MVFR . . .

Terry M - 3CK (Chicago)

Terry M - 3CK (Chicago)

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Terry
Been discussing IR training based at an airport with no approaches.

One suggestion was fly the approach at nearby delta KDPA breakout and get SVFR back to home drone.

I noticed today that KDPA was reporting MVFR. 10SM BKN 013 BKN 037 OVC somewhere higher.

But DPA is in congested airspace. So even though we had visibility, don't you need at least 1,500 to be VFR? 1,000 over congested area and 500 below the clouds?

I memorized 1,000 feet and 3 for VFR decades ago, but I've never flown it. Is that even legal?
 
Terry M - 3CK (Chicago) said:
Been discussing IR training based at an airport with no approaches.

One suggestion was fly the approach at nearby delta KDPA breakout and get SVFR back to home drone.

I noticed today that KDPA was reporting MVFR. 10SM BKN 013 BKN 037 OVC somewhere higher.

But DPA is in congested airspace. So even though we had visibility, don't you need at least 1,500 to be VFR? 1,000 over congested area and 500 below the clouds?

I memorized 1,000 feet and 3 for VFR decades ago, but I've never flown it. Is that even legal?
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Class G VFR day is 1 mile and clear of clouds. You can do a lot of seemingly dumb but entirely legal things down low.
 
a) Except as provided in appendix D, section 3, of this part, special VFR operations may be conducted under the weather minimums and requirements of this section, instead of those contained in § 91.155, below 10,000 feet MSL within the airspace contained by the upward extension of the lateral boundaries of the controlled airspace designated to the surface for an airport.

Your SVFR idea won’t work. Once you leave E or D or the inner a ring B or C there is no special VFR.
 
Terry M - 3CK (Chicago) said:
Been discussing IR training based at an airport with no approaches.

One suggestion was fly the approach at nearby delta KDPA breakout and get SVFR back to home drone.

I noticed today that KDPA was reporting MVFR. 10SM BKN 013 BKN 037 OVC somewhere higher.

But DPA is in congested airspace. So even though we had visibility, don't you need at least 1,500 to be VFR? 1,000 over congested area and 500 below the clouds?

I memorized 1,000 feet and 3 for VFR decades ago, but I've never flown it. Is that even legal?
Click to expand...

91.119 begins with the clause "Except when necessary for takeoff or landing".
 
@Htaylor @iamtheari its class E there 700 agl and up.

Playing along, E is 3 miles + 1 (above) 5 (below) 2 (horizontal) if I understand the question.

But I'd have to be 1,000 feet above structures and 500 below the clouds, so aren't I right I need ceilings 1,500+ to be legal?

Below 700 . . . . Do people just view it as non congested so they're 500 above structures, clear of clouds and 1 mile?

It's 8 miles from DPA to 06C. Lots of cranes and towers around there too.
 
<1200’ AGL is Class G
1SM visibility
Clear of clouds

Chicago ground is about 600-800’ so I would just check the VFR sectional and follow the lowest safe altitude there.

Generally speaking 1600-1700’ MSL will be fine and I wouldn’t feel comfortable going lower than that in that area. That is already 500’ above people, I guess technically if you fly on top of a tall pole you might be breaking the rules so you just around around the tall objects, so good visibility and/or using the terrain function on your foreflight will help.
 
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Terry M - 3CK (Chicago) said:
Been discussing IR training based at an airport with no approaches.

One suggestion was fly the approach at nearby delta KDPA breakout and get SVFR back to home drone.

I noticed today that KDPA was reporting MVFR. 10SM BKN 013 BKN 037 OVC somewhere higher.

But DPA is in congested airspace. So even though we had visibility, don't you need at least 1,500 to be VFR? 1,000 over congested area and 500 below the clouds?

I memorized 1,000 feet and 3 for VFR decades ago, but I've never flown it. Is that even legal?
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What airport are you going to? Is it within DPA’s Surface Area? I don’t see one, but not every Airport is charted. If it’s outside of DPA’s D, you aren’t going to be able to get to it SVFR. You can just get out of DPA’s D SFVR. After that, basic VFR minima are going to apply. All the is it night or day rules and all the congested airspace or not and FAR 91.119 stuff is going to apply.
 
@luvflyin its Schaumburg / 06C. I think the suggestion was, shoot an approach to DPA to get below.

Then if not VFR, but good vis, try SVFR to cancel the IFR flight plan and legally exit the Delta airspace.

It's 8 miles DPA to 06C. Once I exit the Delta, though, is it legal is what I'm wondering #1.

@mandm says G below 1,200 but when I look at the sectional (and my memory back to primary training) the shading looks to me like G starts below 700 all around Chicago. There's shading that colors all the Chicago area in the E/controlled airspace at 700 zone (instead of shading for each airport the whole Chicago area falls into this category).

So are the few folks that have told me how they worked around no approaches at 06C telling me wink/wink nod/nod SVFR to the G then 1 mile clear of clouds home actually following M&Ms view and likely actually in E space illegally (if the don't have the cloud clearance).

Is there some other nuance I'm missing?

I'm confident the E starts at 700 AGL around here under ORDs wedding cake. I'm personally of the opinion it's pretty populated between DPA and 06C so you'd need 1,000 feet above the ground (right?).

So if you're actually in G you are below 700 feet. Ignoring safety for a moment (I don't know the area well enough to be that low with no out above), you're at least blowing the 1,000 over congested areas, right?
 
All right. Playing around on Foreflught (I'm a novice) looks like if I'm rolling around at 1,500 MSL (700 agl) there's 1 tower along the route at 1,000 msl.

TPA at 06C is 1,600. If good visibility and I really focused on learning those landmarks down low, I guess 1,500 could work. Seems dangerous to me, but I don't have the experience or local knowledge to feel comfortable down low in weather. But I can see how folks would.
 
Terry M - 3CK (Chicago) said:
@luvflyin its Schaumburg / 06C. I think the suggestion was, shoot an approach to DPA to get below.

Then if not VFR, but good vis, try SVFR to cancel the IFR flight plan and legally exit the Delta airspace.

It's 8 miles DPA to 06C. Once I exit the Delta, though, is it legal is what I'm wondering #1.

@mandm says G below 1,200 but when I look at the sectional (and my memory back to primary training) the shading looks to me like G starts below 700 all around Chicago. There's shading that colors all the Chicago area in the E/controlled airspace at 700 zone (instead of shading for each airport the whole Chicago area falls into this category).

So are the few folks that have told me how they worked around no approaches at 06C telling me wink/wink nod/nod SVFR to the G then 1 mile clear of clouds home actually following M&Ms view and likely actually in E space illegally (if the don't have the cloud clearance).

Is there some other nuance I'm missing?

I'm confident the E starts at 700 AGL around here under ORDs wedding cake. I'm personally of the opinion it's pretty populated between DPA and 06C so you'd need 1,000 feet above the ground (right?).

So if you're actually in G you are below 700 feet. Ignoring safety for a moment (I don't know the area well enough to be that low with no out above), you're at least blowing the 1,000 over congested areas, right?
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What’s congested is not explicitly defined anywhere that I’ve seen. It’s been the subject of threads here before. One school of thought is, if it’s yellow it’s congested. If you got into some enforcement action with the FAA, I don’t think you’d be able to convince them you did this uncongested. You could say it was necessary for landing as in “Except when necessary for takeoff or landing…” in 91.119, but I’m not putting my bet down on you’d get away with it. In the BKN 013 example in your OP, where the breaks are is probably the key factor.
 
As you noted, the SVFR reg doesn’t exist in a vacuum. Other regs require compliance as well.

How far you can go with “except when necessary for takeoff and landing” is a really good question…and the answer is probably “it’s not a problem until it’s a problem.” I’ve never seen any official guidance or violation history on that.

Keep in mind that we used to shoot an approach at Midway and get an SVFR to go to Miegs (two of them, actually—one to leave Midway’s airspace and one to go into Miegs.) I’m not entirely convinced that was legal for other reasons, but we did it for years. But that was also a different time.
 
MauleSkinner said:
As you noted, the SVFR reg doesn’t live in a vacuum. Other regs require compliance as well.

How far you can go with “except when necessary for takeoff and landing” is a really good question…and the answer is probably “it’s not a problem until it’s a problem.” I’ve never seen any official guidance or violation history on that.

Keep in mind that we used to shoot an approach at Midway and get an SVFR to go to Miegs (two of them, actually—one to leave Midway’s airspace and one to go into Miegs.) I’m not entirely convinced that was legal for other reasons, but we did it for years. But that was also a different time.
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Was that before or after Alphabet Soup Airspace?
 
Terry M - 3CK (Chicago) said:
I'm personally of the opinion it's pretty populated between DPA and 06C so you'd need 1,000 feet above the ground (right?).

So if you're actually in G you are below 700 feet. Ignoring safety for a moment (I don't know the area well enough to be that low with no out above), you're at least blowing the 1,000 over congested areas, right?
Click to expand...

Yes, but you are doing that for the purpose of landing. Probably a gray area, but I could see it being interpreted as OK with regard to § 91.119.
 
MauleSkinner said:
How far you can go with “except when necessary for takeoff and landing” is a really good question…and the answer is probably “it’s not a problem until it’s a problem.” I’ve never seen any official guidance or violation history on that
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I believe one FAA action was taken against a pilot going under a bridge when landing in a floatplane, the reasoning being that it wasn't "necessary" to land there, and that the pilot should have landed away from the bridge and taxied if he needed to be under the bridge. Basically, that implies that the FAA can determine the meaning of "necessary" and burden the pilot to prove that there was no other option.
 
Terry M - 3CK (Chicago) said:
@luvflyin based on a Chicago Tribune article I just found they added a GPS 36 approach in late 1998/1999.

No approaches prior to that.
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Meigs had a VOR/DME-A approach before the GPS 36. I don't know when it was created, but I remember using the VOR/DME-A before I was flying planes with IFR GPS.

Meigs VOR DME A.jpg
 
Taking off or landing under any objects is a no no, even for a seaplane.

This could be a written question to the FAA on what their desired action items are in these cases.

Class G gives you up to 1200’ AGL, when the magenta line comes in and reduces this to 700’ AGL, this is to protect IFR traffic inbound on an approach. I guess technically you could reduce your traffic pattern to 500’ AGL or 700’ AGL, you should be familiar with the airspace to know if any buildings or objects are sticking up high enough to cause any concern.

My opinion would be that once you are in the magenta shading that this is for purpose of take-off or landing so you don’t need to worry about your height above people/object.

Another thing to note that for VFR flight in take-off / landing, clouds should be at least 1000’ AGL otherwise the airport is IFR. I guess the question to the FAA is, when inbound for a magenta shaded airport with a ceiling of 1000’, what altitude range can the VFR aircraft legally fly? I’d probably go with 0’-700’ AGL, where 700’-1000’ would be breaking the cloud clearance regs and that 300’ gives both VFR and IFR traffic an opportunity to move out the way if on a collision course.

I’m a newer pilot so take that with a grain of salt.
 
luvflyin said:
Yeah, there has to be that, and communication. But they don’t usually do it unless there is an Approach.
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True…and I can’t think of any others that didn’t, unless maybe there were some in Alaska.
 
iamtheari said:
Class G VFR day is 1 mile and clear of clouds. You can do a lot of seemingly dumb but entirely legal things down low.
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After flying in Alaska I understand this though, the mountains make their own weather, each are drastic from the next, so the only way to fly is clear of clouds. If you wait for a clear day, you’ll be waiting a long time.
 
iamtheari said:
Class G VFR day is 1 mile and clear of clouds. You can do a lot of seemingly dumb but entirely legal things down low.
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You can also do a lot of dumb but legal things in the clouds under IFR. Its simply a matter of training and judgement.
 
luvflyin said:
Yeah, there has to be that, and communication. But they don’t usually do it unless there is an Approach.
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Isn’t class E at the surface, dashed magenta line, a control zone? It has to have WX reported, but who are you communicating with and are you required to communicate with anyone?
 
Clip4 said:
Isn’t class E at the surface, dashed magenta line, a control zone? It has to have WX reported, but who are you communicating with and are you required to communicate with anyone?
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No, it's a "surface area of controlled airspace designated for an airport." Control zones ceased to exist when the alphabet airspace was added. Control zones were explicitly depicted on the sectional whether by themselves or colocated with an airport traffic area (which wasn't charted and wasn't controlled airspace of its own), or inside ARSAs, TCAs, and TRSAs. Now class E surface areas behave like control zones, as do the surface areas of Class B, C, and D (the control zone in B and C got slightly larger in the process).

At the same time the dashed-T depiction of no SVFR got replaced with the words NO SVFR in the airport data block. All of these ended to be inside of class B airspace now and hence there wasn't any dashed-anything depiction of them.
 
Clip4 said:
Isn’t class E at the surface, dashed magenta line, a control zone? It has to have WX reported, but who are you communicating with and are you required to communicate with anyone?
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They aren’t called Control Zones any more. They are Surface Areas. Pretty much just a renaming, the rules are basically the same. The communication thing is a little different though. They always required weather reporting and communication. But the communication didn’t have to be directly to ATC via radio and you didn’t always have to communicate. Just be able to if needed. Like to get a Clearance, cancel an IFR flight plan and get an altimeter setting. Relay through Flight Service Station was, and is, one way. The plot thickens with Class D Surface areas however. Those require radio communication with the Tower.
 
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flyingron said:
No, it's a "surface area of controlled airspace designated for an airport." Control zones ceased to exist when the alphabet airspace was added. Control zones were explicitly depicted on the sectional whether by themselves or colocated with an airport traffic area (which wasn't charted and wasn't controlled airspace of its own), or inside ARSAs, TCAs, and TRSAs. Now class E surface areas behave like control zones, as do the surface areas of Class B, C, and D (the control zone in B and C got slightly larger in the process).

At the same time the dashed-T depiction of no SVFR got replaced with the words NO SVFR in the airport data block. All of these ended to be inside of class B airspace now and hence there wasn't any dashed-anything depiction of them.
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Yeah I’ve been looking at the Hong Kong airspace and I don’t really understand it. Appears to be 2 Charlie’s, I’m guessing Ground-2000 is class C for the airport and then G-9000 is control zones.
 
mandm said:
Yeah I’ve been looking at the Hong Kong airspace and I don’t really understand it. Appears to be 2 Charlie’s, I’m guessing Ground-2000 is class C for the airport and then G-9000 is control zones.
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Thing about Classes of airspace is they are a set of rules. In this Class ya gotta do this and in that Class ya gotta do that. Because in the US, B and C is always centered around an airport doesn’t mean other countries don’t want to apply B and C rules in other areas. In the US A is only the airspace above 18,000 feet. Other countries have A in areas much lower than that and not necessarily covering the entire country
 
luvflyin said:
Thing about Classes of airspace is they are a set of rules. In this Class ya gotta do this and in that Class ya gotta do that. Because in the US, B and C is always centered around an airport doesn’t mean other countries don’t want to apply B and C rules in other areas. In the US A is only the airspace above 18,000 feet. Other countries have A in areas much lower than that and not necessarily covering the entire country
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Other countries have different use of "Control Zone" as well. The UK makes it roughly the same as our class B. Note that ICAO uses the classes to determine the SERVICES provided, not the rules for entry. Class A at Heathrow used to go to the ground, but now it's only class D, but you need a clearance to enter the encompassing control zone.

Of course, then we can start talking about MBZs in Australia.
 
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