Mountain flying without mountain training

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ATC_av8er

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ATC_av8er
I am looking to fly to some of the Colorado mountain airports, specifically Aspen and Eagle, and Jackson Hole, WY. I don't have mountain flying training so I was going to find a spot to go up and around, and follow valleys and lower elevations to my destination. I know i need to look for violent downdrafts, so an earlier morning flight would be best. Any good (and safe) routes to accomplish this or should I just wait to take the course? Piper Archer would be my ride.
 
What's your experience level with high DA ops?

And...

How well do you feel you self-study? There's excellent mountain flying material available.

Obviously the "best" way is to get a local CFI and a little help and training, but people do successfully fly into mountain airports. In CO we aren't really "backcountry" strips, we're mostly just very high paved runways.

Eagle is the easiest out of the three you listed. There's ways to get to Eagle that are low-ish but you're still likely to be surprised at lack of performance if temps are warm, and groundspeed at landing being significantly higher than what you're used to seeing, depending on where you usually fly.

Aspen has some special procedures that you should be aware of and flying right up close and personal next to a mountain ridgeline should be something you're comfortable with for ASE. Not to mention hellish ramp fees and reservations required in winter due to a full ramp of bizjets. And frankly if you can get to Eagle, Aspen is just "up valley" from there.

I haven't done enough flying around Jackson Hole to give any meaningful tips. Photos make it look like it's in a reasonably big valley, but local weather I can't speak for.

Many club CFIs and independents around here can do a mountain crash course with the basics in a day -- and many folks plan to stop on the Front Range and see the sights and meet up with a CFI to do a little work and then continue on their trips on up into the rocks after doing a little round robin of a few of the airports with the CFI.

We push the CPA course around here pretty hard but there's other ways to get up there for a few hours with an instructor.

The main thing you learn is to fly before noon unless there's an incredibly stable and light wind airmass over the Rockies, before the turbulence starts, and always set yourself up with an "out" where crossing high terrain.

This stuff is covered in most mountain flying material. I'm partial to Sparky Imeson's stuff, myself, but theres lots out there. And Sparky died in a mountain crash, so there's a built in warning there for all of us. He was a very good mountain pilot.

You didn't say which direction you're coming from, so we can't offer a route. :)
 
I lived In Denver and flew in Colorado for 20 years. Having received mountain training, flown in the Rockies, and given the training when I became a CFI, I personally would not venture a flight into a mountain airport based only on book learning and tips from SGOTI.
 
midlifeflyer said:
I lived In Denver and flew in Colorado for 20 years. Having received mountain training, flown in the Rockies, and given the training when I became a CFI, I personally would not venture a flight into a mountain airport based only on book learning and tips from SGOTI.
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I'm trying to be "nicer" than that, but honestly I shouldn't.

Let me be real clear for the OP. I've seen some conscientious and fairly experienced flatland pilots (some even here on this board) who flew their airplanes to a mountain airport like Eagle on a perfect day and did fine.

But I've also been out on searches for the dead ones who often did something blatantly wrong that isn't always obvious to someone who hasn't done it.

An example. One of the local CFIs does a mini-session at OSH on mountain flying every year. He always uses the I-70 corridor as an example of a trap that kills someone every few years. On a VFR chart, it looks pretty good. Until you look closer and realize the highway goes through a tunnel and coming up from the Denver side you've flown into a relatively narrow canyon with no way out.

Then you add in that an experienced mountain pilot will be all the way over to one side of any canyon if they can be, so they have the absolute most room to turn around and escape. I'll nearly bury that wingtip in the treetops on one side.

Folks without mountain experience will fly up the center. It feels more comfortable and you're away from the trees and rocks going by. It'll kill you when there's not enough room to make a 180 degree turn if you went up the wrong canyon and the terrain can outclimb your 180hp airplane.

And so on and so on. What does a rotor cloud look like and where will you see them? How much wind aloft is "too much" and will create too much mechanical turbulence? What are adiabatic and katabatic winds, and when will they affect you at an airport in a valley and why? And have you really ever seen a takeoff that's three times as long as you're used to at or near sea level in your airplane?

Yeah. I should just go with what @midlifeflyer said. Sometimes it just doesn't pay to be nice about it.

Even though I'm not actively involved with CAP here anymore, and won't be out looking for bodies, bit I also really really hate reading about them in the local and aviation press.
 
Much depends on the degree of 'mountain flying'? Will you be solo with 1/2 fuel, or stuffing 4 adults with a heavy fuel load? Then how high, hot, & short? How are the winds & weather?

It just takes some common sense. I guess we've heard that before too.
 
ATC_av8er said:
I am looking to fly to some of the Colorado mountain airports, specifically Aspen and Eagle, and Jackson Hole, WY. I don't have mountain flying training so I was going to find a spot to go up and around, and follow valleys and lower elevations to my destination. I know i need to look for violent downdrafts, so an earlier morning flight would be best. Any good (and safe) routes to accomplish this or should I just wait to take the course? Piper Archer would be my ride.
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For Jackson Hole, I'd recommend West Yellowstone for 2 reasons....cheaper fuel & everything, and easier flying, you're not in the valley with possible engine performance issues trying to climb high enough to deal with the terrain.
 
ATC_av8er said:
I am looking to fly to some of the Colorado mountain airports, specifically Aspen and Eagle, and Jackson Hole, WY. I don't have mountain flying training so I was going to find a spot to go up and around, and follow valleys and lower elevations to my destination. I know i need to look for violent downdrafts, so an earlier morning flight would be best. Any good (and safe) routes to accomplish this or should I just wait to take the course? Piper Archer would be my ride.
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The CPA mtn ground school is tomorrow (8/5) at Jeffco, flying at your convenience. You're local so go register. If you're a member of Aspen/Alliance, they run a shorter version of a ground every month or so. Talk to any of the schools, ask for the Mtn experienced CFI, get some training. Even going over Corona can be "interesting"
 
Lots of good pilots never paid for "mountian training" it's really not rocket surgery, understand DA, be wind aware, visualize how the wind it flowing over the ridges, use common sense and keep a escape path, etc.

There are also tons on topos and sat images you can access now days.
 
James331 said:
Lots of good pilots never paid for "mountian training" it's really not rocket surgery, understand DA, be wind aware, visualize how the wind it flowing over the ridges, use common sense and keep a escape path, etc.

There are also tons on topos and sat images you can access now days.
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And lots of pilots end up being the object of CAP/Sheriff/Mtn Rescue activities. OJT in any mountain areas is not always succesful.

Fortunately, the OP is local (lives in Colorado) and understands the potential problems.
 
I think it's safe to do some mountain flying without training. For example, DA should be basic pilot knowledge so if you can plan for it and fly at the MEA on airways you will be fine. But things like box canyons can bite you very fatally if you make a small mistake and don't realize it soon enough. Same size mistakes as, for example, flaring too high, but much worse results and fewer escape routes.
 
I don't think you can discount the importance of actually training in the aircraft vs reading a book. There's a reason why the Army uses Nate's area for high altitude quals prior to deployment to Afghanistan. Who knows how many accidents have been prevented over the years by attending HAATS prior to deployment.
 
I would lean toward doing some training. Hell, it's fun. If Murphy shows up and you get stuck somewhere and weather changes, you could find yourself flying in/out with different (more challenging) conditions than you planned on. Better to have it and not need it.... :)
 
If you're going the book learning route, pull up the Flight Chops series on YouTube regarding mountain flying. It was pretty eye-opening to this flat lander. Should I journey West of Denver, I'd want some training (and a turbo'd aircraft to boot).

Denver alluded to it above regarding canyon flying, depending what side of the valley you're on windward/leeward, you'll need to fly close the canyon wall. Cross ridgelines at 45* angle in case you get caught in a rotor... that kind of stuff...
 
ATC_av8er said:
I am looking to fly to some of the Colorado mountain airports, specifically Aspen and Eagle, and Jackson Hole, WY. I don't have mountain flying training so I was going to find a spot to go up and around, and follow valleys and lower elevations to my destination. I know i need to look for violent downdrafts, so an earlier morning flight would be best. Any good (and safe) routes to accomplish this or should I just wait to take the course? Piper Archer would be my ride.
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Lean the engine prior to takeoff. Fly in the mornings. Check the performance charts.
 
iamtheari said:
I think it's safe to do some mountain flying without training. For example, DA should be basic pilot knowledge so if you can plan for it and fly at the MEA on airways you will be fine. But things like box canyons can bite you very fatally if you make a small mistake and don't realize it soon enough. Same size mistakes as, for example, flaring too high, but much worse results and fewer escape routes.
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Unfortunately, out here in the Rockies, many MEAs are over 16K and most small GA airplanes can't get that high in the summer. (some of us can't get that high, period)

Consider worst route KAPA - KEGE (similar to KAPA-KASE), which is KAPA V160 MURFE V 108 DBL (which I would NEVER suggest and I seriously doubt anyone else around here would without a high-performance turbo) MEA is 16.4K.

A better route is KAPA-BREWS (yes, the Coors factory gets its own waypoint) - over the town of Eldora Springs - Corona Pass (ground is 11.6K) - RLG-V361 pass the Eagle RCO to the golf course at Wolcott then follow I-70 to KEGE. Altho the MEA is 15.5K, the VFR flight is 13.5K, maybe 14K if you want more altitude over the pass. (This is similar to the CPA mountain route)

Or the long way around is KAPA - BJC - CO/WY state line then come down the valley from Walden, on the east side of Rabbit Ears pass to Kremmling and then the route from there. Highest alt needed is 12.5. (This is my personal wimp-out route and I'm proud of it! flat land for emergencies almost everywhere)
 
Fluffy Bunny Airlines said:
I would lean toward doing some training. Hell, it's fun. If Murphy shows up and you get stuck somewhere and weather changes, you could find yourself flying in/out with different (more challenging) conditions than you planned on. Better to have it and not need it.... :)
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Well, if this Murphey shows up, it will be with CAP and hot chocolate.
 
ATC_av8er said:
I am looking to fly to some of the Colorado mountain airports, specifically Aspen and Eagle, and Jackson Hole, WY. I don't have mountain flying training so I was going to find a spot to go up and around, and follow valleys and lower elevations to my destination. I know i need to look for violent downdrafts, so an earlier morning flight would be best. Any good (and safe) routes to accomplish this or should I just wait to take the course? Piper Archer would be my ride.
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As a local, what airport do you fly out of? Nate, Clark, Mari, me, couple others, can offer names of excellent local mtn CFIs for some training.
 
James331 said:
Lots of good pilots never paid for "mountian training" it's really not rocket surgery, understand DA, be wind aware, visualize how the wind it flowing over the ridges, use common sense and keep a escape path, etc.

There are also tons on topos and sat images you can access now days.
Click to expand...

I have thousands of hours of mountain flying and never took a mountain flying course. I was thrown into mountain flying in Alaska by my first 135 job with no mountain training whatsoever and just wasn't smart enough to stay away. :loco: I had plenty of scares but I survived the first year.

And with my experience I would take a mountain course just to get a little local area knowledge.

To add to James comments, Be comfortable flying at the outer edges of the envelope. Know your limits, know your planes limits and always, always have a way out.

And yes, learn how to do a max performance 180 degree turn.
 
denverpilot said:
Somehow I missed that the OP was a local. Especially being local, there's just no reason not to grab a mountain CFI and go west for a few hours.
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Just make sure your CFI has real mountain experience, there's a big big difference between being a retired Boeing pilot who has a CO address and now is a hobby CFI, and being someone who has real GA mountain experience.

Said it before, but you'd be way better pressed spending your training funds getting, or even working on your glider ticket.
 
95% of mountain flying is setting up your position, configuration, and airspeed to deal with what mountain wind and weather brings. Learn to expect the unexpected and be prepared to deal with it. That's better explored with a qualified pilot than on the internet. That qualified pilot doesn't necessarily need to be an instructor.
 
Also, be careful with hypoxia at altitude. A hot day at 10,500' MSL can easily be 13,000' DA, and that's what your body (and the aircraft) experiences.
 
Flatland rules and skills don't work real well in the mountains, and there are a multitude of "sucker shots" that the uninitiated fall prey to (like the center of a valley is often full of down-air -- the trick is identifying which side has the rising air). Navigation is complicated by the fact that a road next to a stream is very common, and it can be very difficult to be sure you're following the one you think you are.

Definitely seek-out an experienced mountain pilot/CFI to give you some instruction to keep you safe. Be blessed
 
James331 said:
Just make sure your CFI has real mountain experience, there's a big big difference between being a retired Boeing pilot who has a CO address and now is a hobby CFI, and being someone who has real GA mountain experience.

Said it before, but you'd be way better pressed spending your training funds getting, or even working on your glider ticket.
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The people I named (Nate, Clark, etc) aren't mtn CFIs but not only do we know who the good ones are, one or more of us have flown with them. We know from whence we speak.
 
I'd still say getting some glider time in the hills would help a good bit more
 
murphey said:
Or the long way around is KAPA - BJC - CO/WY state line then come down the valley from Walden, on the east side of Rabbit Ears pass to Kremmling and then the route from there. Highest alt needed is 12.5. (This is my personal wimp-out route and I'm proud of it! flat land for emergencies almost everywhere)
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This route can be done at 10.5. I've became a big fan of crossing the Front Range near the CO/WY line. Probably the most benign terrain. It's usually windy/bumpy but tolerable. Obviously it's not a good route for South Park or San Louis Valley destinations but if headed to the western slope it'll get ya there at the lowest altitude and best chance of avoiding weather.

For the OP, take a flight with a qualified mtn CFI. Ya really don't want to learn what ya don't know the hard way. Mtn flying has gotten easier with gps and more weather stations, but it's still worth a couple hours of training.
 
SoCal RV Flyer said:
Also, be careful with hypoxia at altitude. A hot day at 10,500' MSL can easily be 13,000' DA, and that's what your body (and the aircraft) experiences.
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The aircraft does experience it and we see it on the news nearly every summer.

The body, not so much. The air in the lungs is pretty constant temperature.
 
The hazards of operating your aircraft at its limits in the mountains.
All it takes is a wind gust at the wrong time.
 
Clark1961 said:
Western Air used to have a pretty good mountain training program set up. I haven't talked to any of those guys since they were Borged.
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Didn't Bowman leave a few years ago, working for himself these days? Or what?
 
murphey said:
Didn't Bowman leave a few years ago, working for himself these days? Or what?
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Last I knew Bowman was at Journeys at BDU. That was two years ago. Heard he stopped doing mountain training.

Howard (forget his last name) was at Western Air and he used to do mountain training for CAP. I never flew with him but he struck me as one of the good ones.
 
Clark1961 said:
Last I knew Bowman was at Journeys at BDU. That was two years ago. Heard he stopped doing mountain training.

Howard (forget his last name) was at Western Air and he used to do mountain training for CAP. I never flew with him but he struck me as one of the good ones.
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Tim Sale works for Front Range Flight @ KFTG but lives in the foothills, he might be a good choice. I've flown with him in the past. He's been flying off the hours for a new RV10 that was just finished over here.
 
Clark1961 said:
Last I knew Bowman was at Journeys at BDU. That was two years ago. Heard he stopped doing mountain training.

Howard (forget his last name) was at Western Air and he used to do mountain training for CAP. I never flew with him but he struck me as one of the good ones.
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Are you thinking of John Howard?
 
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