Multiple endorsements at once

M

Mark D

Filing Flight Plan
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Bothell, WA
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Crash812
I am a <100 hour private pilot and want to get my CFI.
I understand I can get my CFI without IFR endorsement, although that will limit what I can do with my Commercial endorsement.
My plan is to hit All three IFR, CFI, and Commercial at once.
I'm struggling with how many flight hours each requires.
Commercial requires a minimum of 250 flight hours, with certain specifics fulfilled. Fairly easy to follow this one.

IFR requires 50 hrs Cross country (I'm assuming any I already have apply toward that), then 40 hrs of IFR time, either simulated, or actual in aircraft, but under that I see 15 hrs Instrument flight training, and 3 hrs instrument training. Would this mean only 18 hours actual flight time with instructor as the minimum? The difference would be practice on my own? I'm quite a bit lost on how much actual instructor, and in airplane time I need as a minimum on this one.

CFI, what actual flight time is required. Looks like more ground school than anything.

I've poured through the FAR's and various flight school websites and all are different.

The goal with the CFI is to teach our kids in our plane. Maybe earn a little gas money, and flight hours teaching others.
 
Step 1. Learn the difference between the following terms:
A. Certificate
B. Rating
C. Endorsement
 
For your instrument you need 15 hours with a CFII, 3 of which to prepare you for the checkride. The 3 hours you got for your private - assuming he was a -II, count towards this. So you can get it with just 12 hours of additional flight training with a -II. The 25 hours you can fly with a safety pilot if you want.
 
Mark D said:
I've poured through the FAR's and various flight school websites and all are different.
Click to expand...

Just use the CFRs (FAR). Various websites have bad or out of date information on them. If you’re using websites ALWAYS find the current CFR reference.

You’ll have to do it anyway when you’re instructing. Or writing future bad instructional websites. :)

“Hitting them all at the same time” really isn’t accurate, you need certain things before others and some stuff crosses over. Example 14 CFR 61.183(c).

14 CFR Part 61 is going to become your bedtime reading for a while. :)

If you have specific questions, feel free to ask. You’re not quite into “deep dive” mode yet.
 
You need the Commercial first, to get the CFI. There are no "total hours" requirements for the CFI.

Although you don't technically need an IR to get the Commercial, the Commercial does require the 250 hours, so one might argue that you might as well spend some of that time getting the IR which is a really useful thing to do and have anyway.
Therefore, you'll find that the conventional wisdom is to do: IR, then Comm, then CFI.

I can think of two ways to "save time" in the process: one is that the Commercial requires a "long solo cross-country" with at least three stops. (Look that one up!) Some people choose to knock this out before starting the Commercial training, by throwing in an extra stop or two on a long trip they were planning to take solo anyway. Then it's one less thing to worry about later.

The other thing you can do is to ask your Commercial instructor if you can do some of the training from the right seat, since part of CFI training is getting used to doing all the Commercial maneuvers from that weird-at-first perspective.
 
Mark D said:
I am a <100 hour private pilot and want to get my CFI.
I understand I can get my CFI without IFR endorsement, although that will limit what I can do with my Commercial endorsement.
My plan is to hit All three IFR, CFI, and Commercial at once.
I'm struggling with how many flight hours each requires.
Commercial requires a minimum of 250 flight hours, with certain specifics fulfilled. Fairly easy to follow this one.

IFR requires 50 hrs Cross country (I'm assuming any I already have apply toward that), then 40 hrs of IFR time, either simulated, or actual in aircraft, but under that I see 15 hrs Instrument flight training, and 3 hrs instrument training. Would this mean only 18 hours actual flight time with instructor as the minimum? The difference would be practice on my own? I'm quite a bit lost on how much actual instructor, and in airplane time I need as a minimum on this one.

CFI, what actual flight time is required. Looks like more ground school than anything.

I've poured through the FAR's and various flight school websites and all are different.

The goal with the CFI is to teach our kids in our plane. Maybe earn a little gas money, and flight hours teaching others.
Click to expand...
There are so many ways to skin this cat ...

Here’s what I did. After passing the private checkride I built my time as a private pilot. When I was close to the 200 hour mark I started studying for advanced training. I structured the study time by writing a training syllabus with lesson plans for private, instrument and commercial. Then I started flying full time for my training. Two flights a day. In the morning my instructor would teach me the lesson I wrote and in the afternoon I would hop in the right seat and teach him the same lesson. I flew every weekday and took weekends off. Took less than three months to go from private pilot to CFII. All done part 61. Everyone is different. Find what works for you. I saved a bunch of money by not paying for ground training. I can read and study on my own. Also the fast pace of training allowed me to progress quickly since I wasn’t repeating much from previous lessons. It’s really about what works for you but whatever path you choose you will find that if you own it and don’t expect to be spoon fed by the instructor you’ll save money and learn more. Good luck.
 
kath said:
I can think of two ways to "save time" in the process: one is that the Commercial requires a "long solo cross-country" with at least three stops. (Look that one up!) Some people choose to knock this out before starting the Commercial training, by throwing in an extra stop or two on a long trip they were planning to take solo anyway. Then it's one less thing to worry about later.
Click to expand...
Does the 990 NM ferry flight when I purchased my plane count even with a three day delay after the first 630 miles, for weather? Longest leg was 330 NM. Four landings total for the entire trip. I think I have that already covered!

SkyDog58 said:
Step 1. Learn the difference between the following terms:
A. Certificate
B. Rating
C. Endorsement
Click to expand...
I'm just beginning to look into all of this, so forgive my lack of proper language.
 
Mark D said:
Does the 990 NM ferry flight when I purchased my plane count even with a three day delay after the first 630 miles, for weather? Longest leg was 330 NM. Four landings total for the entire trip. I think I have that already covered!


I'm just beginning to look into all of this, so forgive my lack of proper language.
Click to expand...
The vocabulary should have been part of your private training.
 
Mark D said:
I'm just beginning to look into all of this, so forgive my lack of proper language.
Click to expand...

You’re fine. It’s just a reminder to refresh that knowledge because it applies heavily as you move on past the Private certificate. You won’t see those three legal terms used interchangeably in the regs.
 
Student, sport, recreational, private, commercial, ATP -- certificates
aircraft category/class/type, and instrument -- ratings

You need an instrument rating to be a CFI.
 
denverpilot said:
You’re fine. It’s just a reminder to refresh that knowledge because it applies heavily as you move on past the Private certificate. You won’t see those three legal terms used interchangeably in the regs.
Click to expand...

But it also can apply heavily to a private pilot. For instance here are my pilot credentials:
Certificate - Private Pilot
Ratings - ASEL, AMEL, ASES, Glider
Endorsements - Tailwheel, Complex, High Power

However I do believe that this is a knowledge area that is being under emphasized in training as I have seen several posters on here who confuse or do not understand these terms. Maybe it’s something that just isn’t considered important by those doing the training or testing.
 
SkyDog58 said:
But it also can apply heavily to a private pilot. For instance here are my pilot credentials:
Certificate - Private Pilot
Ratings - ASEL, AMEL, ASES, Glider
Endorsements - Tailwheel, Complex, High Power

However I do believe that this is a knowledge area that is being under emphasized in training as I have seen several posters on here who confuse or do not understand these terms. Maybe it’s something that just isn’t considered important by those doing the training or testing.
Click to expand...

Obviously I’m not on the “don’t care” side of that fence, but I can see it from here and understand why it’s not emphasized.

In the end a number of the items in the FAAs standards aren’t really an objective measure of whether the pilot can actually do those things. (Not in the CFR anyway, in the ACS, yes.) So quite a few people don’t care what you call the administrivia titles on things.

Little green credit card says Private Pilot, Airplane, Single-Engine Land, Instrument Pilot. They don’t care too much what the lawyers call those things.

But it is a surprise someone with any certificate wouldn’t at least kinda know them, even from an instructor who was super-lazy on teaching the topic.

It’s also one of those things that is in the regs that isn’t “written in blood”. The aircraft won’t fall out of the sky if you call it your “Pilot’s license” for the next 40 years after you earn the Certificate.

But...

Anyone planning on going for the CFI has to know it, if they’re going to trench it. At least well enough to open a FAR/AIM and discuss it.

Doubtful any inspector is going to sadly tell a CFI that because they didn’t cover this topic well enough, the pilot they signed off, crashed and died though.

There’s important, and then there’s really important. :)
 
Mark D,
Just a comment to your plan. One of the most frustrating things I deal with as a flight instructor is the 100 hour pilot who thinks an instrument rating is easy.
 
Clip4 said:
Mark D,
Just a comment to your plan. One of the most frustrating things I deal with as a flight instructor is the 100 hour pilot who thinks an instrument rating is easy.
Click to expand...

LOL. I hadn’t thought of that but I bet you do see that quite a bit!

In many ways the Instrument rating is harder than the Private certificate.
 
Mark D said:
Does the 990 NM ferry flight when I purchased my plane count even with a three day delay after the first 630 miles, for weather? Longest leg was 330 NM. Four landings total for the entire trip. I think I have that already covered!
Click to expand...

Just remember that PIC does not equal solo. If you were by yourself on that flight, great. If not, no go.
 
denverpilot said:
You’re fine. It’s just a reminder to refresh that knowledge because it applies heavily as you move on past the Private certificate. You won’t see those three legal terms used interchangeably in the regs.
Click to expand...
Not understanding the differences is also the source of about 80% of the confusion people have about the flight time logging rules. "How can I log PIC in one if I'm not 'rated' for tailwheels?"
 
dmspilot said:
Student, sport, recreational, private, commercial, ATP -- certificates
aircraft category/class/type, and instrument -- ratings

You need an instrument rating to be a CFI.
Click to expand...

Note that ratings apply to both the pilot certificate (commercial, lets say) AND the CFI certificate.

You need an instrument rating on your commercial pilot certificate to get a CFI certificate.
You need an instrument rating on your CFI certificate to provide instruction for those seeking an instrument rating (on their pilot certificate).
 
SkyDog58 said:
But it also can apply heavily to a private pilot. For instance here are my pilot credentials:
Certificate - Private Pilot
Ratings - ASEL, AMEL, ASES, Glider
Endorsements - Tailwheel, Complex, High Power
Click to expand...

Certificate - PP
Ratings - ASEL
Endorsements - none
But I can only exercise SP privileges on account of what I ain't got no medical. On the other hand, I don't need no steenken endorsement to fly a tailwheel aircraft.
 
As a long time aviation maintenance professional I frequently hear a similar mistake from many of my fellow mechanics. They will say that they have their A&P license. Nope. They have a Mechanic Certificate with Airframe and Powerplant ratings. I am hopeful that most know what they really have but in casual conversation they just call it the wrong thing. I am more forgiving though of someone calling their certificate a license than I am with the ones who conflate their certificate and their ratings as was the case with the guy who was adamant that he had both an airframe license and a powerplant license.
 
Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe said:
Certificate - PP
Ratings - ASEL
Endorsements - none
But I can only exercise SP privileges on account of what I ain't got no medical. On the other hand, I don't need no steenken endorsement to fly a tailwheel aircraft.
Click to expand...

Yep, as long as one had tailwheel PIC time before the requirement for an endorsement was required in 1991 they were grandfathered in.
 
Mark D said:
Does the 990 NM ferry flight when I purchased my plane count even with a three day delay after the first 630 miles, for weather? Longest leg was 330 NM. Four landings total for the entire trip. I think I have that already covered!


I'm just beginning to look into all of this, so forgive my lack of proper language.
Click to expand...

I believe it will count (if you flew it solo), but if your goal is to become a CFI, you should get into the habit of looking up the FARs yourself. Definition of cross country flights for the purpose of certificates or ratings are clearly spelled out in the regulations. The ones that we often argue over are those that are not clearly spelled out.
 
sarangan said:
I believe it will count (if you flew it solo), but if your goal is to become a CFI, you should get into the habit of looking up the FARs yourself. Definition of cross country flights for the purpose of certificates or ratings are clearly spelled out in the regulations. The ones that we often argue over are those that are not clearly spelled out.
Click to expand...
Not really. There have been some great arguments over things which are clearly spelled out. Try most any logging PIC argument. On another subject I just saw one recently (not here) where folks insisting a pure rental aircraft (not being used for instruction) required a 100-hour inspection because the aircraft was for hire started calling the folks with the correct answer names.
 
Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe said:
Certificate - PP
Ratings - ASEL
Endorsements - none
But I can only exercise SP privileges on account of what I ain't got no medical. On the other hand, I don't need no steenken endorsement to fly a tailwheel aircraft.
Click to expand...
Must be grandfather. :)
 
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