NA - All wheel drive car and replacing tires

aftCG said:
There is more than one type of Scorpion. The scorpion Verde which I currently have on my car are known to get very noisy as they wear. Mine are around 15k miles and okay so far. I'll buy something else to replace them when the time comes.

The AS3 have a great reputation
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When you buy there are AS3 and AS3+

The plus is the new model



genna said:
Subies(the current crop) have their own issues. But yeah, their AWD is better(and you do need to keep tires similar on them), but still has limitations with front and rear open diffs.

However, symmetrical(or even continuous) AWD is a rare exception in cars these days. Vast majority are 2wd systems(mostly FWD) with electronic engagement of the other axle when slip is detected.
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True, personally if I was going to get a Subaru I’d go with a stick STI, or a +6 year old one.

Some of the performance GM stuff has some pretty slick AWD systems too that ether keep it all four or more RWD.
 
James331 said:
True, personally if I was going to get a Subaru I’d go with a stick STI, or a +6 year old one.

Some of the performance GM stuff has some pretty slick AWD systems too that ether keep it all four or more RWD.
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Manual Subies.. mmm yum. If only they can keep their head gaskets together(WRX/STi excluded)

Just bought my wife an AWD Infiniti. It's very rear-biased. I like it. Handles pretty well. Have not tried it in snow yet. Downside - gas mileage is pretty abysmal. Personally, i like my cars RWD with mechanical LSD, snow is not an issue here with winter tires(even that is kind of an overkill).
 
Grew up on the farm and 4wd was a must-have.

I've lived in Lincoln NE (city population of 280k ish), for over 10 years, I get to work before everyone else does on "snow days" never owned a 4wd nor needed it.
 
genna said:
Manual Subies.. mmm yum. If only they can keep their head gaskets together(WRX/STi excluded)

Just bought my wife an AWD Infiniti. It's very rear-biased. I like it. Handles pretty well. Have not tried it in snow yet. Downside - gas mileage is pretty abysmal. Personally, i like my cars RWD with mechanical LSD, snow is not an issue here with winter tires(even that is kind of an overkill).
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Had a EJ2.2 non interference swapped older Subaru, man that was a nice engine.
 
bnt83 said:
Grew up on the farm and 4wd was a must-have.

I've lived in Lincoln NE (city population of 280k ish), for over 10 years, I get to work before everyone else does on "snow days" never owned a 4wd nor needed it.
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Says it’s average is 25”

Things change when that cracks 100”

40-B31829-AE91-4198-AABA-247-F0-E4-ECEAF.gif


Heavy snow I’m not a fan of pickups even with 4x4, a nice AWD seems to do better going from snow to plowed to straight pavement on the fly, plus having better weight distribution
 
James331 said:
Says it’s average is 25”

Things change when that cracks 100”

40-B31829-AE91-4198-AABA-247-F0-E4-ECEAF.gif


Heavy snow I’m not a fan of pickups even with 4x4, a nice AWD seems to do better going from snow to plowed to straight pavement on the fly, plus having better weight distribution
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Typically the biggest challenges in this town is poorly cleaned parking lots and residential intersections, everything else is a breeze. If I can get out of the parking lot I will make it to work during snow storms. A lot of folks commute from Omaha, they stay home.
 
Check sit
genna said:
Subies(the current crop) have their own issues. But yeah, their AWD is better(and you do need to keep tires similar on them), but still has limitations with front and rear open diffs.

However, symmetrical(or even continuous) AWD is a rare exception in cars these days. Vast majority are 2wd systems(mostly FWD) with electronic engagement of the other axle when slip is detected.
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I looked into the Honda AWD recently because my daughter was looking into buying one. Their website info says it's a FWD until it detects wheel slip and then kicks in the rear for AWD only as long as necessary. That's a big difference from Subaru full-time AWD and probably is a lot more tolerant of tire size mismatches, at least between front and rear.
 
Manual soobies? Not so great, IMO. I have a WRX bought a couple of years ago. Then engine torque curve doesn't require a 6-speed but obviously the marketing department did. There is a hole between 2nd and 3rd that I have seen in other cars, probably an artifact of the fuel economy test protocol. Then, to get the unnecessary three more ratios, they are crowded together to the point where it's hardly necessary to use 5th or 6th, your choice. A little longer 4th, skip 5th, and a little longer 6th would work just fine.

Overall I am quite disappointed with the car. To get some sharp handling, very stiff springs and bars (probably, I haven't looked) are installed. The English invented this technique in the early 1950s and it was clumsy and uncomfortable even then. The engine throttle response is inconsistent and often nonlinear. I'll drive it for a few more years just because I own it and its depreciation, but I recommend against them for drivers who want a little sophistication in their car's performance.

Haven't had to change tires yet.
 
airdale said:
Manual soobies? Not so great, IMO. I have a WRX bought a couple of years ago. Then engine torque curve doesn't require a 6-speed but obviously the marketing department did. There is a hole between 2nd and 3rd that I have seen in other cars, probably an artifact of the fuel economy test protocol. Then, to get the unnecessary three more ratios, they are crowded together to the point where it's hardly necessary to use 5th or 6th, your choice. A little longer 4th, skip 5th, and a little longer 6th would work just fine.

Overall I am quite disappointed with the car. To get some sharp handling, very stiff springs and bars (probably, I haven't looked) are installed. The English invented this technique in the early 1950s and it was clumsy and uncomfortable even then. The engine throttle response is inconsistent and often nonlinear. I'll drive it for a few more years just because I own it and its depreciation, but I recommend against them for drivers who want a little sophistication in their car's performance.

Haven't had to change tires yet.
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Shoulda got the STI.

Also depends on where you are, I shake my head every time I see a lowered one, like that’s not the mission profile.
 
Matthew said:
Check sit

I looked into the Honda AWD recently because my daughter was looking into buying one. Their website info says it's a FWD until it detects wheel slip and then kicks in the rear for AWD only as long as necessary. That's a big difference from Subaru full-time AWD and probably is a lot more tolerant of tire size mismatches, at least between front and rear.
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pretty sure that's exactly what I said :):)
 
airdale said:
Manual soobies? Not so great, IMO. I have a WRX bought a couple of years ago. Then engine torque curve doesn't require a 6-speed but obviously the marketing department did. There is a hole between 2nd and 3rd that I have seen in other cars, probably an artifact of the fuel economy test protocol. Then, to get the unnecessary three more ratios, they are crowded together to the point where it's hardly necessary to use 5th or 6th, your choice. A little longer 4th, skip 5th, and a little longer 6th would work just fine.
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I find this weird gear spacing is more common than not. My car is 6sp MT and top gear is too short for me. I also skip gears all the time. In fact the damn thing will skip 1 to 4 on its own sometimes). Maybe the car is geared to be in top gear at 55ish for EPA test. Or maybe it's done so the car will probably get to its top speed right about at the end of top gear. I don't know, but I'm not planning on taking it to 198mph claimed top speed. I really could use 500 less RPM at my normal cruising speed or 70-80.
 
James331 said:
Shoulda got the STI. ...
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Nope, the vanilla one already has far more horsepower that is needed for a street car and the throttle response is already bad enough. Plus the wing is a complete joke; just a decoration I would be embarrassed to be seen with.
 
genna said:
I find this weird gear spacing is more common than not. ...
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Agreed. I'm pretty sure it is due to the fuel economy test protocol.

Re top speed, who knows what the street car designers think? In race cars top gear is selected based on maximum speed at the end of the longest straight and bottom is selected for the slowest corner. Then we fill in the middle, sometimes picking one of those gears based on a particular faster corner or short straight. Usually the middle gears are just evenly spaced. For street cars, top gear is probably selected for maximum fuel economy (brake specific horsepower IIRC) at a chosen cruising speed. 70mph, maybe?
 
Let'sgoflying! said:
Thanks for this thread.
I am going to search high and low for a non-AWD vehicle when it comes time to re-truck.
(That and a standard tranny, lol)
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If you don't need AWD, there is no reason to incur the extra expense. I just replaced two front axles on my Benz. Axles it wouldn't need if it had RWD like God intended.
 
airdale said:
Nope, the vanilla one already has far more horsepower that is needed for a street car and the throttle response is already bad enough. Plus the wing is a complete joke; just a decoration I would be embarrassed to be seen with.
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It’s sub 300hp at the crank right?

I mean shy of much over 600 for street you always could use more as long as the drivetrain can take it ;)
 
Zeldman said:
Have you thought about replacing all 4 tires.??

(sorry, just feel like this hasn't come up enough....) :rofl::rofl:
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I know I said I was done agonizing, but I really haven't. Now I'm agonizing over finding my good tires a good home. I'm envisioning a single mother working through her college degree. Sure, she could make more money on the pole, but she's out there grinding at a real job, and I respect that. ;)

Actually, I volunteer at the local SPCA and I noticed a couple weeks ago that one of the workers tires are as bald as my dad's side of the family. He's a good dude that treats each of those animals like they're his, wishing he take every single one of them home. Maybe they'll fit his car. I'd give them to him for free.
 
Fiveslide said:
I know I said I was done agonizing, but I really haven't. Now I'm agonizing over finding my good tires a good home. I'm envisioning a single mother working through her college degree. Sure, she could make more money on the pole, but she's out there grinding at a real job, and I respect that. ;)
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You could take those tires, fill them with concrete, and add a tetherball pole. That way the single mom could pole dance AND her kids could get some exercise.
 
Besides reduced fuel efficiency, I never had another good reason not to buy all wheel drive. Do now.
 
Clip4 said:
Besides reduced fuel efficiency, I never had another good reason not to buy all wheel drive. Do now.
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Cost is primary reason against AWD. Initial purchase, maintenance, additional failure points, tire rotation and wear, reduced gas mileage all add to the expense of AWD at least to some degree. Traction under acceleration is primary reason to get it. Yet it is something that can often be managed better with appropriate tires.

Handling can be both compromised or enhanced by AWD depending on the vehicle and AWD system.

Most people are buying (mostly)perceived safety and simplicity(vs tire changes) for a few extra $$ per month.
 
James331 said:
... I mean shy of much over 600 for street you always could use more as long as the drivetrain can take it ...
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No need for it on the street. Having a fast car on the street (I have had many) is like kissing your sister once you have a few thousand racing miles under your belt. My requirement for street car power is to go from 55 to 85 in three seconds. That gives me a three second passing exposure time on two lane roads, which I consider to be good enough. Anything more that than is kind of fun, but functionally unnecessary.

genna said:
... Handling can be both compromised or enhanced by AWD depending on the vehicle and AWD system ...
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It depends on what you mean by "handling." In Olden Times when the Audis were racing SCCA Trans-Am the paddock rumor was that all the front drive hardware had been removed in the interests of weight reduction.

On street cars, the AWD systems add weight and raise the car's CG to one degree or another. These both detract from best cornering speed, but the car can still "feel good." In absolute terms, though, it will be slower than a theoretical same car without AWD.
 
airdale said:
No need for it on the street. Having a fast car on the street (I have had many) is like kissing your sister once you have a few thousand racing miles under your belt. My requirement for street car power is to go from 55 to 85 in three seconds. That gives me a three second passing exposure time on two lane roads, which I consider to be good enough. Anything more that than is kind of fun, but functionally unnecessary.

It depends on what you mean by "handling." In Olden Times when the Audis were racing SCCA Trans-Am the paddock rumor was that all the front drive hardware had been removed in the interests of weight reduction.

On street cars, the AWD systems add weight and raise the car's CG to one degree or another. These both detract from best cornering speed, but the car can still "feel good." In absolute terms, though, it will be slower than a theoretical same car without AWD.
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It really depends on the car. Handling is typically defined as feel/predictability of the car at the limit. In road racing AWD can give you better traction and much better(earlier) drive out of the corner. Audis used to dominate BTCC in the 90s even with lower HP number and a built-in as well as imposed weight penalty until AWD was banned. However, AWD(especially FWD based ones) tent to be not very predictable at the limit with a lot of understeer and oversteer at different times in the same corner.
 
airdale said:
No need for it on the street. Having a fast car on the street (I have had many) is like kissing your sister once you have a few thousand racing miles under your belt. My requirement for street car power is to go from 55 to 85 in three seconds. That gives me a three second passing exposure time on two lane roads, which I consider to be good enough. Anything more that than is kind of fun, but functionally unnecessary.

It depends on what you mean by "handling." In Olden Times when the Audis were racing SCCA Trans-Am the paddock rumor was that all the front drive hardware had been removed in the interests of weight reduction.

On street cars, the AWD systems add weight and raise the car's CG to one degree or another. These both detract from best cornering speed, but the car can still "feel good." In absolute terms, though, it will be slower than a theoretical same car without AWD.
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Lots of things are not required, heck most folks don’t NEED to make more than 25k a year or ever eat fine steaks, fly planes, etc.

I NEED my WANTS lol
 
I need my AWD to get up my 1/4 mile long driveway in the winter.
 
I need my AWD so I can drive slowly through the hood after a major snowstorm, sipping coffee, and watching the 4WD pickups carrying snowblowers slip and slide around.
 
Matthew said:
I need my AWD so I can drive slowly through the hood after a major snowstorm, sipping coffee, and watching the 4WD pickups carrying snowblowers slip and slide around.
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I did that in my old '98 Mustang, with a V6 and a stick. Would regularly pass stuck Jeeps and crap slid off the road. My secret weapon? Blizzak snows. those things were better than the old studded tires, I swear. The only down side was, you COULD NOT do a donut in an iced-over parking lot. Could not. About 1/3 of the way through the tires would hook up enough to send you shooting across the lot. But you could go anywhere as long as the snow wasn't too deep.
 
DaleB said:
I did that in my old '98 Mustang, with a V6 and a stick. Would regularly pass stuck Jeeps and crap slid off the road. My secret weapon? Blizzak snows. those things were better than the old studded tires, I swear. The only down side was, you COULD NOT do a donut in an iced-over parking lot. Could not. About 1/3 of the way through the tires would hook up enough to send you shooting across the lot. But you could go anywhere as long as the snow wasn't too deep.
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I had an old MK1 Jetta winter beater with Nokian Hakkapeliitta snows on all four, it was a friggin snow cat. Back in the day I drove it all over New England on ski trips, and yes, I often passed right by Jeeps and 4wd trucks that were stuck.
 
Snow tires are the best. We usually have dry winters with a few heavy snows (>6”) and a few more light snows. Usually it’s just ff the streets within a day. All seasons are what most of us use around here.

Worst areas are on hills with traffic lights on the crest. The snow, even a light snow, gets hard packed and glazed over. That’s when cars lose their momentum and have trouble moving again without sliding backwards.
 
I live in the boonies. Closest tire shop is 20 miles, best tire deals are 50 miles.

When you're on the donut tire, that little 50 mile drive becomes an odyssey. It's a slow journey, fraught with perils, it seems like every other driver on the road transforms into a donut-tire troll. They lurk at turns and intersections and do things that could cause you to lose control of your car.

The price difference is worth the journey. I don't see how people feel safe on these little donut tires on the interstate, doing highway speeds. They be looney.

Of course the wife popped the one on the front and the manual says don't drive long distances with the spare on the front. So I had to make that swap yesterday.
 
Fiveslide said:
Of course the wife popped the one on the front and the manual says don't drive long distances with the spare on the front. So I had to make that swap yesterday.
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That's probably for safety. On the FWD car(and your Element is most of the time), rear is the better placement for the donut. But if your front tire blows, it would take 3 complete tire changes to put donut in the back with typical tools in the car. You can keep a jack stand in the car to make it simpler. Donut in the back is pretty trivial for FWD car as rear tires don't do much work. RWD may be more complicated(depends on the car). You can also leave one of those extra tires for a full-size spare.

Other options: Road side assistance to get towed to the shop. Take the busted wheel to a shop without the car attached to it(if you have another vehicle)
 
genna said:
That's probably for safety. On the FWD car(and your Element is most of the time), rear is the better placement for the donut. But if your front tire blows, it would take 3 complete tire changes to put donut in the back with typical tools in the car. You can keep a jack stand in the car to make it simpler. Donut in the back is pretty trivial for FWD car as rear tires don't do much work. RWD may be more complicated(depends on the car). You can also leave one of those extra tires for a full-size spare.

Other options: Road side assistance to get towed to the shop. Take the busted wheel to a shop without the car attached to it(if you have another vehicle)
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Yep, the bad tire was on the front. I originally took both fronts off because I was going to replace just two. Then after further research and price comparison, had to remount the left front, move the right rear to the right front, put the donut on the right rear. All so I could drive the car to have all four replaced.

I can tell you the car's drivetrain made a whining sound with the donut on it, I'm assuming it is from the size difference. I will be replacing the donut with a full size spare.

I don't think roadside assistance should be used for tires unless you're absolutely incapable of changing a tire or you have more than one flat. You can change the tire and be on your way before the assistance arrives.

The salesman pitched the protection plan to me. I asked what happened if the car needed all four tires because of AWD, he said they put four new ones on. I took the Gamble and paid the extra $40.
 
I had a front wheel drive car years ago, '88 Pontiac Grand Am. In the book is said if the front tire goes flat, take a rear tire and put it up front and put the donut on the rear.
 
Zeldman said:
I had a front wheel drive car years ago, '88 Pontiac Grand Am. In the book is said if the front tire goes flat, take a rear tire and put it up front and put the donut on the rear.
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My best guess is this is for braking stability, aka safety. That car most definitely had an open front diff so donut wouldn't hurt anything mechanically. My friend used to have a Civic Si. FWD with LSD. Once(or twice I guess) he had a front wheel puncture 2 times in the same week. Now, on that setup you CAN hurt the car's differential.

So, twice he had to do this on the side of the road.
1. Take off punctured wheel in front, 2. put on donut in front, 3. take off a rear wheel, 4. put on punctured wheel in back, 5. take off donut in front, 6. put on former rear wheel in front, 7. take off punctured wheel in back, 8. put on donut in back.

Fun!
 
genna said:
1. Take off punctured wheel in front, 2. put on donut in front, 3. take off a rear wheel, 4. put on punctured wheel in back, 5. take off donut in front, 6. put on former rear wheel in front, 7. take off punctured wheel in back, 8. put on donut in back.
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Yes, it does sound like fun.!!

If I can remember that far back, there was a point on the car where I could put the scissor jack and lift both wheels barely off the ground. I never had a chance to test that out. I only had 2 flats on that car and both times it was the rear, and both times I filled the tire up, drove to my shop and used my machine to break down the tire and fix it myself. I sure wish I still had that tire machine.
 
genna said:
That's probably for safety. On the FWD car(and your Element is most of the time), rear is the better placement for the donut. But if your front tire blows, it would take 3 complete tire changes to put donut in the back with typical tools in the car.
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Three?

Jack up rear, take off rear tire, mount donut, lower onto the ground
Jack up front, take off front tire, put on the one you took off the rear

I count two.

I guess I'm lucky. I think I've had one flat tire since 2011, and two total since 1998. That's a flat every ten years or so... I'm probably about due again.
 
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