[NA] Health Insurance. US vs. Elsewhere

This really isn't about "a lot of Americans" - the division between "we want it" and "we don't" isn't that great. It's about politics and money.

Let's work it through more critical, shall we?

Who benefits?
The big health-care systems that can reduce overhead and squeeze pay to people as they get bigger?
The government contractors and insurance companies that will handle/manage the payment systems for a fee (like is done with CMS now)?
The insurance companies that can offload the less profitable patients and sell supplemental insurance?
The politicians that can claim that they "now covered everyone" or "brought the big evil corporations to heel"?
Pharma that depends on FDA/NIH to approve treatments?
Those with the ability to lobby and politicize things?

How about the losers?
The patients, who will be shunted to NPs and get far less doctor time?
The patients who will be handed script after script instead of getting a full and good diagnosis?
Pharma that has seen the likes of Martin Skreli and jacked up med prices?
The local doctor that's already squeezed by reimbursements (Medicare being particularly low)?
What about the docs that won't take medicare now as the reimbursement is too low?
Patients, who will see longer wait times?
Docs and local pharmacies that will be squeezed on price and availability of drugs as production is further crimped?
Folks who might benefit from new technologies?

Rule 1: government doesn't have the capability to handle payments itself. That will be outsourced.
Rule 2: this will not be "universal health care" as in "everyone can see anyone" - it will be government single payer, where a Fed entity will provide payment, but not service.
Rule 3: the deck chairs will be rearranged, but corporations and politicians will still benefit. The little guy won't.

I've worked for/with/in plenty of government agencies myself. There are plenty of ways to "beat the rules", and the rules rarely benefit the little guy. (and to be clear, 'deregulation' of stuff also causes similar disruptions, for example the deregulation of airlines)

This is why I say the entire system needs to be burned to the ground and built up anew. I am realistic enough to know that it's not going to happen.

I'll point to the Covid vaccine right now. A lot of folks are not getting vaccinated (partly a trust issue), and there are doses going to waste. Yet the FDA and NIH are not generally authorizing a third booster shot that manufacturers say are needed (Pfizer being the leading group) and other countries are already being dispensed (noted that they have approved it - only Friday - for a limited group of people). There's evidence that the original shots lose potency over time, and Delta (among others) is much more virulent. The FDA is chartered to provide treatments that are "safe and effective" - the vaccines have proved safe. So in a pandemic, why not lean more to the "safe" side even if the "effective" side is shown to be the case although not as deeply as the "safe side". It's not for money - the Feds have already bought the vaccines (and are sending it to other countries). There must be some other reason for the reluctance. But it's government and politics so we may never know.
You make some good points, but it's worth remembering that there's more than one model for universal healthcare, and they basically all work (with different tradeoffs) better than the ACA. The U.S. wouldn't be forced to follow the Canadian, UK, German, or any other model rigidly; you'd have the option to design one that works best for your country's needs.

Rule 1: government doesn't have the capability to handle payments itself. That will be outsourced.
It's possible, but not inevitable. Canada is huge at outsourcing, probably even more than the U.S. (we even outsource ATC), but the provincial governments still handle billing themselves, because it's not that tricky. It's the healthcare providers, not the patients, who bill, so the numbers — while big — aren't overwhelming, even in a province of 15 million people. I have no reason to think that American governments are less competent/capable than Canadian ones.

Rule 2: this will not be "universal health care" as in "everyone can see anyone" - it will be government single payer, where a Fed entity will provide payment, but not service.
Not all universal healthcare is single-payer. Some systems have the government run health facilities directly (like NHS-run facilities in the UK), while others don't (like Canada); they can both work, and the U.S. would likely prefer a system with private delivery. The main benefit of a standardised system (whether single payer like in Canada, or multiple-payer with fixed rates like in Germany) is that it massively cuts administrative overhead.

As for everyone seeing anyone, neither of our countries have that. In Ontario, some GPs are wide open, while others have long waiting lists. It's up to them to decide if/when to accept new patients. Walk-in clinics and hospitals are open to all, of course. Another restriction in Ontario (which you might not want to copy in the U.S.) is that you mostly aren't allowed to go directly to a specialist; you need to see your family physician first and get a referral (which isn't all that hard, but still, an extra step).

Rule 3: the deck chairs will be rearranged, but corporations and politicians will still benefit. The little guy won't.
Given how much the industry is spending lobbying against universal healthcare in the States right now, they must think the status quo is working pretty well for them from a profit PoV (as do the politicians they finance). Every other rich country in the world switched to universal healthcare decades ago, but the private health insurance industry in the U.S. has been successful at preventing it.

Would some kind of universal healthcare scheme do a better job at reining in the private companies and the politicians in their pockets? It's impossible to know (it would depend on the system and how it's implemented), but it could hardly be worse than it is now, either before or after the introduction of the ACA.
 
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If a cost of a any medical procedure is reduced 93% and the procedure is still readily available to patients with the same quality, I hope ruin continues through the industry.

Your wish has come true ... I've been in the field 38 years ... I get reimbursed less, but have a steady stream of high risk patients. Again, the docs are now employees ... they're not going to see 50 a day and do surgeries before morning office as employees - they get a straight salary. Most work a 3 day week now seeing 15-20 per day with an additional surgery only day with 2 cases scheduled. Hospitalists are doing the rest, and the joke in our field is that most of those were the 'C" students in med school

Quality is job zero at most of the other facilities ... a lot of my time is spent correcting "mishaps" from other facilities with several requiring immediate life saving surgery. I'm an outpatient facility, so theoretically should never be seeing this type of patient I get them as the physicians know I've been in the field about as long as Moses. A lot are cancers, but they aren't actually immediate surgery type cases ... welcome to your new "Earl Scheib" medicine format ...
 
FTFY: I guess you missed the part that the 93% reduction was in the reimbursement to the provider not the cost of the procedure. It was an effective way to put smaller providers out of business or forced them to join a hospital group. The ACA simply is the foundation to a single payer system that digitizes all medical records, expands the eligibility for free insurance, and provides a small group of income earners hugely subsidized premium/deductible costs. All at the cost to everyone not covered under the ACA to the tune of 500% to 2500+% in premium increases since 2014. Mine alone went up over 400% in 3 years and required me to completely re-due my retirement financials. There was a reason ACA was passed sight unseen with multiple 11th hour deals being made. Not to mention medical privacy was thrown out the door in the name of ACA.

No, I didn’t miss that at all. US private insurance rates, in part, are driven by what they pay providers. I can’t speak to your individual retirement situation, but for most us under 65 retired folks the age caps and preexisting condition limitations of the ACA were beneficial.
 
Which is what the US system does for most consumers. 'Griping about health insurance' is our national pastime.
Very true. Still, it would be great to close that last gap from "most" (just over 90%) to all, like other rich countries have. You don't stop running the marathon at mile 24 because you've made it 90% of the way, just like the U.S. military didn't stop at Iwo Jima because they were most of the way to Japan.
 
Very true. Still, it would be great to close that last gap from "most" (just over 90%) to all, like other rich countries have. You don't stop running the marathon at mile 24 because you've made it 90% of the way, just like the U.S. military didn't stop at Iwo Jima because they were most of the way to Japan.

- I happen to visit my brother in germany this week. He has a number of health problems, the care he gets for them is comically bad. Most of that badness is created by the government controlled (yet universal) health insurance regime.
- Later this week, I will meet up with a friend who suffered permanent neurological damage at the hands of the UK NHS. Back when it happened, he would tell me what was going on, and from 2000 miles away, I told him 'you need X and then you need to see someone who specializes in Y' Not until permanent damage was done, his primary care gatekeeper was able to authorize 'X' and a visit to a consultant specializing in Y. Once he was able to see Y, he was plugged in for emergency surgery in days and the problem was addressed. Oh, and he worked for the NHS as a career employee.
- I have relatives in canada. One of them, very smart and educated man asked me about an issue a few years ago. I told him 'you need X, and you need to see a surgeon specializing in Y who does 3 of these a week.' Of course, his provincial health program wouldn't allow him to go out of the province to get X and Y, kept him with a local generalist. As this was an issue that fell into my field, I actually spoke to the generalist who told me that 'this is not how we do this here'. Well, he proceded to do the case and fock it up.
- I have family in spain. Dont get me started.

As an administrator in the US healthcare system, I am exasperated with some of the shenanigans from the large insurance carriers and the CMS buerocracy that comes up with nonsensical hoops every year. As a consumer of healthcare services, I am exasperated with the often confusing paperwork generated in the the system of health insurers and billing agencies. From dealing with both our system and the ones noted above either first-hand or through family, I know that there is exactly one place where I want to be if I ever get seriously ill. The patient under the crummiest medicaid HMO in my state has better access to specialist care than anyone had (has) in the examples above. Sure, it can be exasperating for the poor lady in the PCPs office to deal with per-certs and the like, but at the end of the day, if you need to see 'Y' and need 'X' test, you can get it done.
90/10 isn't bad.
 
The whisper in DC at the time was that the ACA was designed to fail so it could/would be replaced by government single payer.
The ACA was modeled after the MA Universal Healthcare program, it was almost an exact copy. What was ignored was that none of the promised outcomes came true in MA, ER utilization was not reduced and IIRC it actually went up, it didn't reduce rates because more people had coverage as promised
 
Whatever horror stories you want to relate about other lands, I promise there is worse in America. Way worse.
Are you paraphrasing "The grass is always greener..."? ;)
 
The ACA was modeled after the MA Universal Healthcare program, it was almost an exact copy. What was ignored was that none of the promised outcomes came true in MA, ER utilization was not reduced and IIRC it actually went up, it didn't reduce rates because more people had coverage as promised


Having health insurance increases utilization. This is most pronounced if the insured has reason to believe that the coverage is only temporary. At times this drives medical decision making towards a more expensive but faster option. The way 0-care was set up with it's year to year structure, it is guaranteed that low income subscribers will max out the services they can obtain within a given premium year.
Genius!
 
I didn’t miss that at all. US private insurance rates, in part, are driven by what they pay providers.
Well I think you missed something. Don’t know where you get your information but that is not how it works under ACA. If you retire before 65 and get your medical insurance on the open market the ACA has driven the prices through the roof regardless the provider pay. When I retired at 52 I got a catastrophic plan ($220/mo) but when ACA came around that went out the window due to the age restriction on it (30). "Keep your doctor and keep your plan" remember that? Next was a full benefit plan with a high deductible (appr. $395/mo). The next years increase was up to appr. $595/mo then appr. $895/mo. Last I heard that same plan had risen to $2500+/mo and was dropped from the exchange due to cost. That same plan at the 3rd year ($895) with the ACA silver subsidy at the $20k income level went for less than $100/mo. And at the same time, as mentioned previously, certain provider reimbursements cratered causing 2 of my doctors to move under a hospital group to get a higher rate/digital records and caused several doctor clients to retire. So how does that figure into your rate structure idea again?
 
Whatever horror stories you want to relate about other lands, I promise there is worse in America. Way worse.
Where? This is rich. You live in an academic cocoon.
I have few complaints about my medical care. Every system has its problems, but I will stick with the private solution. I’ve made career choices and compromises that ensure that my medical needs are met. Other people make different choices.
 
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I remember that. It was called the "tort reform" bill and was going to be the greatest thing since....whatever. I told my wife it wasn't going to make any difference in health care costs in TX. Unfortunately I was right. Supposedly it reduced the cost of medical malpractice insurance and the claims paid by those insurers. As long as health care is a for profit business we will never get medical costs under control in this country. You can take that to the bank!
I think government regulations add more to the costs than profit.
 
Whatever horror stories you want to relate about other lands, I promise there is worse in America. Way worse.

I have observed that the enthusiasm for socialized medicine is inversely correlated to meaningful experience in those systems.

I hear Cuba and Moldova have awesome healthcare. They do really well on all those rankings.
 
some of our ‘worse outcomes’ is because we’re willing to try where other countries give up. Take infant mortality for example. The US is more likely to count a birth as a “live birth” compared to other countries.

I think you will have a hard time finding more than a handful of instances where that kind of thing is the explanation. For the *vast* majority of the difference, it ends up being inequity in access to health care due to economic drivers. So someone making $31K (the median household income) in France gets a cough, goes to a doctor and gets their cancer caught when it can still be treated, but in the US someone making $43K (median for the US) waits until they are very ill or in a lot of pain before going in because they fear the medical bills. Then they die because it's too late to treat the cancer. Obesity, which is a part of health care the US basically ignores, is also part of the difference since the US is a fatter country than most.
 
As someone who's been the decider or a huge influencer in several of those situations, I can tell you that it is a bear of a decision, and you'll never know if you made the right one. Living wills and "no heroic measures" leave a huge grey area.

Maryland, for all it's warts, has a very good system called the MOLST (Maryland Orders for Life Sustaining Treatment). It a form that is quite granular on the treatments the patient authorizes and what they refuse. The form creates a durable set of orders that applies to treatment by EMS, nursing home and hospital.
 
Whatever horror stories you want to relate about other lands, I promise there is worse in America. Way worse.
Or at least, just as bad in different ways. Anecdotal evidence is important, because it can point to things missed by the stats, but it's still important to look at the stats as well. For example, take life expectancy at birth for some of the countries we've been discussing:
  • Australia, France, Spain, Sweden: 83
  • Canada: 82
  • Germany, UK: 81
  • US: 79 (tied with Cuba and Albania)
Not a huge difference, but you have to ask why, if the U.S. healthcare system is better, life expectancy is shorter instead of longer. For U.S. males, specifically, it's even worse, 76 in the U.S. vs 79 in Germany and 80 or higher in the others mentioned above.

As I wrote earlier, the difference is more stark for maternal mortality per 100,000 live births:
  • Spain, Sweden: 4
  • Australia: 6
  • Germany: 7
  • France: 8
  • Canada: 10
  • United States: 19
Canada doesn't come out of this well, either, but there are at least some questions to answer about the U.S. healthcare system when a mother is nearly 5x as likely to die after giving birth than she would be in Spain or Sweden. It's hard to find any health indicator where the U.S. isn't near the bottom among rich countries. That doesn't mean that the U.S. isn't producing great health outcomes for some people, but something's going wrong across the whole population (that applies to us in Canada, too, in a few areas).
 
some of our ‘worse outcomes’ is because we’re willing to try where other countries give up. Take infant mortality for example. The US is more likely to count a birth as a “live birth” compared to other countries. So while our infant mortality may loom higher, it’s really that we’re willing to try (waste money?) as compare to other healthcare systems.
That's easy enough to crosscheck by looking at the stillbirth rate per 1,000 births for the countries we've been discussing:
  • Australia, Spain: 2.2
  • Sweden: 2.4
  • Germany: 2.7
  • Canada: 2.8
  • U.K., U.S.: 3.0
  • France: 4.3
So if you were comparing the U.S. with only France, there might be a case to be made that the U.S. is willing to try when France gives up (though it may be due to other causes); however, it's hard to make that argument for any of the others we're discussing, because they do as well as or better than the U.S. in ensuring live births.
 
Our 'bad' numbers on early childhood mortality are driven by a number of factors, few of them related to the medical system per se:
- a high number of obese pregnant women with complications related to that comorbidity.
- the distribution of natality along the socio-economic strata with those having the least resources having the most births. While that is true around the world, in other developed nations there are more robust transfer payments to those at the lower end of the spectrum reducing the negative health effects of poverty.
- the way how assisted reproduction in the US is practiced as a cash business. This results in a increased number of high risk pregnancies, multiple gestations and premature birth. Premature birth is one of the big drivers of early childhood mortality. While we can keep many 24 weekers alive, but even if they go home after months in the NICU, they are not out of the woods and remain susceptible to things like RSV, apnea and prematurity related neurologic complications.

If I could snap my fingers and make every pregnant woman to have a reasonable weight, be knowledgeable, housed in a stable environment and if I could force every reproductive endocrinologist to adhere to their own professional guidelines , we would see early childhood mortality plummet. But they don't have any plans to make me king, so that'll have to wait.
 
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Our 'bad' numbers on early childhood mortality are driven by a number of factors, few of them related to the medical system per se:
- a high number of obese pregnant women with complications related to that comorbidity.
- the distribution of natality along the socio-economic strata with those having the least resources having the most births. While that is true around the world, in other developed nations there are more robust transfer payments to those at the lower end of the spectrum reducing the negative health effects of poverty.
- the way how assisted reproduction in the US is practiced as a cash business. This results in a increased number of high risk pregnancies, multiple gestations and premature birth. Premature birth is one of the big drivers of early childhood mortality. While we can keep many 24 weekers alive, but even if they go home after months in the NICU, they are not out of the woods and remain susceptible to things like RSV, apnea and prematurity related neurologic complications.

If I could snap my fingers and make every pregnant woman to have a reasonable weight, be knowledgeable, housed in a stable environment and if I could force every reproductive endocrinologist to adhere to their own professional guidelines , we would see early childhood mortality plummet. But they don't have any plans to make me king, so that'll have to wait.
That's probably all true, but isn't it likely that the driving factor is severely-limited pre-/post-natal care for mothers relying on Medicaid?
 
That's probably all true, but isn't it likely that the driving factor is severely-limited pre-/post-natal care for mothers relying on Medicaid?

Expecting mothers who have medicaid have good access to prenatal services. It may be by seing a NP at the community health center rather than the OB at the marble lobbied birthing machine, but they still get their ultrasounds and blood tests as all of the general hospitals accept all the medicaid plans.
The bigger issue are those who have such a weak grip on their life situation that they are unable to even seek prenatal care. It still happens that we have women show up in third trimester who thought they had 'gas'.
 
Expecting mothers who have medicaid have good access to prenatal services. It may be by seing a NP at the community health center rather than the OB at the marble lobbied birthing machine, but they still get their ultrasounds and blood tests as all of the general hospitals accept all the medicaid plans.
The bigger issue are those who have such a weak grip on their life situation that they are unable to even seek prenatal care. It still happens that we have women show up in third trimester who thought they had 'gas'.
It seems unlikely that the proportion of women in that situation is higher than in other rich countries (Canada, for example, receives more immigrants and refugees as a percentage of population than the U.S. does, and we have severe health issues among our indigenous communities). According to this report, Medicaid has identified that a lack of post-natal care is a major factor in the high maternal mortality rate for the U.S., and -- thankfully -- they're working to fix that. There's no reason that a woman in a rich country like the U.S. (whatever her socio-economic status) should be 5x more likely to die after giving birth than a similar woman in another rich country, and I think it's easily fixable, even without going to full universal healthcare. Medicaid just has to get better at doing what they do (which may require more funding).

https://www.medicaid.gov/medicaid/q...aternal-infant-health-care-quality/index.html
 
One thing to keep in mind through all this discussion: if you’re on this forum you have assets and means (tough to fly - and especially own - an aircraft without those unless you’re a commercial pilot - but even then…). Not true for all Americans - including, I bet, for many people on here’s kids and grandkids. Easy for us to forget that on occasion.

I’m not advocating free care for everyone. I’m saying if access to education, fire protection, police protection, or other “public goods” was as means-dependent as healthcare here, it’d be a pretty backwards country.

“I’ve got mine” is not a core principle of many moral systems;)
 
One thing to keep in mind through all this discussion: if you’re on this forum you have assets and means (tough to fly - and especially own - an aircraft without those unless you’re a commercial pilot - but even then…). Not true for all Americans - including, I bet, for many people on here’s kids and grandkids. Easy for us to forget that on occasion.

I’m not advocating free care for everyone. I’m saying if access to education, fire protection, police protection, or other “public goods” was as means-dependent as healthcare here, it’d be a pretty backwards country.

“I’ve got mine” is not a core principle of many moral systems;)
My daughter has just moved from Canada to the U.S. for grad school. As a Ph.D. student she is, of course, fully-funded by the university and privileged to have a gold-plated health-insurance plan tossed in, so her experience won't be typical, but it will be educational for both of us watching what happens over the next 5 years.

In other areas, the first two points go to the U.S. -- she's loving her $30/month phone plan with unlimited data (which would cost more than double that in Canada), and the free public transit in Chapel Hill (I don't know of any municipality with free public transit in Canada).

Third point to Canada — the heat and humidity in North Carolina are a whole different level (we're used to occasional 35++ Celsius with 99% humidity, but not every ... single ... day).
 
My daughter has just moved from Canada to the U.S. for grad school. As a Ph.D. student she is, of course, fully-funded by the university and privileged to have a gold-plated health-insurance plan tossed in, so her experience won't be typical, but it will be educational for both of us watching what happens over the next 5 years.

Tell her to enjoy it and take advantage of it while she can. I had a bit of a rude awakening to what the average healthcare plan is like when I finished. My current one from my employer is okay/average for the country, but much worse than what I had as a grad student.
 
Tell her to enjoy it and take advantage of it while she can. I had a bit of a rude awakening to what the average healthcare plan is like when I finished. My current one from my employer is okay/average for the country, but much worse than what I had as a grad student.
She plans to cheat and move back to Canada when she's done, but you have my sympathies — I've heard that a lot from Americans leaving university.
 
My daughter has just moved from Canada to the U.S. for grad school. As a Ph.D. student she is, of course, fully-funded by the university and privileged to have a gold-plated health-insurance plan tossed in, so her experience won't be typical, but it will be educational for both of us watching what happens over the next 5 years.

In other areas, the first two points go to the U.S. -- she's loving her $30/month phone plan with unlimited data (which would cost more than double that in Canada), and the free public transit in Chapel Hill (I don't know of any municipality with free public transit in Canada).

Third point to Canada — the heat and humidity in North Carolina are a whole different level (we're used to occasional 35++ Celsius with 99% humidity, but not every ... single ... day).
So, what is wrong with the schools in Canada?
 
How about "I've earned mine"?
Honest answer? I suppose it depends on how it’s said. It can either be that one is grateful for the good fortune to have had the opportunity to earn it - or it can be said in a more entitled way.

I earned mine by serving my country for 24 years and I know darn well I was able to do that because I had parents who raised me well, weren’t abusive, didn’t give me everything I wanted but gave me what I needed, and kept me honest. I’ve had a blessed life and don’t take that for granted - and don’t at all assume everyone else has had the same good fortune or that their circumstances are entirely under their control.

Hope that answers
 
Well I think you missed something. Don’t know where you get your information but that is not how it works under ACA. If you retire before 65 and get your medical insurance on the open market the ACA has driven the prices through the roof regardless the provider pay. When I retired at 52 I got a catastrophic plan ($220/mo) but when ACA came around that went out the window due to the age restriction on it (30). "Keep your doctor and keep your plan" remember that? Next was a full benefit plan with a high deductible (appr. $395/mo). The next years increase was up to appr. $595/mo then appr. $895/mo. Last I heard that same plan had risen to $2500+/mo and was dropped from the exchange due to cost. That same plan at the 3rd year ($895) with the ACA silver subsidy at the $20k income level went for less than $100/mo. And at the same time, as mentioned previously, certain provider reimbursements cratered causing 2 of my doctors to move under a hospital group to get a higher rate/digital records and caused several doctor clients to retire. So how does that figure into your rate structure idea again?
Well I think you missed something. Don’t know where you get your information but that is not how it works under ACA. If you retire before 65 and get your medical insurance on the open market the ACA has driven the prices through the roof regardless the provider pay. When I retired at 52 I got a catastrophic plan ($220/mo) but when ACA came around that went out the window due to the age restriction on it (30). "Keep your doctor and keep your plan" remember that? Next was a full benefit plan with a high deductible (appr. $395/mo). The next years increase was up to appr. $595/mo then appr. $895/mo. Last I heard that same plan had risen to $2500+/mo and was dropped from the exchange due to cost. That same plan at the 3rd year ($895) with the ACA silver subsidy at the $20k income level went for less than $100/mo. And at the same time, as mentioned previously, certain provider reimbursements cratered causing 2 of my doctors to move under a hospital group to get a higher rate/digital records and caused several doctor clients to retire. So how does that figure into your rate structure idea again?

I could have retired at 51. Retiring that early is a bridge too long to Medicare for about everyone who is funding there own health insurance. It was that way before the ACA and after. Sounds like you real issue is not understanding the risk before you bailed out.

The big reason they won’t pass Medicare for all is too many 50 somethings that would leave the workforce.
 
The big reason they won’t pass Medicare for all is too many 50 somethings that would leave the workforce.

I'm not sure if that would happen though - the UK has free healthcare and a very similar employment rate.
 
Retiring that early is a bridge too long to Medicare for about everyone who is funding there own health insurance.
Ha. Maybe in your case. Everybody understands the risk leaving so early. And plenty of people did it anyways, just didnt expect such a cluster flop from ACA. Most of us simply had to go to plan B with some additional tax implications. Even those who did wait till 65 got hit by ACA as they did not expect their medicare supplement costs to increase by 200%-300% either, or worse their longterm doctors quit accepting medicare due to ACA rules. Whether you didnt retire at 51 was not a medical insurance issue. Trust me. I havent looked back yet ACA BS or not. ;)
 
Ha. Maybe in your case. Everybody understands the risk leaving so early. And plenty of people did it anyways, just didnt expect such a cluster flop from ACA. Most of us simply had to go to plan B with some additional tax implications. Even those who did wait till 65 got hit by ACA as they did not expect their medicare supplement costs to increase by 200%-300% either, or worse their longterm doctors quit accepting medicare due to ACA rules. Whether you didnt retire at 51 was not a medical insurance issue. Trust me. I havent looked back yet ACA BS or not. ;)

You may have had a different insurance disaster if the ACA didn't pass. I retired at 55, the difference is I recognized I couldn’t plan for everything and don’t whine about society helping people far less fortunate - some of which will work to 70 because they have to.
 
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It seems unlikely that the proportion of women in that situation is higher than in other rich countries (Canada, for example, receives more immigrants and refugees as a percentage of population than the U.S. does, and we have severe health issues among our indigenous communities). According to this report, Medicaid has identified that a lack of post-natal care is a major factor in the high maternal mortality rate for the U.S., and -- thankfully -- they're working to fix that. There's no reason that a woman in a rich country like the U.S. (whatever her socio-economic status) should be 5x more likely to die after giving birth than a similar woman in another rich country, and I think it's easily fixable, even without going to full universal healthcare. Medicaid just has to get better at doing what they do (which may require more funding).

https://www.medicaid.gov/medicaid/q...aternal-infant-health-care-quality/index.html

Very interesting report obviously authored by someone who has never set foot into the maternity ward of a safety net hospital.
For two years of my life, I was a provider in the well child clinic of such a safety net hospital. Our clientele was 100% medicaid, S-CHP or uninsured, but the service was available for free to all of them (because the government hospital was too incompetent to even bill if they tried to). We had the financial folks on site to get the uninsured kids signed up for medicaid or S-CHP and the documentation requirements to do so were minimal. 1/2 the parents didn't show up for the appointments and the financial counselors had a very low take up rate on the uninsured kids.
From my front line experience, it is not for a lack of services or a lack of insurance that some kids don't get the recommended well child services. It is from a lack of parents who either care enough or have enough structure in their life to take care of them. That's a cultural issue, not one the 'medical system' can address.
I didn't want to add it, but as you mentioned 'immigrants and refugees'. In my experience, they were not the issue. My caribbean and african parents showed up for every appointment, often mom&dad, and if both of them worked at their second or third job, they arranged for an auntie to bring the baby to the clinic.
 
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My caribbean and african parents showed up for every appointment, often mom&dad, and if both of them worked at their second or third job, they arranged for an auntie to bring the baby to the clinic.
I mentioned immigrants and refugees from the language/cultural perspective (it's harder for non-English/French-speaking newcomers get health information in a form they can understand, just as it would be harder for me to get and understand local healthcare information if I were living in Turkey or Indonesia). That shortcoming in our healthcare and public health systems in Canada became painfully obvious during the pandemic.

To your other point, I believe you that in your work you encounter people unable or unwilling to engage with the healthcare system, but I also believe that you would encounter them just as much if you were working in a similar setting in Vancouver, London, or Amsterdam. Poverty, abuse, homelessness, addiction, and untreated mental-health issues are major problems in all rich countries, so you have to factor them into everyone's health indicators, not just those for the U.S.
 
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You may have had a different insurance disaster if the ACA didn't pass.
Doubtful. Based on the previous 20 years of medical premium costs, etc. I would be sitting in a better place now than with the current ACA process.
I retired at 55,
From a medical insurance cost perspective, what changed between 51 and 55 that allowed you to pull the trigger at 55?
don’t whine about society helping people far less fortunate - some of which will work to 70 because they have to.
I see. Create a new system that helps one less fortunate group by making a larger separate group less fortunate in order to pay for it causing a number of this new group to work to 70 when they planned not to. Got it. ;)
 
The big reason they won’t pass Medicare for all is too many 50 somethings that would leave the workforce.
I'm not sure if that would happen though - the UK has free healthcare and a very similar employment rate.
That's a scary thought — the only reason Americans work past age 50 is fear of losing their health coverage?!? That would imply that people in other rich countries have better work ethics than Americans, which a) isn't true, and b) goes against everything Americans believe about themselves (compared to Europeans). :)
 
Third point to Canada — the heat and humidity in North Carolina are a whole different level (we're used to occasional 35++ Celsius with 99% humidity, but not every ... single ... day).

One doesn't see -30F/-34C in NC either. NC sees a little snow, more in the Appalachians, but very little outside of that. I've lived up north, got to shovel way too much snow, and spent a couple of one week work trips in Montreal. No thanks. I don't have to shovel the humidity. ;)
 
That's a scary thought — the only reason Americans work past age 50 is fear of losing their health coverage?!? That would imply that people in other rich countries have better work ethics than Americans, which a) isn't true, and b) goes against everything Americans believe about themselves (compared to Europeans). :)

It's also FAR from the truth because most 50 year old Americans don't have enough savings to retire on even if every dime of healthcare costs were covered.
 
I see. Create a new system that helps one less fortunate group by making a larger separate group less fortunate in order to pay for it causing a number of this new group to work to 70 when they planned not to. Got it. ;)

The federal government could have bought each and every one of the people in that group a BCBS R-number health plan through their existing contract and it would have been cheaper than that boondoggle.

The 25 year old young adults were never the problem. They all had access to cheap health insurance through employer, college or for $99/month on ehealthinsurance.com. They were uninsured because they were ignorant, not because insurance wasn't available to them.
 
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The federal government could have bought each and every one of the people in that group a BCBS R-number health plan through their existing contract and it would have been cheaper than that boondoggle.

The 25 year old young adults were never the problem. They all had access to cheap health insurance through employer, college or for $99/month on health insurance.com. They were uninsured because they were ignorant, not because insurance wasn't available to them.

Your opinion is not factual and I don’t believe you will find many parents who are not very happy with carrying their adult children on their health plan to age 25.
 
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