MSP Approach

Discussion in 'Change to my Frequency...' started by jordane93, Aug 29, 2018.

  1. jordane93

    jordane93 Touchdown! Greaser!

    Joined:
    Sep 9, 2013
    Messages:
    10,405
    Location:
    Long Island, NY

    Display name:
    Jordan
    Flew into MSP yesterday and heard the approach controller tell several airliners they were entering/exiting Class B airspace which I thought was weird. Maybe she was training? I’ve never heard any other MSP controller say this.
     
  2. mscard88

    mscard88 Touchdown! Greaser!

    Joined:
    Oct 1, 2015
    Messages:
    23,217
    Location:
    Alabama

    Display name:
    Mark
    Heard it on occasion at ATL years ago. ATC is required to say that if they vector you out of Class B.
     
    jordane93 likes this.
  3. Kritchlow

    Kritchlow Final Approach

    Joined:
    Dec 2, 2014
    Messages:
    7,173

    Display name:
    Kritchlow
    Often happens in MIA as well.
     
    jordane93 likes this.
  4. luvflyin

    luvflyin Touchdown! Greaser!

    Joined:
    May 8, 2015
    Messages:
    13,382
    Location:
    Vancouver, WA

    Display name:
    Luvflyin
    7−9−3. METHODS
    a. To the extent practical, clear large turbine engine-powered airplanes to/from the primary airport using altitudes and routes that avoid VFR corridors and airspace below the Class B airspace floor where VFR aircraft are operating.
    NOTE−
    Pilots operating in accordance with VFR are expected to advise ATC if compliance with assigned altitudes, headings, or routes will cause violation of any part of the CFR.
    b. Vector aircraft to remain in Class B airspace after entry. Inform the aircraft when leaving and reentering Class B airspace if it becomes necessary to extend the flight path outside Class B airspace for spacing.
    NOTE−
    14 CFR Section 91.131 states that “Unless otherwise authorized by ATC, each person operating a large turbine engine-powered airplane to or from a primary airport for which a Class B airspace area is designated must operate at or above the designated floors of the Class B airspace area while within the lateral limits of that area.” Such authorization should be the exception rather than the rule.
     
  5. luvflyin

    luvflyin Touchdown! Greaser!

    Joined:
    May 8, 2015
    Messages:
    13,382
    Location:
    Vancouver, WA

    Display name:
    Luvflyin
    It could be she was in training and paying attention to detail. It’s likely it isn’t the norm there and most controllers don’t follow the letter of the law there. It could also be that it recently become a thing there to do it and she is just the first you heard.
     
  6. RyanB

    RyanB Super Administrator Management Council Member PoA Supporter

    Joined:
    Jul 21, 2010
    Messages:
    14,790
    Location:
    Chattanooga, TN

    Display name:
    Ryan
    Interesting, I didn’t know that. I wouldn’t think that it would make any difference to flight crew being IFR.
     
  7. Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe

    Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

    Joined:
    Jun 7, 2008
    Messages:
    14,455
    Location:
    DXO124009

    Display name:
    Light and Sporty Guy
    Inside class B, ATC provides separation between all traffic.
    Outside class B, ATC only provides separation between IFR aircraft - you are on your own to not run down some doof flying VFR.
     
    mscard88 likes this.
  8. mscard88

    mscard88 Touchdown! Greaser!

    Joined:
    Oct 1, 2015
    Messages:
    23,217
    Location:
    Alabama

    Display name:
    Mark
    There ya go Ryan, a good simple explanation. :thumbsup:
     
    RyanB likes this.
  9. kayoh190

    kayoh190 Administrator Management Council Member PoA Supporter

    Joined:
    May 29, 2014
    Messages:
    4,010

    Display name:
    Kayoh@190
    This kind of thing became a hot topic at my current airline a few years ago, and we had issues with it at my prior airline as well. @luvflyin quoted 91.131, but for us there's also Ops Spec C077, that among other things talks about the manner in which we're supposed to execute visual approaches, and one of the requirements that was consistently being ignored is that once we're in the Bravo, we need to remain there.

    As an example of how we've been boning this up, I'll give you the one my company is constantly giving us crap about - the ILS to 12 in MIA. Here's the chart:

    http://155.178.201.160/d-tpp/1809/00257IL12.PDF

    If you're coming from the northeast, you'll end up on what's essentially a left downwind for 12. It's not uncommon for ATC to turn guys onto a base leg somewhere outside of PIANA (10.8 DME), and they'll be descending to 3000' at that point. They'll get the airport in sight and be cleared for the visual to 12. Since the pilots are hungry and there are a couple of pretty good Cuban joints in the terminal, the guy flying points the plane at VEPCO (or if he's *really* hungry, well inside it), notes that glideslope intercept at VEPCO is 2000' and starts bombing down to that altitude. Why in such a hurry to get down? Because the guy flying is thinking of sweet plantains and that cute Cuban chick at the register, so he wants to keep his speed up, and it's easier to dump a bunch of energy at the last minute from level flight, not a constant descent.

    Well this is all great except that it's entirely possible that the descent to 2000' is happening a good 10-15 miles from the runway, and the base of the Bravo outside of 10 miles is 3000'. Ooooops. And as the good @Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe said, they're now on their own to avoid running down some doof flying VFR. Fortunately Florida doesn't tend to have a lot of VFR traffic. :rolleyes::rolleyes: :D

    It seems to be hit or miss whether ATC even bothers to care. Every so often a controller will clear us for the visual with a restraint to be at or above 3000' until 10 DME, or sometimes I'll hear a comment about leaving the Bravo to another airplane. But I bet lots of planes are coming out the bottom and nobody says a word about it. Like I said earlier, until the last couple of years (at least at my company), nobody seemed to be aware of the rule, or didn't much care. But someone in Dallas finally got a bug up their *** about it, a weenie in a cubicle was told to do a study on the visuals into MIA, and they found that a large percentage of airplanes (not just ours) shooting visuals to 12 would pop out the bottom of the Bravo. So next thing you know there are posters in our crew rooms, additional slides in iPad distance learning modules, briefings in recurrent - everything they could do to get us to get our heads out of our asses and maybe take some time to follow the glideslope or (even better) a VNAV path from further out. Not just at MIA of course, but as good practice everywhere*. As you mentioned, since we're always IFR, flight crews aren't typically primed to think about airspace boundaries.


    *Pilots blindly bombing down to the FAF altitude when cleared for a visual can be a much bigger problem than simply airspace considerations, but that's a discussion for another thread.
     
  10. kayoh190

    kayoh190 Administrator Management Council Member PoA Supporter

    Joined:
    May 29, 2014
    Messages:
    4,010

    Display name:
    Kayoh@190
    Since denverpilot doesn't seem to be around, I took it upon myself to give an unnecessarily long one. :D
     
  11. luvflyin

    luvflyin Touchdown! Greaser!

    Joined:
    May 8, 2015
    Messages:
    13,382
    Location:
    Vancouver, WA

    Display name:
    Luvflyin
    This all had a lot to do with the redesign of the San Francisco Class B. There were Approaches there that did not contain aircraft in the B.
     
    kayoh190 likes this.
  12. kayoh190

    kayoh190 Administrator Management Council Member PoA Supporter

    Joined:
    May 29, 2014
    Messages:
    4,010

    Display name:
    Kayoh@190
    Yeah, while at my former company we had issues with one of the approaches to LAS, and they actually modified the Bravo to accommodate it. I think that was the first time that I learned that we were supposed to stay within the Bravo. It was news to a lot of us. ;)
     
  13. mscard88

    mscard88 Touchdown! Greaser!

    Joined:
    Oct 1, 2015
    Messages:
    23,217
    Location:
    Alabama

    Display name:
    Mark
    Oh he's around, he just has butt hurt, amiright @denverpilot? ;)
     
    kayoh190 likes this.
  14. Hank S

    Hank S En-Route

    Joined:
    Jul 3, 2013
    Messages:
    4,692
    Location:
    Eclectic, AL

    Display name:
    Hank
    Boy, I leave you guys for one whole day . . . .

    What happened now?

    To recover the thread, I drove blindly into the Bravo last night, and will be similarly heading out soon, once I get more coffee inside me. Since ATL Approach never lets me inside, we took the car this time. :ihih:
     
    Justin M likes this.