My (ex) instructor called me and nagged me because..

My take on this is that, with no unexpected events (go around, vectoring...) you are good to go in that plane with 5 gallons. However, in the event of unexpected headwinds, a go around, atc vectoring, or any other event that would prolong your air time, those 5 gallons could be gone much more quickly than you anticipated. Also I think some night time with a CFI may be a good idea.
 
Personally, I think you cut it close even if you were legal.

That said, its your a$$ not his. You have the license. Youre PIC. He should have approached you differently if at all.

Ive actually TRIED to engage my ex-instructor in a couple of my after-license decisions with the offer of a chat over a beer and cant get the guy engaged.
 
cowman said:
I too use foreflight and I've been quite impressed with the accuracy of it's calculation of time en route with headwinds factored in and have seen it often be within the minute and within a gallon on time/fuel estimates.
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The Avilution guys gave a presentation to a local pilots group. I had used the trial version before the meeting to get a feel for what it had. Garmin Pilot will calculate trip times using current winds aloft. I couldn't find this feature in Avilution. Asked about it. Not only did the developers not think it was worth adding, I was laughed at by both them and most of the other pilots present (all, to a person, very senior citizens) for even wanting it.

I suppose if all you do is fly around the airport and hop over to the local pan cake breakfast you don't need it. But I like it, find it useful, and it's nice to hear someone else using a similar feature. :)
 
Winds aloft forecasts are next to useless. I've seen winds more than 20 knots different from forecast, even less than 5 miles from the forecast point.

Do you guys really trust it that much?
 
No, I will not push the envelope. If I could have done something different, then yes, I would have gotten fuel. And as far as conditions at other airports around me? I had foreflight hooked up I ads-b so yes, I knew the conditions at all 4 airports.

I have a license to learn and that's what I'm doing. Maybe I should bump my personal minimums.
As far as night flying, Im fine with it, I've flown 16 of my 90hrs at night. I just would rather save night flying for when I have my instrument rating.

We live, we learn. I will not let this happen again.
 
You'd be better served to expand your personal minimums.....even with the instrument rating.

Extra fuel is like safety in the bank....it buys time and lots of other options when things don't occur as planned.
 
MarcoDA40 said:
No, I will not push the envelope. If I could have done something different, then yes, I would have gotten fuel. And as far as conditions at other airports around me? I had foreflight hooked up I ads-b so yes, I knew the conditions at all 4 airports.

I have a license to learn and that's what I'm doing. Maybe I should bump my personal minimums.
As far as night flying, Im fine with it, I've flown 16 of my 90hrs at night. I just would rather save night flying for when I have my instrument rating.

We live, we learn. I will not let this happen again.
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Those conditions are up to an hour old. While that might be better than nothing, lots can happen in an hour, and you're not as well informed as you think.

Fog is a particular risk as it can be widespread.
 
Your instructor cared enough to ask about the situation or the office beat him up about his 'risky' ex student. If he took a more gentle approach - how was the flight, tell me about the return, etc., you would be telling us about this great instructor caring about former students.

If one of my students, or low time ex, came back just above min fuel I too would wonder if it was luck or great instruction :).
 
Re: My instructor nagged me because..

Don't take it as an insult. The guy is looking out for you. Stay humble and take the advice of the ones with more experience than you. You will stay alive that way.

Any time I remotely think I may have less than a full fat hour of fuel, I stop.
 
I can read this thread and believe that the CFI in question was both well-intentioned AND heavy handed in how he handled the situation.

One of the things that is often said about a risk-tolerant pilot who comes to grief is "It wasn't this cowboy's first rodeo." Risk tolerance is built up in increments, over time. On this flight, you flew the DA-20 down to 5 gal to avoid night flying. That may have been a reasonable decision. BTW, how does the FBO handle fuel out? Some places pinch pennies and give you a hassle on reimbursements -- I heard of some that only reimburse at the wholesale per-gal. price they pay at their home airport. It discourages stopping for fuel and also cross countries -- they see their business model as local training only.

Anyway, what do you plan to do the next time? Will you get some more instruction time in the interim (whether with this CFI or another) to become comfortable at night? Will you become more familiar with your route, to see where you might duck in for a quick 5 gallons without it taking too long? Or will you skip the fuel stop again next time, maybe to beat an approaching weather front rather than nightfall? Next time will you plan on landing with only legal minimum fuel, since it worked out for you this time? These are the kind of legitimate concerns I believe the instructor has in mind -- none of which is to say that he raised his concerns with you in an effective way.

So now what does the CFI (or the club/FBO) do? They keep an eye on things, to see if this was a one-time instance or a pattern of growing risk-tolerance. Will you be comfortable with that if you continue to rent from this FBO?

Is the CFI only an instructor or does he also own the plane(s)? It might explain some of his motivation, too.
 
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I think he was looking out for you, nobody wants to see a low time pilot run out of gas, especially his former CFI! :eek: :D
I plan an hour reserve on every flight, usually more if I can take the extra weight and or the weather isn't great. I once landed with at night with 7 gallons in my 182 after a 5 hour cross country, my butt was puckered up the entire last 1/2 hour of the trip! Being young and foolish, I pressed on and landed safely at my home base with the needles bouncing off the E on both tanks! :mad2::mad2:
My advice, not that you asked, is to get a little more night time so you are more comfortable and up your reserves to at least an hour. :D
Your CFI is trying to look out for you and may have approached you the wrong way, but I think his heart is in the right place.
 
Re: My instructor nagged me because..

These forums have a self-selection bias. We never hear from dead pilots, just from ones that are still living. So, we get a thread titled 'My instructor nagged me' , not one titled 'I died by running out of gas.'

Not a criticism of anyone. Just a comment on the way forums can distract us from something that matters more.
 
Re: My instructor nagged me because..

MarcoDA40 said:
So I went on a 2 day trip from TTA (Sanford, NC) to FTY (Atlanta, GA). I left on Sunday at 6am, stopped by GMU (Greenville, SC) to fuel up and have some breakfast before heading to FTY. All went great, had an awesome trip and met some awesome and super helpful people at the FBO. On Monday around 6:30PM, I topped off and headed back home to TTA.
I have ForeFlight on my iPad mini and had a borrowed ADS-B receiver. I checked the weather and re-checked the weather as I always do, I leaned out my engine properly and was carefully monitoring my fuel throughout the whole flight. In other words, I was ABSOLUTELY aware of winds aloft, any weather ahead, estimated time en route and my fuel burn. I even contacted Flight Watch about 1/3 of the way into my return trip home.

Well, I make it home, secure the plane, sit in the FBO with my girlfriend for a little bit to relax my legs and then I happily go on my way for a good night of rest.

I get a call from my instructor the next day and he tells me(in a passive aggressive tone) that I had only landed with 5 gallons left(I rent from the school I trained at). I told him I was aware and I didn't stop to fill up because I'd rather not fly at night unless I absolutely have to. He kept saying that "I was cutting it too close" that I "didnt know if winds would change or there was a problem at the airport and couldnt land" (There are 4 airports within a 10 minute flight from my base airport that i could easily fly to).
Me typing this probably doesnt sound too bad but the way he approached the issue and the tone he had kinda bothered me..

I got my PPL 4 months ago and I have logged about 40 hours in those last 4 months. I'm still a rookie pilot in my own eyes, but to call me and in a way insult my decision making or making me look like I fly reckless to the owners of the school is just not okay with me.
I landed with 45 minutes left in the tank, I feel more comfortable not flying at night. I had virtually unlimited resources keeping track of any changing weather(foreflight and ads-b).
I called the owners the next day and told them I was well aware of my fuel, and wouldnt have had put myself and the airplane in jeopardy. They said that the instructor was the one to make a fuss about it, but thanks for calling them and showing that I care.

Am I in the wrong?
Is it okay for him to call me and essentially B*%ch me out?
In the other hand, I understand his concern but maybe approach me different?
I still think I didnt make a "wrong decision" but please chime in..

:dunno:

Edit: I started changing the subject and we had a 30 minute conversation about flying and his new students, etc..
I'm not mad at him, but I just felt like he was giving me a hard time without knowing all of the facts.

Once again, if I am wrong, I am wrong :dunno:
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Who was PIC on the flight? You or your old CFI?
 
StinkBug said:
Sounds to me like you need to start refueling the plane when you land, that way nobody can ***** about landing with legal reserves.
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:lol: Definitely this

At least he didn't approach you in the FBO in front of a bunch of people. My private instructor was one that cared like yours did and would have probably done the same thing. Could he have gone about it more tactfully? Yeah probably. This is one of those situations where everyone is gonna have their own opinion on how much gas to carry, but they are just that, opinions. You landed with a legal amount. Period. According to the reg, you only have to plan to arrive at the airport and then fly for 30 minutes at normal cruise given the forecasted weather. You could land with 5 minutes of fuel in the tank technically. Would that be smart? Heck no!

Carry extra gas in case of unexpected headwinds? Carry extra gas in case of a go-around? The reasons for carrying extra gas are endless. That's up to you to decide.

My Opinion: In my normal day to day flying we rarely fly less than 5 hours, so I am ok being in the seat of a GA plane for 4 hours+. Eventually, carrying extra contingency fuel eats into my available time en-route. Am I careless and reckless? I don't believe so. Have I landed VFR with 35 minutes in the tank? Yes, and yeah it was slightly uncomfortable for me. But it was what I planned for and even further verified that my fuel planning method works. I am always monitoring winds and have the nearest airport in mind if I have to make a fuel stop. While I am in cruise in between sight-seeing I am always verifying fuel numbers. Fuel minimums are like weather minimums, there are legal limits, but everyone should develop their own.

http://www.flyingmag.com/rules-and-fuel?page=0,0
 
I think that all people (especially pilots) have a bias towards overconfidence in themselves and to ignore the possibilities of things not going as planned. Because the consequences of errors in aviation are so severe, we have to always err to the side that feels overly conservative. Try to make every flight in a way that makes you feel as if you're being more careful than you really need to be.
 
MarcoDA40 said:
No, I will not push the envelope. If I could have done something different, then yes, I would have gotten fuel. And as far as conditions at other airports around me? I had foreflight hooked up I ads-b so yes, I knew the conditions at all 4 airports.

I have a license to learn and that's what I'm doing. Maybe I should bump my personal minimums.
As far as night flying, Im fine with it, I've flown 16 of my 90hrs at night. I just would rather save night flying for when I have my instrument rating.

We live, we learn. I will not let this happen again.
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Do you now think your decision was wrong? Given the facts you presented, what was wrong with your decision?
 
So you burn 8 gph and landed with 5? He was just calling to say "legal isn't always safe and safe isn't always legal", think about what you are doing and if you haven't yet dipped the tanks after a flight you sometime might....

This is a very common accident that can be one go around or miss-managed red knob away
 
MAKG1 said:
Those conditions are up to an hour old. While that might be better than nothing, lots can happen in an hour, and you're not as well informed as you think.

Fog is a particular risk as it can be widespread.
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The amazing thing about ADS-B is it tells you how old they are. The only place I get an hour old Wx report is from a towered field. The non towered ones update much more frequently.

I don't think the OP did anything wrong, I don't think he needs to change his habits, and by reading through this thread, I swear some of you would run off in hysterics at the sight of a ladybug.
 
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EdFred said:
Tell your instructor you know who you AREN'T going to do your instrument training with. Sounds like someone who still feels the need to boss people around.
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Probably for the best since this kind of attitude about fuel management has no place in instrument flying.
 
If your plans showed landing with 5 gallons it isn't an issue. With the da20 or c150 you do need to be conservative because you can't switch tanks once you run dry. Landing with 5 gallons remaining did feel different at first, compared to landing with 10-15 in a c172 or c182 which is pretty much the same thing.

Do they have a fuel stick for the da20 you fly or do you top off before each flight?
 
I took my family on a short trip in a rental 172 before the ink dried on my certificate. Many mistakes were made that day(and night) and I swore I'd never let them happen again. I have not made those same mistakes, just a few different ones since then. I learn from my own and others mistakes almost daily. You will too.

We built our plane. It has two 30 gal tanks. I installed float senders as well as a fuel flow transducer that I calibrated. On a family trip to Florida, I have ran one tank to 5 gallons and the other to 7 gallons remaining on a 687 nm/4.5 hr trip. I am comfortable with that in MY plane that I know well during day vfr with on-board wx. I would not try that in a rental or friend's plane.

Stick on here, ask questions, keep building those hours and have a lot of fun. See you at Triple Tree SC00 7000' grass strip.
 
ja_user said:
So you burn 8 gph and landed with 5? He was just calling to say "legal isn't always safe and safe isn't always legal", think about what you are doing and if you haven't yet dipped the tanks after a flight you sometime might....

This is a very common accident that can be one go around or miss-managed red knob away
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If everything the OP says is true, it appears he was very conscientious about his fuel state. In this case I would think legal was safe. In fact, he exceeded the legal requirement . He wanted to avoid flying at night, and he did so in a safe manner.

The CFI might rightfully question a former student low time pilot, but when given the explanation , I don't know what his problem is.
 
MarcoDA40 said:
No, I will not push the envelope. If I could have done something different, then yes, I would have gotten fuel. And as far as conditions at other airports around me? I had foreflight hooked up I ads-b so yes, I knew the conditions at all 4 airports.

I have a license to learn and that's what I'm doing. Maybe I should bump my personal minimums.
As far as night flying, Im fine with it, I've flown 16 of my 90hrs at night. I just would rather save night flying for when I have my instrument rating.

We live, we learn. I will not let this happen again.
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What realistic scenarios has anyone presented that makes you doubt your decision making process?
 
Does the FBO have any operating rules regarding fuel minimums? I know some rental outfits recommend landing with a 1 hour minimum and others require it in their rental agreement.
 
According to AOPA,
24.5 gal (24 gal usable)
147 lb (144 lb usable)
 
Years ago, when I was about a 90 hr PP, I flew a planned CC that would have left me over an hour reserve at my destination... I found myself in a remote area, with no airport options and fuel gauges bouncing on the E... Made it okay but when I refueled I had put every bit of the documented usable fuel in that plane... (the tanks were virtually empty!) Could have been a submission in FLYING's "I Learned About Flying From That"
 
For VFR operations there is NO requirement to land with ANY fuel in the tanks.
 
flyingron said:
For VFR operations there is NO requirement to land with ANY fuel in the tanks.
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True...And every year, many of them do. Unfortunately, many of them do not "land" at an airport. :rolleyes:

I side with those that say the OP's instructor (albeit maybe a little heavy handed) gave him a bit of a verbal spanking and then said "Go forth and sin no more". :D
 
flyingron said:
For VFR operations there is NO requirement to land with ANY fuel in the tanks.
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The FAA VFR reg is about planning, but most of us would have various other requirements about not running out of fuel. Really, none at all?

If you're being a literalist, there is also no reg against running out of fuel at 500 feet over open water. That doesn't make it any less stupid.

Would you really argue that there is nothing wrong with landing with empty tanks? Do you think an inspector would agree with you? If intentional (including not landing early when it is determined in flight that it will be close), it seems like a pretty good case for 14 CFR 91.13.

Landing on fumes is a sign of poor planning. One should never be satisfied with such a ****-poor operation.
 
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I once landed with the day VFR planning minimum of 30 minutes fuel in the tanks. I didn't like the way that felt, so I plan for at least an hour reserve since then. I don't see it as careless or reckless to land with only 45 minutes' worth of fuel on board if there are known good places to refuel short of your destination, you're keeping track of your time aloft and ETA, and you're willing to make the extra fuel stop if it becomes necessary. I think the important thing is to be able to recognize when a safe outcome to the flight is about to become uncertain, and willing to do what is needed to remedy that.
 
Henning said:
5 gallons in a DA-40 takes you a long way.
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This.

My only issue with flying that low on fuel in my DA20 is that the gauge has a nifty pucker factor feature, once you get close to a quarter tank of fuel it'll swing in the yellow caution area back and forth a bit which compels you to put it on the ground sooner than later. Once I'm near ~6gal or so I make sure I'm awfully close to the field.
 
MAKG1 said:
The FAA VFR reg is about planning, but most of us would have various other requirements about not running out of fuel. Really, none at all?

Would you really argue that there is nothing wrong with landing with empty tanks? Do you think an inspector would agree with you? If intentional (including not landing early when it is determined in flight that it will be close), it seems like a pretty good case for 14 CFR 91.13.

Landing on fumes is a sign of poor planning. One should never be satisfied with such a ****-poor operation.
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I think that using some of the reserve fuel can be acceptable depending on conditions and what outs are available, but using all of it would definitely make me question my pre-flight planning!
 
I'm a little confused here. OP said he was burning 8gph and landed with 5 left. If .5 of that was unusable that's 4.5 usable.

But 45 minutes is 3/4 of an hour and 3/4 of 8 is 6, so he'd need 6.5 of total fuel to have 6 usable and thus have a 45 minute reserve.

My math says he had 33.75m reserve.
 
Greebo said:
I'm a little confused here. OP said he was burning 8gph and landed with 5 left. If .5 of that was unusable that's 4.5 usable.

But 45 minutes is 3/4 of an hour and 3/4 of 8 is 6, so he'd need 6.5 of total fuel to have 6 usable and thus have a 45 minute reserve.

My math says he had 33.75m reserve.
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Since fuel gauges, indicators in tanks, calibrated stick etc are all designed to indicate the amount of usable fuel, the OP probably didn't think he would have to specify that he was talking about usable fuel remaining.
 
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