My last lesson brought this to mind.

Allison Riccardi

Allison Riccardi

Ejection Handle Pulled
Joined
Feb 1, 2017
Messages
45
Display Name
Display name:
Angelwings
So here we are flying due west. I am to do climbing and descending turns. Its a pretty hazy day, but Aviationweather.gov said 3SM. I have pretty good vision, solid 20/20. With the sun in my eyes, given a heading and altitude, I am expected to do that, while being cognizant of traffic. A plane went past on the same altitude, but about a half mile away going the opposite way. So I guess my question is how I can I know where everyone is at at all times, on a hazy day, while doing maneuvers?
 
Allison Riccardi said:
So here we are flying due west. I am to do climbing and descending turns. Its a pretty hazy day, but Aviationweather.gov said 3SM. I have pretty good vision, solid 20/20. With the sun in my eyes, given a heading and altitude, I am expected to do that, while being cognizant of traffic. A plane went past on the same altitude, but about a half mile away going the opposite way. So I guess my question is how I can I know where everyone is at at all times, on a hazy day, while doing maneuvers?
Click to expand...
You can't. Do the best you can, use your lights, stay vigilant, use ATC, use any equipment you may have on board. Beyond that the Big Sky Theory takes over.
 
Well if you're high enough you can get flight following with ATC or buy an ADS-B in solution that will provide a picture of most of the traffic around you.

Yeah, what Kritch said.
 
Aircraft are normally hard to spot, even in the best conditions, and depends a lot on the background, angle of convergence, visibility, etc... having 20/20 doesn't matter much with 3 SM visibility-in haze with a head-on convergence...

If you choose to fly in those conditions, expect some surprises...
 
Allison Riccardi said:
So here we are flying due west. I am to do climbing and descending turns. Its a pretty hazy day, but Aviationweather.gov said 3SM. I have pretty good vision, solid 20/20. With the sun in my eyes, given a heading and altitude, I am expected to do that, while being cognizant of traffic. A plane went past on the same altitude, but about a half mile away going the opposite way. So I guess my question is how I can I know where everyone is at at all times, on a hazy day, while doing maneuvers?
Click to expand...

ADS-B helps a lot, but the real benefits happen when your plane has ADS-B out, then if ATC can see it, so can you. This would be at typical cruising altitudes. Flight following / IFR flight plans are helpful. Monitor CTAF when flying near airports. Otherwise it's see and avoid, which has a lot on inherent limitations, especially on hazy days. Remember, there's always going to be some one flying when and where they shouldn't, not following established patterns, and not talking to anyone.
 
Flight following...even for local maneuvers. While never an absolute or a crutch it is always helpful to have a second set of eyes looking out for you.

Too many people think FF is only for long XC trips...not the case at all. If I am not on CTAF I am talking to ATC on FF every flight.
 
Shawn said:
Too many people think FF is only for long XC trips...not the case at all. If I am not on CTAF I am on FF talking to ATC every flight.
Click to expand...

Yup, anytime I go to the practice area to do maneuvers I ask for FF, and even tell them in the call up that I'd really appreciate having a second set of eyes looking out for me.
 
I recall a comment by an ATC controller during a TRACON tour where he said "Nothing is more nerve wracking at my job than watching two 1200 targets converging at the same attitude on radar and HOPING they come out on either side cuz neither called us up thinking we didn't want to be bothered. I would much rather help keep them alive"
 
For the controller types: Best way to ask for local advisories in a practice area?

I request flight following when there is a destination other than my departure airport. If I'm just going to do maneuvers I ask for local advisories and tell them generally the area I'll be in.. "South of xyz lake between two thousand five hundred and four thousand five hundred" for example.

Seems to always work, but I don't know if there's another way to shorten/clarify the request.
 
Those saying Radar or ADS-B are going to show them all aircraft are going to be in for a nasty surprise someday when they’re counting the rivets on something that just missed them by a few yards.
 
"BF approach bugsmasher 6969 is in the east practice area for maneuvers, request flight following"
 
Ravioli said:
For the controller types: Best way to ask for local advisories in a practice area?

I request flight following when there is a destination other than my departure airport. If I'm just going to do maneuvers I ask for local advisories and tell them generally the area I'll be in.. "South of xyz lake between two thousand five hundred and four thousand five hundred" for example.

Seems to always work, but I don't know if there's another way to shorten/clarify the request.
Click to expand...

Some places have specific local practice areas that controller's are familiar with. "Cessna 12345, request flight following west practice area at or below 5,500." If no offical practice area then "Cessna 12355, request flight following south of lake XYZ at or below 5,500."

Personally, when I worked approach, I didn't care if they just said "local area" with no altitude. The whole point is to watch them and keep them advised of what's around them. At 100 kts, they ain't gonna sneak up on anything (airspace / other traffic) in a hurry .:)
 
Ravioli said:
For the controller types: Best way to ask for local advisories in a practice area?
Click to expand...

"...request flight following for maneuvers 10 miles west of Podunk".

All they really wanna know is what to expect from you. While they may ask for a destination airport sometimes (wherever you are gonna land once you done) to enter into the system, they do not actually need detailed flight plan information. They just wanna know what your intentions are so they can keep tabs on ya and other aircraft in your area.

"Maneuvers" is generally accepted as a way to communicate "I am not gonna be flyin in straight line" for whatever purpose (training, photography, whale watching, circling your Ex's house) and commonly recognized for the types of things you would be doing during flight training.
 
Last edited:
Ravioli said:
For the controller types: Best way to ask for local advisories in a practice area?

I request flight following when there is a destination other than my departure airport. If I'm just going to do maneuvers I ask for local advisories and tell them generally the area I'll be in.. "South of xyz lake between two thousand five hundred and four thousand five hundred" for example.

Seems to always work, but I don't know if there's another way to shorten/clarify the request.
Click to expand...
It can be as simple as:
"Podunk Approach, Cessna 123AB"
"Cessna 3AB, Podunk...?"
"3AB is just off (satellite airport) will be maneuvering in the East Practice Area at 3000'."

As long as the ATC facility knows the vicinity that you'll be doing the maneuvering, the above seems to work just fine. Also, you don't have to specifically say "request flight following" if you're just doing maneuvers, as the above phraseology will automatically trigger ATC to issue a local beacon code and will do the same action. I typically don't use the words "request flight following" unless my flight takes me from A to B.
 
SbestCFII said:
ADS-B helps a lot, but the real benefits happen when your plane has ADS-B out, then if ATC can see it, so can you. This would be at typical cruising altitudes. Flight following / IFR flight plans are helpful. Monitor CTAF when flying near airports. Otherwise it's see and avoid, which has a lot on inherent limitations, especially on hazy days. Remember, there's always going to be some one flying when and where they shouldn't, not following established patterns, and not talking to anyone.
Click to expand...

ADS-B is not great when out doing Steep Turns and such. You'll get alerts like "TRAFFIC, SAME ALTITUDE, 0 MILES" Finally after you've swallowed the lump in your throat did you realize you were being chased by a ghost ship.
 
I guess we should've replied with the caveat that with the technology available , nothing will always tell you "where everyone is at, at all times." I thought that was pretty much a given. Yes, ATC, ADS-B, TIS-B, and TCAS all have limitations. But, with traffic awareness systems in place and your eye balls you should be able to identify 99 % of what's out there.
 
Velocity173 said:
I guess we should've replied with the caveat that with the technology available , nothing will always tell you "where everyone is at, at all times." I thought that was pretty much a given. Yes, ATC, ADS-B, TIS-B, and TCAS all have limitations. But, with traffic awareness systems in place and your eye balls you should be able to identify 99 % of what's out there.
Click to expand...
Perhaps I should invent this device. Hmm.
 
Although ADS-B isn't perfect and not everyone has Out...I find a Stratus type device to be incredibly helpful with traffic.
 
Velocity173 said:
I guess we should've replied with the caveat that with the technology available , nothing will always tell you "where everyone is at, at all times." I thought that was pretty much a given. Yes, ATC, ADS-B, TIS-B, and TCAS all have limitations. But, with traffic awareness systems in place and your eye balls you should be able to identify 99 % of what's out there.
Click to expand...

Exactly. Amazing how much traffic I wouldn't have seen before I got my Stratus.
 
Big sky actually works. The number to midair collisions every year is usually in the single digits. You are far more likely to inadvertently fly into bad weather or run out of gas.
 
steingar said:
Big sky actually works. The number to midair collisions every year is usually in the single digits. You are far more likely to inadvertently fly into bad weather or run out of gas.
Click to expand...


About that, no it doesn't, big sky is a very bad plan traffic avoidance.
 
Bill Jennings said:
Yup, anytime I go to the practice area to do maneuvers I ask for FF, and even tell them in the call up that I'd really appreciate having a second set of eyes looking out for me.
Click to expand...
this is one of my questions. when I go to practice area and then outside the TRSA, they cut me loose (not really going anywhere, just flying for the heck of it). how can I ask for FF without a destination? can I just ask hand me over to the center and I am just going to fly north without any destination?
 
WannFly said:
this is one of my questions. when I go to practice area and then outside the TRSA, they cut me loose (not really going anywhere, just flying for the heck of it). how can I ask for FF without a destination? can I just ask hand me over to the center and I am just going to fly north without any destination?
Click to expand...

Which TRSA? How far north of it is the practice area? Never hurts to ask for what you want. If they have radar coverage in that area, they'll likely give you FF. If not, they might tell you who could give you FF. I will say that I've never asked center for flight following in a practice area, it's always been from the local C.
 
Bill Jennings said:
Which TRSA? How far north of it is the practice area? Never hurts to ask for what you want. If they have radar coverage in that area, they'll likely give you FF. If not, they might tell you who could give you FF. I will say that I've never asked center for flight following in a practice area, it's always been from the local C.
Click to expand...

if I am in the practice area, that fall within the TRSA (KFAR), I always ask for going to bla bla practice area and I get a code for the box. now when I am at the edge of the TRSA and want to just fly around because I see a barn 10 miles out, as I cross the TRSA departure will typically call me and say, are you leaving TRSA? yes. ok squawk VFR. north to us is the grand forks airspace. or east of us is usually the MSP center. can I ask departure to hand me over to center and tell them I will be circling above a barn / lake/ areal tour of current area at 5500?
 
Allison Riccardi said:
What makes you rebuttal that claim.
Click to expand...

In part this: https://www.faasafety.gov/files/notices/2013/Jun/FAA_collision_avoidance_info.pdf

Also a pilot accepts many risks when flying. Most of those risks can be minimized or eliminated via good practices. Mid-airs is one of those risks that requires constant vigilance to minimize and requires other pilots to be doing the same. Big sky implies that there is always adequate clearance between airplanes because the sky is so big it's difficult for two planes to be on a collision course. Nothing could be further from the truth. The very nature of our operations make the sky very small. We fly to and from a limited number of airports, we operate in airspace artificially compressed by airspace restrictions that funnel traffic into narrow areas. We approach from all directions and line up to basically one runway for most airports. To think "big sky" will some how protect you is insane.

Finally, I've just recently returned to flying, I was out last week, zipping along at 105 knots in a 172, looking outside for traffic when what do I see? Another airplane fixed in position, same altitude, headed right for me about 3 or 4 miles ahead. I maneuvered to the right, he flew straight and level. I don't think he saw me, maybe he did, but if I hadn't turned and he didn't see me, I'm pretty sure we would have hit. I like to think other pilots are out there using all the tools they have, first and foremost, their eyes, to avoid conflicts.
 
All good answers for Mr Ravioli. Nothing add other than keep your scan going as advisories are a secondary function for controllers. Not saying they won't help, they will, but IFR separation is primary.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top