[NA]AWD vs FrontWD[NA]

Let'sgoflying!

Let'sgoflying!

Touchdown! Greaser!
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Dave Taylor
I am looking at Toyota Highlanders.
They seem to offer these two options, not sure what is best.
99% of the time it will be on highway.
Every winter we have a couple ice storms that require excellent traction in order to attend to emergencies (driver is a paramedic). The local DOT has limited equipment to sand/salt the roads and we are expected to just wait til the weather improves and it melts.
The current 2003 4-Runner is horrible on low friction surfaces and has been since purchased, and even with aggressive treads, new tires.

So, is AWD or FrontWD going to be best? (we are told this model has no 4WD option)
 
Agree with Nate. AWD.

All that said, an "aggressive tread" may not be the best tire choice for ice - yes, for snow, maybe not for ice. I depends on the tire. Tire Rack does include some ice rating info in their tire listings.
 
Have AWD on my Model 3. So far, So fine. Even when DFW froze over
 
Studded tires. But as infrequently as you get iced over roads tire socks may be a better choice.
 
Full time AWD is great on icy roads. Had it on a Subaru Outback for years, now on a Ford Edge.

There really isn’t a big disadvantage that I’ve seen other than if you have to replace one tire you’re supposed to do all 4 as to not wear out the differentials. Not sure how critical that is but we’ve always done it and kept the tires rotated.
 
It is worth mentioning that all wheel drive is not the same in all applications. Some designs are more like a front wheel drive with rear assist. Others are true mechanical all wheel drive, which I find to be much more predictable in inclement weather.


denverpilot said:
Blizzaks if you can afford em. Amazing but boy they’re proud of them.
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Blizzaks are great. Blizzaks on an all wheel drive car that makes good power are even better. Unfortunately, that has the side effect of encouraging aggressive driving in conditions where everyone else wants to use extra caution. Ha.

These days, I wouldn’t be without my AWD or Blizzaks.
 
cowman said:
There really isn’t a big disadvantage that I’ve seen other than if you have to replace one tire you’re supposed to do all 4 as to not wear out the differentials. Not sure how critical that is but we’ve always done it and kept the tires rotated.
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It’s a good idea to keep the tires the same but not for the reason everyone always claims. It has been my experience that handling can be very quirky if you have one odd tire in the bunch, which to me is the bigger concern than diff wear.
 
I think you need this AWD...


Immediately thought of @Ted after watching this. And yes we’d load the dogs in ours too. LOL
 
cowman said:
There really isn’t a big disadvantage that I’ve seen other than if you have to replace one tire you’re supposed to do all 4 as to not wear out the differentials. Not sure how critical that is but we’ve always done it and kept the tires rotated.
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That restriction is not universal. True for the Subaru system with locking differrentials, n/a for the Mercedes 4-matic that uses the brakes to maintain even traction. On the MB you can replace a single tire and it doesnt care.

I had AWD cars on snow tires when I lived in ND. Yes, there are no mountains, so who cares ? With ice, even a parking deck ramp can become an obstacle without it. There is a penalty in fuel efficiency and paradoxically it seems to use more tires. Also, I had to replace an axle and a driveshaft somewhere along the 250k I put on the Subaru, I figure that could happen on a FWD too.
 
mondtster said:
Blizzaks are great. Blizzaks on an all wheel drive car that makes good power are even better. Unfortunately, that has the side effect of encouraging aggressive driving in conditions where everyone else wants to use extra caution. Ha.
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My old Outback on 4 Blizzaks was hard to beat in the snow. Now I work in those hills we call 'mountains' and that seems to be the preferred ride of the mountain dwellers.
 
weilke said:
That restriction is not universal. True for the Subaru system with locking differrentials, n/a for the Mercedes 4-matic that uses the brakes to maintain even traction. On the MB you can replace a single tire and it doesnt care.

I had AWD cars on snow tires when I lived in ND. Yes, there are no mountains, so who cares ? With ice, even a parking deck ramp can become an obstacle without it. There is a penalty in fuel efficiency and paradoxically it seems to use more tires. Also, I had to replace an axle and a driveshaft somewhere along the 250k I put on the Subaru, I figure that could happen on a FWD too.
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Reality is AWD will really be needed maybe .1% of the time. AWD might keep you from having to chain up as often or allow driving a bit more aggressively. I drove a 2wd (read drive) Jeep commanche 270K miles and can count on 1 hand how many times FWD might have kept me from getting stuck. True this is Idaho, not Michigan. It might have allowed me to drive a bit more aggressively, but not having it all but never kept me from getting where I needed to be. FWD is much better. AWD would be a bit better. If you are going to drive it past 100k miles plan on some additional maintenance bills for the AWD over a FWD. There is just more things that will need to be worked on.

Brian
 
brcase said:
If you are going to drive it past 100k miles plan on some additional maintenance bills for the AWD over a FWD. There is just more things that will need to be worked on.
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I haven't found there to be any meaningful increase in maintenance costs. That's coming from someone who drives everything hard and racks up a lot of miles before moving on to the next car too.
 
weilke said:
That restriction is not universal. True for the Subaru system with locking differrentials,
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Subaru hasn’t ever had lockers only limited slip and those have been gone a while now. Just open diffs and the venerable “XMode” software that tries (and often fails) to lock a wheel via application of brakes.

The 2017 we have got stuck in less than a foot of snow in the driveway. The 2000 doesn’t care at all and bashed right through it.

Subaru ruined the system to appeal to a new crowd. I want “Fake4X4” as a vanity plate for the 2017 now. LOL
 
I have a 2007 Suzuki SX4 AWD. It is no longer made. Too bad. It is a blast to drive................and goes anywhere. And cute!
 
mondtster said:
I haven't found there to be any meaningful increase in maintenance costs. That's coming from someone who drives everything hard and racks up a lot of miles before moving on to the next car too.
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The only major maintenance needed on our 2011 Ford Flex with AWD was to the transfer case. That was not an inexpensive repair. In routine use the only increase in maintenance is periodic transfer case oil changes, but it is one more thing to go wrong.

That said, both our Flex and our Ridgeline are AWD, and it’s nice to have, mainly on steep gravel roads or even lightly sloped wet grass. I’d recommend it for anything “mission critical”.
 
a couple of notes from the OP
-do any of the AWD vehicles require activation (button/shifter) or are they full-time in the AWD mode?
-I want to be clear on the abbreviations in this thread;
AWD is all wheel drive
FWD is front wheel drive
4WD is four wheel drive?
 
Let'sgoflying! said:
a couple of notes from the OP
-do any of the AWD vehicles require activation (button/shifter) or are they full-time in the AWD mode?
-I want to be clear on the abbreviations in this thread;
AWD is all wheel drive
FWD is front wheel drive
4WD is four wheel drive?
Click to expand...

AWD is essentially either all time or automatic 4wd. Usually no button or shifter, although my wife's Jeep is AWD but does still have a 4WD Low. I think a lot of high end 4wd trucks also allow a selection of 2wd or automatic 4wd.

I do admit I have a 4wd truck for winter, but it's not uncommon for me to be driving through over a foot of snow going to work to plow the airport. I wouldn't make it with 2wd. We often start before the DOT gets the highway plowed. Not too many people really need to be out and about before the plows get out.
 
I'm still wondering why your 4runner isn't your friend here? Is it a 2wd model?

This past winter, first with our 4runner, was awesome. I was surprised how good it was on icy roads (25 miles to work one way). I have Grabber ATX tires with the 3 mountain peak rating. The best test is our sloped driveway in glare ice.
 
Let'sgoflying! said:
-I want to be clear on the abbreviations in this thread;
AWD is all wheel drive
FWD is front wheel drive
4WD is four wheel drive?
Click to expand...

AWD is 'allways on' from the user perspective. There is at times a system behind the scenes that uncouples front or rear while not in use, but that is transparent to the user (on demand AWD). Some AWD like Subaru are indeed always mechanically connected and use locking differentials to keep all the wheels turning.

4WD is your traditional truck type system with a transfer case and a selector. Some of those (e.g. Ford) can be switched into a mode that is pretty much on-demand AWD, but I don't know how they do that at the back end to avoid grinding the gears when switching on the 4WD. Probably uses the brakes to match the revs when the 4WD engages.
 
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Living in a northern state, we have always had AWD/4WD and wouldn’t be without it even if we moved to Florida. AWD in particular can help with vehicle dynamics and control even on wet or dry pavement, depending on how the system works.

Manufacturers like Subaru and VW/Audi used to have superior AWD systems, but while Subaru made theirs worse (especially with the awful CVT), most other manufacturers have made theirs better. Most of them seem to be open diffs + software to make them work, but the reactive nature of the systems is far superior to what it was in the past.

This person has a YouTube channel if you’re interested in some performance characteristics of different AWD systems: https://m.youtube.com/channel/UCYLv8QcoJ7NfVfTAyz6ekHA
 
Sinistar said:
I'm still wondering why your 4runner isn't your friend here? Is it a 2wd model?
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yes this “4”-Runner is indeed a 2WD vehicle.

This caused amusement/consternation the first time we tried ice. It was a ski-town that had an winter weather event.
Stuck on a mild grade.
People would see the “4” on the side of the vehicle and it was
“WTH doesn’t he put it in 4WD?!”

“B/C there is no effing 4WD in this vehicle! The “4” does NOT mean 4WD, a__-h___!”
Of course they see the Texas tags and it reinforces an unpleasant stereotype, all the while they have no idea I had 13yrs & maybe 250,000 miles in Canada lol.
 
Let'sgoflying! said:
Of course they see the Texas tags and it reinforces an unpleasant stereotype…
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There’s a great, if somewhat depressing, song by James McMurty called “Holiday”.

A line in it goes “…And it’s damn near as deadly as Texans on ice…”.

Worth a listen - I think he’s one of our great modern lyricists.

 
The very simplistic(because details do matter) view on what’s better in snow/ice for road vehicles:
RWD<FWD<4WD<AWD
Open diff<limited slip diff<3way limited slip/locking diff
All season tires<winter tires<studded winter tires

some of these are too aggressive for some winter climates and are counterproductive
 
I don’t think any Highlander has a conventional part time 4WD. I think hybrids have “split drive”: ICE drives front, electric rear. I guess if it can be put into EV mode it becomes 2wd? I’m not sure though
 
Let'sgoflying! said:
i popped over to 2021 4Runners to find that.
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Ah. That makes sense. 4Runner is basically a passenger Tacoma. Simple part time 4WD. It’s not the best for on-road snow. Mostly because In changing conditions you have to constantly shift in and out of it
 
Some of the AWD vehicles will distribute the power differently when in drive vs low. With low getting more equal distribution across all wheels.

Tires are a big consideration regardless of 4wd, awd, or even front wheel drive. Snow tires make a world of distance but, kind of require a second set of tires to switch to when not winter. Another option is tires with the three peak snow flake rating. not as good as full on Snow tires but, can be driven year round. Tread isn’t the only difference, the rubber compound also matters. For instance, does it firm up in cold weather or stay a little pliable. Snow, three peak snowflake and M+s rated tires will stay a bit more pliable. Dropping tire pressure also can help in traction challenged conditions. even the best drivetrain on the wrong tires can be frustrating.
 
NoBShere said:
Some of the AWD vehicles will distribute the power differently when in drive vs low. With low getting more equal distribution across all wheels.

Tires are a big consideration regardless of 4wd, awd, or even front wheel drive. Snow tires make a world of distance but, kind of require a second set of tires to switch to when not winter. Another option is tires with the three peak snow flake rating. not as good as full on Snow tires but, can be driven year round. Tread isn’t the only difference, the rubber compound also matters. For instance, does it firm up in cold weather or stay a little pliable. Snow, three peak snowflake and M+s rated tires will stay a bit more pliable. Dropping tire pressure also can help in traction challenged conditions. even the best drivetrain on the wrong tires can be frustrating.
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tires are a huge consideration. One can easily overdo it too. Tires that are great in snow/ice are not as great and can be outright bad in dry above freezing. So it’s a bit of a guess at what works best for specific type of weather and driving
 
genna said:
Ah. That makes sense. 4Runner is basically a passenger Tacoma. Simple part time 4WD. It’s not the best for on-road snow. Mostly because In changing conditions you have to constantly shift in and out of it
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I've never found it to be an issue here in Minnesota. That includes driving from a rural area right into Minneapolis the morning after a big snow.

I would definitely want a AWD if it was something for performance, cornering, etc. Or for any next car here in MN.

Obviously I like body on frame stuff. The wife drove both the highlander and the 4runner. I expected her to walk in from the test drive saying she preferred the more car like Highlander. She said she much preferred the 4R. One thing you have to watch, at least on the 4R is the shorter wheel base. On ice if you get on it in 4WD really hard it wants to fishtail or ground loop LOL! For the hangar we recently purchased, the back side has a garage door. But they don't snow plow. So we can easily have 2ft and sometimes bigger snow bank/drift. This sucker drives through it like it isn't even there. So depending on the snow, the decision might also be about clearance.
 
Sinistar said:
I've never found it to be an issue here in Minnesota. That includes driving from a rural area right into Minneapolis the morning after a big snow.

I would definitely want a AWD if it was something for performance, cornering, etc. Or for any next car here in MN.

Obviously I like body on frame stuff. The wife drove both the highlander and the 4runner. I expected her to walk in from the test drive saying she preferred the more car like Highlander. She said she much preferred the 4R. One thing you have to watch, at least on the 4R is the shorter wheel base. On ice if you get on it in 4WD really hard it wants to fishtail or ground loop LOL! For the hangar we recently purchased, the back side has a garage door. But they don't snow plow. So we can easily have 2ft and sometimes bigger snow bank/drift. This sucker drives through it like it isn't even there. So depending on the snow, the decision might also be about clearance.
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issue? Maybe not, but in light snow/rain mix or on patchy icy road full time 4WD is a lot better than part time that you cannot turn on due to lack of center diff. Can you deal with it, sure, but it’s definitely not preferable

deep snow, part time is fine

Edit: also, part time/full time 4WD has nothing to do with BoF or unibody. While there may be no part time 4WD unibody vehicles out there(what would be the point?), there have been plenty full time 4WD BoF
 
Discovered Lexus has SUVs. Lexus GX
Any comments on this model?
Decent engine. "Full time" 4WD. Amenities. (alas no ApplePlay*)

*can ApplePlay be retrofitted? Hacked in somehow?
 
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