NA Home AC issue

SixPapaCharlie

SixPapaCharlie

May the force be with you
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I have 2 units (2 outdoor condensers + 2 fanbox in the attic) and 3 thermostats
All rooms down with the exception of a single room up.

Single room up has its own thermostat. I believe it just opens and closes a damper on a unit that is shared with the main house

All the bedrooms share the other unit and a single thermostat.

So that's the setup.


I go upstairs and it is 89 degrees. Air is trickling out.
I call home warranty company that sends the ****tiest company they have contracted with and they tell me I am low on Freon. I go "Thats great and all but Freon has nothing to do with the lack of pressure" We argue for an hour to the point where I tell them "Look add freon and come back in 2 hours when I still have the same problem"

Then it gets weird. Stoner 1 goes into the attic and jiggles some wires connected to a little round hockey puck looking deal in a duct and suddenly the fan starts blowing like a (insert hooker analogy here)

Everything is good.


Welp now the strangest thing is happening.
When I change the temp on the thermostat, there is about a 5 min delay before it kicks on or off.
Sometimes It doesn't turn off. It will say 75 and I will set the AC to 78 which should certainly turn it off and it just keeps right on trucking. It used to be max 10 second delay.

All 3 thermostats are having this issue.
twice since, I have had the issue where the fans are on but air on the upstairs room is just seeping out. Not enough pressure to hold the filter in the intake.

All the blue rooms are on 1 A/C system w/ a single thermostat
All the magenta rooms are on the other A/C system with a single thermostat for the main rooms and another thermostat for the upstairs room.

ac.jpg


So should I just burn the place down?
I think I need to hire a A/C company that is not picked by the warranty people.
I feel like they always send entry level people to fix stuff.
 
How hot does it get in Texas? Maybe suffer through a couple more months and you are home free until spring. On the other hand, you should probably get a second opinion, but AC stuff is expensive and you need the home warranty company to cover it, so it is really just for ammunition. Offer to pay for the diagnosis. If you know someone in the business, that is best, because in my experience, the vast majority are crooks. Yes, I know that is harsh, but it is based on years of personal experience.
 
You are experiencing the joys of a home warranty.
 
Its in the low 100s here but at least it is a wet heat.
I looked and I cannot afford to replace the systems w/o a loan.

These units are ~12 year old builder models so they are old and taxed heavily.
I was quoted 30k to replace them both.

The warranty guys just piecemeal the parts together.
But for example... I paid a $100 trip fee for a blown capacitor.
I now know I can buy that thing for $30 and replace it in a few min.

I am wondering about that hockey puck thing now.
 
Not too surprised the t-stat seemed like there was a multi-minute delay before turning off. Probably the t-stat DID turn off the system, there might be a time-delay relay that took a while. They are meant to wait a few minutes to turn off after they've been turned on. Short-version - if you turn ON the system, it has to run for a few minutes before it's going to be able to turn itself back off. Might have the same effect when turning on, too. You just might not have noticed in the past. If the stoner "jiggled" something other than himself, might be something simple like a loose connection.

Best bet is probably as recommended above - get someone that knows what he's doing to diagnose. Haggle with the ins. co. once you know what's going on.
 
Pictures are worth a thousand words. Sometimes it's just a loose wire or a loose connector. "Worked hard and taxed heavily" is BS. The AC will last a long time, most parts that go are cheap and easy to replace, don't get suckered.
 
It can take up to 10 minutes to kick in the compressor, if it was turned off or the t-stat thinks it was tuned off.
 
ok I will go take a pic of the hockey puck and wires he jiggled.
 
These are the wires he jiggled that seemed to cause it to start flowing


ac2.jpg
 
I'd second the "AC systems don't really wear out" sentiment.

Oh sure a compressor can blow, but generally even the oldest system or weirdest system will keep working for decades, it's mostly that low quality techs don't know a system and find it simpler to rip the thing out and sell you a new one.

Your problem sounds like electronics for sure. Bad sensor, bad timer, whatever...

What you need is a tech that knows your specific brand of system, and has been around longer than a couple of years.

Oh and don't get me started on home warranty companies. Total rip off artists.

Oh and "low on freon"... Anyone says that without a set of gauges hooked up who can't show me the numbers deserves a kick square in the nuts.
 
It's a "Patent Pending". I've heard about those things...

It looks like it's an actuator of some sort that is programmed to open/close a flap that allows airflow.

But I could be wrong. Does it look like there is something inside the duct that this thing controls?
 
They hooked up guages but then said "We use xyz grade freon which is more expensive and your warranty company only covers up to $10 per pound" so I spent $400 on freon for a system that may or may not have been low but the temp of the air coming out was not the issue, it was the CFM
 
Matthew said:
It's a "Patent Pending". I've heard about those things...

It looks like it's an actuator of some sort that is programmed to open/close a flap that allows airflow. Some systems are programmable to allow air to flow to different ductwork under certain conditions.
Click to expand...

makes sense. This is the unit that goes to the main house w/ 1 Tstat and the media room upstairs w/ its own tstat.
Maybe both Tstats turn the unit on and the top one also opens this damper to allow air to flow to the upstairs room.
 
SixPapaCharlie said:
Thats great and all but Freon has nothing to do with the lack of pressure
Click to expand...

Yes it does. Your indoor coil can freeze up if you are low on refrigerant. Air does not flow through ice easily. Get a professional like myself to look at it. The professionals don't work for warranty companies.
 
Freon is R-22, it's replacement is R-410 (or something like that). The real stuff, R-22, isn't made anymore but is still inside older units. They need to charge up using whatever your system uses. R-22 is getting more expensive, but I'm not sure what the going rate per pound is these days.
 
RV10flyer said:
Yes it does. Your indoor coil can freeze up if you are low on refrigerant. Air does not flow through ice easily. Get a professional like myself to look at it. The professionals don't work for warranty companies.
Click to expand...

Do you by chance live in the north Dallas area?
 
You have a zone system. It is the cheaper way to install one big system and ductwork for different areas instead of totally independent smaller systems. No zoning= greater efficiency, redundancy and less headache.
 
Matthew said:
Freon is R-22, it's replacement is R-410 (or something like that). The real stuff, R-22, isn't made anymore but is still inside older units. They need to charge up using whatever your system uses. R-22 is getting more expensive, but I'm not sure what the going rate per pound is these days.
Click to expand...

I can read between the lines.
You think the Cessna 410 is better and cheaper than the SR22
 
R-22 is $45/lb installed here in Ky.
 
SixPapaCharlie said:
These are the wires he jiggled that seemed to cause it to start flowing


View attachment 46211
Click to expand...
Looks like a damper actuator to me, tighten the wire nuts, make sure it is working, then forget about it. If it happens again, jiggle the wires, could be a broken wire or the actuator is failing.


Just reread your first post, check the wire nut connections, unscrew them and look for a broken wire/bad connection, then reinstall the nuts and make sure they are tight.
 
12-15 years is a good lifespan on 2000' and later, as most parts are from Mexico and China. Some last longer if you install them correctly, don't use zone controls, clean the coils annually, replace flux capacitors when needed and keep a clean air filter.
 
Mine is a york so I assume it was built in New York.
 
You say the single room shares with the downstairs, is cool air coming from the downstairs registers while the upstairs is trickling?
 
You may have had a couple of issues(low on refrigerant and a loose zone damper wire connection). Often, I find two or three problems on service calls. If you have to add more than 3-4 lbs of refrigerant(sounds like you did), they need to find the leak. Leaks cause locked up compressors, as you also lose mineral oil with refrigerant. Low charges also overheat compressors. Good luck.

I like your funny videos! You may need to make one for your "Zone System". No, I can't do service calls in my RV-10.
 
The problem is that damper, loose wire or the actuator is failing. You can buy a new actuator motor for $59, or replace the whole damper. I still think it is a bad connection. Do you know how to use a volt meter?
 
RV10flyer said:
You may have had a couple of issues(low on refrigerant and a loose zone damper wire connection). Often, I find two or three problems on service calls. If you have to add more than 3-4 lbs of refrigerant(sounds like you did), they need to find the leak. Leaks cause locked up compressors, as you also lose mineral oil with refrigerant. Low charges also overheat compressors. Good luck.

I like your funny videos! You may need to make one for your "Zone System". No, I can't do service calls in my RV-10.
Click to expand...

Dang, I was going to offer to meat you half way depending on the useful load of your plane.
 
PaulS said:
The problem is that damper, loose wire or the actuator is failing. You can buy a new actuator motor for $59, or replace the whole damper. I still think it is a bad connection. Do you know how to use a volt meter?
Click to expand...

somewhat
I know that if I put it on the car battery, I need to see > 12 volts if the motor is running to show that the alternator is charging.
 
Bryan, that's a damper motor. It wasn't opening when the system was running, that's why the airflow was choked off. If the wiring connection was loose, now it's fixed. It should work OK from now on, but at least you know where to look if it happens again.

How many pounds of R-22 did he add to the system? Adding refrigerant before checking out the entire system is the mark of an incompetent repairman, but I think you sensed that already.
 
SixPapaCharlie said:
somewhat
I know that if I put it on the car battery, I need to see > 12 volts if the motor is running to show that the alternator is charging.
Click to expand...

So that motor should be 24 vac, set the meter for AC and touch each wire with a probe, you should see 24 volts when that thermostat is on and the tab near the motor next to the "close" sticker should be moved in the direction opposite of the arrow (ie open). Don't hurt yourself.

You could have a freon issue, too little could freeze up the coil, but then you wouldn't get cold air downstairs either if that was the issue, eventually there wouldn't be enough freon to cool anything if you have a leak. I say the damper is not opening, loose wire most likely cause, bad actuator a possibility. Getting late here, I'm about to turn into a pumpkin, good luck.
 
When was the last time your R22 got topped off? These systems should be sealed and not lose any refrigerant. Have a competent HVAC tech (who doesn't do replacement installs) come out and check 6 months from now. If you are again low, have him perform a leak search (most companies now use an electronic sniffer rather than dye) Most of the time it is the inside coil that is leaking and a replacement is considerably less than 30k. But it is patching up an old system. Tomorrow something else can fail (compressor, expansion valve, outside coil, fan motor). Also, have him measure the run capacitors. If they are below 80% of what it says on the case replace them. Cheap preventive maintenance. Also, in a 10 year old home, if you haven't done so, get someone to clean the ducts. Pretty scary what they suck out of those.

The damper actuator should be easy enough to trouble shoot and if necessary replace.
 
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PaulS said:
Looks like a damper actuator to me, tighten the wire nuts, make sure it is working, then forget about it. If it happens again, jiggle the wires, could be a broken wire or the actuator is failing.
Click to expand...

It sure does. We have some of those; 3 units, 5 zones. They do fail, but sounds like it wasn't working properly in this case.
 
You need to forget this AC business and put some ice in your pants. Buy a plane first. Women and children come second.
 
3393RP said:
Bryan, that's a damper motor. It wasn't opening when the system was running, that's why the airflow was choked off. If the wiring connection was loose, now it's fixed. It should work OK from now on, but at least you know where to look if it happens again.
Click to expand...

On those kind of "zoned" systems with dampers - are they controlled by more than one t-stat? Otherwise, what's the point of having one? Or are they controlled by the heat/cool setting so that in summer cold air gets routed through one duct but in the winter hot air does not?
 
Why do Bryan's threads always contain a reference to nuts? :D
 
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SixPapaCharlie said:
Dang, I was going to offer to meat you ...
Click to expand...

Hey hey! This is a family channel! Easy on the meat meets!

On a side note, while Stoner #1 was distracting him by jiggling wires in the attic, Stoner #2 was rummaging thru his wife's underwear drawers!
 
These guys were unique. Remember that character Sean Penn played in "Fast times at Ridgemont High"?

I got agitated after he jiggled the wires and it started blowing.

Prior, he had opened the intake in the ceiling and the filter fell out. Under normal suction, That filter is in there pretty good.
I dragged him back over and showed him now how powerful the suction was and like I told him it was not a temp issue but a flow issue.

He goes "I wasn't trying to call you a liar or nuthin"
Stoner 2 replaced the plastic refrigerant caps with metal ones.

I think that is all they are trained to to. Sell the R22 and swap caps.
 
Matthew said:
Freon is R-22, it's replacement is R-410 (or something like that). The real stuff, R-22, isn't made anymore but is still inside older units. They need to charge up using whatever your system uses. R-22 is getting more expensive, but I'm not sure what the going rate per pound is these days.
Click to expand...

SixPapaCharlie said:
I can read between the lines.
You think the Cessna 410 is better and cheaper than the SR22
Click to expand...

You DO NOT want to mix the two refrigerants....unless you want your pipes filled with a "fluid" the consistency of cottage cheese.
 
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