (12-18 weeks was their quote) and replacement was problematic as it required a crane to get it in and out of there because it was between the pool and the pool pumps. Would have been $15k for replacement. AHS was worse than useless - didn't troubleshoot, just pumped more freon in.

Finally found an AC guy who was able to identify the leak spots and reseal. Carrier can bite my ***. The AC shops in the DC area push replacement at 15 years. Parts.

When I replaced an 18 year old unit at Cincy, our electric and gas bills were cut in half and it was a lot quieter. I sprung for the high efficiency units and it paid off in about 3 years.
 
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