N/A Navajo for multi training?

Piperboy

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Piperboy
I am thinking of using a normally aspirated Navajo for Multi, Multi Instructor, ATP, etc. training. Three to four days per week, do most of my own maintenance. I think loitering around such as during training flights the fuel flow can be kept at around 25 gph. There is a flight school that charges $499 per hour dual in a Duchess. I think I can do it cheaper in a Navajo. What do you guys think?
 
How is this N/A?

Anyway, the Navajo is a bit more airplane over the Duchess but I don't see why your proposed mission couldn't be done. What does your CFI think about the idea?
 
I am thinking of using a normally aspirated Navajo for Multi, Multi Instructor, ATP, etc. training. Three to four days per week, do most of my own maintenance. I think loitering around such as during training flights the fuel flow can be kept at around 25 gph. There is a flight school that charges $499 per hour dual in a Duchess. I think I can do it cheaper in a Navajo. What do you guys think?

Not sure what model of Navajo you plan to use but I believe they are all bigger airframe and higher horsepower engines than my Aztec, so your 25 gph may be a bit optimistic.
 
Sure, it's MEL. Previous replies good to know shet too.
 
Why use a Navajo? That a lot of airplane for your mission?

Did you find a killer deal on one for sale or something?


How is this N/A?

...

I think he ment Naturally Aspirated
 
I can't believe a 'Ho would be economical to operate for that mission compared to its competition (Duchess, Seneca, etc.) You simply don't need anywhere near that much airplane to do the type of instruction you'd like to do. I'm betting insurance would be out of sight, too.
 
Based on what the preimum would likley be, compared to what the airframe is worth, sounds like a non insured situation, unless this guy is super rich, and in that case decisions like this, he won't be rich for long ;)
 
Maybe training isn't the primary mission.

Yes, insurance could be tough, but with the right instructor presenting the right training program, it'd probably be doable.
 
It is a conversion, has the IO-540 M1A5 engines, and I am the one who wants to teach in it.
 
These engines develop 300 hp on a standard day, little bit more than the Aztec's, and so burn more as well, but flying at about 3000 feet at 140 knots indicated - such as I would during training the fuel flow would be around 25 gph. I will check the SOP.
 
I will be looking for instructors and examiners with experience in type.
 
Why use a Navajo? That a lot of airplane for your mission?

Did you find a killer deal on one for sale or something?

The normally aspirated Navajo has very good single engine performance. For training I can pull the power back and the economics should be decent, but should a need arise, the airplane has the performance on two or one engine to get out of a jam. I looked at Senecas, and the single engine performance is weak.
 
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I can't believe a 'Ho would be economical to operate for that mission compared to its competition (Duchess, Seneca, etc.) You simply don't need anywhere near that much airplane to do the type of instruction you'd like to do. I'm betting insurance would be out of sight, too.

I agree that it would be more economical to operate a Duchess or a Seneca, and normally don't need that much airplane, but the extra performance available is a comfortable thought. I will check the insurance cost to give dual in this airplane.
 
Based on what the preimum would likley be, compared to what the airframe is worth, sounds like a non insured situation, unless this guy is super rich, and in that case decisions like this, he won't be rich for long ;)

No I am not super rich. We will see what AOPA says about insuring it to give dual training in it. The airplane as it stands today is worth $74,400 as determined by Vref.
 
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I checked it up, at 3000 feet at 140 knots indicated - as would be during training - this bird will be at 45% of power, burning 22 gph. Not bad guys is it?
 
Maybe training isn't the primary mission.

Yes, insurance could be tough, but with the right instructor presenting the right training program, it'd probably be doable.

Little bit of personal flying, but mostly training. You think insurance could be tough if the airplane was used for training?
 
Probably not a big enough market for the actuaries to be comfortable.

Keep in mind, too, that the reason flight schools are charging what they do for a Duchess has little to do with fuel flows.
 
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Little bit of personal flying, but mostly training. You think insurance could be tough if the airplane was used for training?

I think it could be rather eye-opening. I'd make it a point to check that out first before going too much further.
 
I agree that it would be more economical to operate a Duchess or a Seneca, and normally don't need that much airplane, but the extra performance available is a comfortable thought.

When you're teaching in a piston twin performance is a double-edged sword... at best. There's a reason Senecas and Duchesses are popular training twins, and that's because of their docile handling OIE. Performance in the Seneca is generally considered acceptable for training and I can attest to its excellent manners in the hands of a ham-fisted pilot. I have flown the Ho but have never taught in it and I'm not sure I'd want to. That's a lot of airplane to hand a pilot new to twins. I feel as though there could be part of the puzzle that hasn't been revealed here so I'll reserve judgement, but from afar I think using a Ho in this application would be atypical and non-ideal.
 
There's a reason Senecas and Duchesses are popular training twins, and that's because of their docile handling OIE. Performance in the Seneca is generally considered acceptable for training and I can attest to its excellent manners in the hands of a ham-fisted pilot. I have flown the Ho but have never taught in it and I'm not sure I'd want to. That's a lot of airplane to hand a pilot new to twins. I feel as though there could be part of the puzzle that hasn't been revealed here so I'll reserve judgement, but from afar I think using a Ho in this application would be atypical and non-ideal.

The Ho is as docile as a Seneca, easy to fly, no big deal. This airplane inspires confidence. Well designed and built, carries ice well. If I was in some very nasty weather, I would much prefer to be in the Ho than any of the twins mentioned here. I think it's a perfect airplane for a number of purposes. Atypical in a typical training role - by all means.
 
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You're also not going to be able to properly instruct folks if you're only operating at the minimum power setting to get it aloft with wings straight and level.
 
The Ho is as docile as a Seneca, easy to fly, no big deal. This airplane inspires confidence. Well designed and built, carries ice well. If I was in some very nasty weather, I would much prefer to be in the Ho than any of the twins mentioned here. I think it's a perfect airplane for a number of purposes. Atypical in a typical training role - by all means.

I will politely disagree with you about the aircraft being as easy to fly as the Seneca. I have flown both and the Ho is more of a handful than is needed in the training role. Is it "easy to fly" for what it is - yes. Is it easy to fly compared to a typical light twin trainer - no. When you're transitioning a pilot out of a Cessna 172 or Piper Arrow into their first twin, the Ho doesn't exactly spring to mind.

The bigger issue is simply going to be the cost of operating and insuring the aircraft vs. its competition. I just can't believe you're going to find a way to be able to offer primary multiengine training in a Navajo at rates that best the going standards for the typical light trainers out on the market. If you can figure out a way to do that and make money, and the demand is there, then all the more power to you.
 
You're also not going to be able to properly instruct folks if you're only operating at the minimum power setting to get it aloft with wings straight and level.

We will open it up as necessary, do it all as required. On an ILS it's about 16 gph, on a go-around at full power around 49 gph. I think the average fuel flow during training flights will be around 25 gph.
 
I will politely disagree with you about the aircraft being as easy to fly as the Seneca. I have flown both and the Ho is more of a handful than is needed in the training role. Is it "easy to fly" for what it is - yes. Is it easy to fly compared to a typical light twin trainer - no. When you're transitioning a pilot out of a Cessna 172 or Piper Arrow into their first twin, the Ho doesn't exactly spring to mind.

The bigger issue is simply going to be the cost of operating and insuring the aircraft vs. its competition. I just can't believe you're going to find a way to be able to offer primary multiengine training in a Navajo at rates that best the going standards for the typical light trainers out on the market. If you can figure out a way to do that and make money, and the demand is there, then all the more power to you.

Well this is why I posted this, to see what people think about it. I will do most - like 80% - of the maintenance myself, which I like doing almost as much as flying. This will reduce the cost. Being non-turbo also reduces the operating and maintenance cost. I am not greedy and my hourly charge will be reasonable, further lowering the hourly rate. I think I can offer this class of airplane for dual instruction for less than the school I mentioned above, with the Duchess for $499 per hour.

I might be more inclined to offer this semi-airline environment type of training to more advanced students, like ATP candidates, ME Instructors, though I wouldn't refuse anyone, though I will have only about four days per week for this, and this would include maximum of 8 hrs. of flight time per week. This would be a part-time gig, more for the challenge and fun of it than profit, as I also enjoy teaching. If I can earn enough profit to pay my expenses, which are not high, then I might give it a try.
 
I will do most - like 80% - of the maintenance myself, which I like doing almost as much as flying. This will reduce the cost.

That would certainly help.

I think I can offer this class of airplane for dual instruction for less than the school I mentioned above, with the Duchess for $499 per hour.

Is that the only other local option? That's extremely expensive for a Duchess. Can that be right? I did a quick search for multi-engine wet rates and found:

Duchess - $219/hr. wet - Aspen Flying Club
Seneca I - $235/hr. wet - DCT Aviation
Duchess - $170/hr. wet - Apopka Aviation
Baron - $246/hr. wet - Air Trek North
Seneca I - $277/hr. wet - Regal Air

I found those in 5 minutes of Googling. I'm sure there are countless more.

I don't think most clients interested in renting a light twin for instructional (or even time-building) purposes are going to expect to pay more than $280ish/hr. wet.

By the way I hope I don't come across as argumentative, I'm merely discussing the subject with you as you seem to be interested in the input of others. I certainly hope for your success regardless of what you choose to do but this one seems like a long shot to me.
 
Is that the only other local option? That's extremely expensive for a Duchess. Can that be right? I did a quick search for multi-engine wet rates and found:

Duchess - $219/hr. wet - Aspen Flying Club
Seneca I - $235/hr. wet - DCT Aviation
Duchess - $170/hr. wet - Apopka Aviation
Baron - $246/hr. wet - Air Trek North
Seneca I - $277/hr. wet - Regal Air

The $499 Duchess is not the only option in the area. There are 2 nice Seneca I for about $370 per hour dual, but further away from this area. Your quotes are solo I assume - without instructor?
 
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The $499 Duchess is not the only option in the area. There are 2 nice Seneca I for about $370 per hour dual, but further away from this area. Your quotes are solo I assume - without instructor?

Correct -- you only need to add $50/hr. for the instructor. It's still quite a bit less expensive than what you're proposing. Care to share the general geographic area in which you're located?

Are you "trapped" into using a Navajo for this role? If your business concept is still in the initial stages and you're exploring different twins for the role, a smaller twin would seem to be a better fit so you'll be able to compete in the local market. Or are you really wanting a Navajo for personal use and trying to justify it somehow? It's one thing to try to figure out a way to monetize a Navajo because it's all you have to use, quite another to intentionally select it for the training role. There's a reason you basically don't see this being done anywhere else.

There's not a huge demand for ME training for the most part -- and those that want it, usually want it for the least training dollar investment possible. You're seeing more and more of these block package offerings out there nowadays. You're also competing against academy-style 141 schools which offer integrated multi-engine training packages. The market tends to get slimmed down somewhat by the time you see the applicant who would be interested in your services. They don't want to go the academy route, they don't want to buy a package, they just want to work with a local instructor and plane. At that point the price-shopping comes into play and that's where you'd be at a disadvantage operating a Chieftain.

When I was instructing full-time, most of my students were multi-commercial add-ons, with only the occasional ATP or time-builder. That was in one of the busiest training markets in the U.S. Pilots on a career track don't tend to have a lot of disposable income.
 
NYC area. It's NOT a Chieftain which has very expensive, thirsty TIO-540s. I am talking about normally aspirated short body Navajo. I'll reply to your interesting response later.
 
NYC area. It's NOT a Chieftain which has very expensive, thirsty TIO-540s. I am talking about normally aspirated short body Navajo. I'll reply to your interesting response later.

Sounds good. It's probably all a moot point until you get the insurance question answered.
 
I might be more inclined to offer this semi-airline environment type of training to more advanced students, like ATP candidates, ME Instructors,
From my experience, I don't think people looking to move up (at least to the airlines) would be willing to pay the extra because the airlines don't really care what twin you got your experience in. They just want you to have the minimum qualifications. ME Instructors want the add-on in the cheapest/easiest manner possible and a bonus would be to get the experience in the type planes you'd actually be instructing in (seneca/duchess).

Just my .02 cents.
 
From my experience, I don't think people looking to move up (at least to the airlines) would be willing to pay the extra because the airlines don't really care what twin you got your experience in. They just want you to have the minimum qualifications. ME Instructors want the add-on in the cheapest/easiest manner possible and a bonus would be to get the experience in the type planes you'd actually be instructing in (seneca/duchess).

Just my .02 cents.

I sort of also think that people don't care what they get the ratings in, and are unwilling to pay more for it - most of them. The airlines also look that the candidate meets the requirements. ME Instructors, yes they just want the add-on, so that most likely will not be a good source. Some ATP, Navajo type, Navajo recurrent training might be better source. There are a lot of Navajos still operating.

Nevertheless, I think that there is a small niche market for this type of service. I used to drive a VW Golf. One day I swapped cars with a friend. I got to drive his BMW. What a fantastic ride it was. I said I got to have one. So one can drive a $20,000 VW or a $45,000 BMW (another friend said she spent $60,000 on a BMW). Most people will buy the VW. Some of them have to have BMWs. You put an average Seminole next to a fully equipped Navajo and the BMW guys will take the more expensive Navajo.
 
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Correct -- you only need to add $50/hr. for the instructor. It's still quite a bit less expensive than what you're proposing. Care to share the general geographic area in which you're located?

Are you "trapped" into using a Navajo for this role? If your business concept is still in the initial stages and you're exploring different twins for the role, a smaller twin would seem to be a better fit so you'll be able to compete in the local market. Or are you really wanting a Navajo for personal use and trying to justify it somehow? It's one thing to try to figure out a way to monetize a Navajo because it's all you have to use, quite another to intentionally select it for the training role. There's a reason you basically don't see this being done anywhere else.

There's not a huge demand for ME training for the most part -- and those that want it, usually want it for the least training dollar investment possible. You're seeing more and more of these block package offerings out there nowadays. You're also competing against academy-style 141 schools which offer integrated multi-engine training packages. The market tends to get slimmed down somewhat by the time you see the applicant who would be interested in your services. They don't want to go the academy route, they don't want to buy a package, they just want to work with a local instructor and plane. At that point the price-shopping comes into play and that's where you'd be at a disadvantage operating a Chieftain.

When I was instructing full-time, most of my students were multi-commercial add-ons, with only the occasional ATP or time-builder. That was in one of the busiest training markets in the U.S. Pilots on a career track don't tend to have a lot of disposable income.

I welcome any and all input. I am trying to sort everything out, and establish the extent of this niche market. I am not "trapped" into this. As I will retire from full-time professional flying in few years, I decided I want to keep on flying, part time, spanning about four days, 24 hours, with maximum of 8 hours of flight time per week. Little bit of personal flying, teach some, some ground school, work on the airplane, create a little school with unique aero-club like ambiance in a hangar.

So I looked at the Twin Comanche, Baron, Seminole, Twin Velocity, Seneca, Aztec, Crusader, Cougar, Geronimo, Skymaster, and the Navajo. I studied the performance of all these airplanes. I would be pretty happy with say a Seneca under normal circumstances. Problem with most of these light twins is when you loose one engine. The single engine performance in a Seneca I on a standard day is weak 190 fpm. Crank the temperature up to 95 and the Seneca's already weak single engine climb now becomes hang-on for dear life 90 fpm, practically no climb.

The normally aspirated Navajo will climb at about 320 fpm on a standard day, and will still climb at about 230 fpm on a 95 degree day. Furthermore, Seneca I with 93 gallons of fuel, a student, instructor, observer, and few flight bags will be pretty close to it's maximum gross take-off weight of 4200 lbs. The N/A Navajo with the same 93 gallon fuel load - good for a 2.5 hr. training flight - with the same student, instructor, observer, and some flight bags will be 1200-1400 lbs below it's maximum take-off weight, where it's single engine climb will be around 600(!) fpm. This bird will get you out of a jam! That's guaranteed safety my friends. Health and life have no price tags to them.
 
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The N/A Navajo with the same 93 gallon fuel load - good for a 2.5 hr. training flight - with the same student, instructor, observer, and some flight bags will be 1200-1400 lbs below it's maximum take-off weight, where it's single engine climb will be around 600(!) fpm. This bird will get you out of a jam! That's guaranteed safety my friends. Health and life have no price tags to them.
I'd say that "guaranteed safety" is a LOT further than I'd be willing to commit to...horsepower may get you out of a jam, but if you got into the jam in the first place, you've been misapplying whatever horsepower you're using, and I'd venture it'd probably just get you into more trouble.
 
Guaranteed safety as it applies to engine out performance, where the Navajo will get you up and around the patch to a successful landing at an airport.
 
It's a nice bird and clearly you are qualified to teach in it. Your obstacles are insurance and the fact that you will be competing with other less expensive twins for students. Good luck with your endeavor and I for one hope it works out. Its really more about YOU.

I don't know if you could somehow get a list of pilots who have completed their commercial recently and send them a mailing as they might be prospective students for a twin rating. Might be worth looking into.
 
Thanks for the encouraging words.

:D
 
Guaranteed safety as it applies to engine out performance, where the Navajo will get you up and around the patch to a successful landing at an airport.
how much ground do you cover before the airplane is configured to climb like that?
 
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That is a good question. I was just about to post to see if anybody knows where I can get the accelerate-go charts for the Navajo. The accelerate-stop charts are in the POH. There is a Navajo pilot on this forum, I think his name is Ted, and I read his post once where he said Piper publishes accelerate-go charts. The accelerate-go distance to a height of 50' at maximum take-off weight of 6200 lbs. will be somewhere around 4600 feet. At 5000 lbs. it will be less.
 
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And when you get to 50 feet and away from ground effect, your climb gradient will probably be about 600 fpm down until the gear is fully retracted, the prop is feathered, and cowl flaps are closed.

Again, how much ground do you cover before you get your 600 fpm climb rate?
 
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