Mountain flying without mountain training

[flyingron]

Learned to fly in Colorado and completed a mountain course there. There are definitely multiple things in play:

High DA (this is an issue even if you are on the "flats" up there and even if you are going OVER the mountains).
Weather concerns (primarily winds) close to the peaks and in the valleys.
Tight terrain.

I've lost two friends in mountain crashes and in both cases they should have known better. The Navion society had their conference in Grand Junction a year ago and reading the information on arrivals written in the newsletter I turned to my wife and suggested that with this information, we'd be lucky if we didn't lose someone on the way in or out of this. Alas, my prediction was sadly correct when a close friend crossing over from the front range. Classic high DA, bad winds, trying to cross a ridge line.

A few years later another friend who was based in the bay area (one would assume he had mountain experience), high time CFI/ATP, ended up a box canyon. Apparently, he misnavigated coming out of a mountain airport.

 

[Zeldman]

d

Z:
Good points (as usual), but I'm interested in your "max performance 180." Do you advocate doing it in slow-flight, or a steep turn at higher speed? Seems like the objective is to reverse course with minimum turning radius, n'est-ce pas?

Also, a couple points to the OP: Don't forget that a lot of mountain weather can be "local" development (unforcast), and don't even consider flying in the mountains at night (that just needed to be said). Mountain flying is a wonderful experience, but it demands knowledge and practice with a different set of rules: It is no place for beginners trying to figure it out on their own. Fly safely

It is so, the objective is to turn around in the least amount of space. That can be done in slow flight, or minimal controllable airspeed and full flaps. Most of my 180 turns have been in a C-206 and 207, which can turn around in a pretty small radius. Since clouds may be the reason for turning around in a mountain pass, the turn should be practiced without gaining altitude.

And yes, I have made a few wrong turns and ended up in a box canyon, usually with snow or rain in the canyon.

 

[Palmpilot]

Excess speed can be traded for altitude while entering the turn, no?

 

[Zeldman]

Yes. As long as the clouds don't get in the way.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

An example. One of the local CFIs does a mini-session at OSH on mountain flying every year. He always uses the I-70 corridor as an example of a trap that kills someone every few years. On a VFR chart, it looks pretty good. Until you look closer and realize the highway goes through a tunnel and coming up from the Denver side you've flown into a relatively narrow canyon with no way out.

The way out is to hang a left and fly over Loveland Pass before you get there, but at 13000 MSL, you'll be 10' AGL so best to know that's coming.

Good examples of common non-mountain-flyer mistakes.

I would suggest that if one is tempted to do such things, one should load their plane up to max gross - Maybe even a little over to account for the fuel you'll burn taking off from a lower elevation - And climb to 12,000 feet or so. Keep trying to climb from there and see how the plane performs. It ain't gonna be great. And definitely practice the 180º performance turns.

And read Sparky's books and anything else you can get your hands on.

But it is MUCH better, and much more fun, to take a mountain flying course. I recommend http://www.mountaincanyonflying.com/ in McCall, ID even if you have to travel some to get there, as their course not only includes flying around the mountains, it also includes landing at backcountry airstrips in the mountains and there are some spectacular strips up near them in the Frank Church River of No Return Wilderness Area up there.

That course was both some of the most educational AND the most fun flying I've ever done. Highly recommend it.

Good points (as usual), but I'm interested in your "max performance 180." Do you advocate doing it in slow-flight, or a steep turn at higher speed? Seems like the objective is to reverse course with minimum turning radius, n'est-ce pas?

I made a spreadsheet. LOL

On the left is bank angle in degrees, on the top is speed in knots, and the individual cells starting in the 3rd column is the turn radius in feet for that speed and bank angle. If we assume a stall speed of 60 knots, the second column is the stall speed for that bank angle and the red cells are below the stall speed for that bank angle.

As you can see, higher speed and higher bank angle gives a tighter turn than lower speed and lower bank angle. 75º also exceeds the maximum load factor for a normal category airplane, so the tightest we can turn is at 70 degrees of bank with the stall horn blaring. However, I would suggest 60 degrees as a maximum, since the difference in turn radius is only 14 feet and it's difficult to pull that many Gs unless you train for it, so most likely at a 70 degree bank, most pilots won't pull hard enough to achieve the 356-foot radius, thus both widening the turn AND losing altitude.

This chart also isn't corrected for DA. Stall will be at a calibrated airspeed, while the turn radius is based on true airspeed (or, more correctly, groundspeed but that will vary for any given situation). So, these numbers will vary with altitude and wind. However, the relationship between speed, stall, and bank angle will not vary, so we know the smallest radius is in a steep turn with the stall horn blaring.

The high-performance box canyon turn I was taught was to go full power and full flaps while rolling into a steep turn. You should also allow for enough of a climb to keep the airspeed from increasing beyond 1.5Vs0.

 

[Clark1961]

Just a couple comments about Loveland pass at 13,000'

It sounds real doable and then you find yourself there trying to get to 14,000' for the recommended clearance altitude. The plane stopped climbing and you wonder why. If you manage to get it turned around and headed downhill then you can remember density altitude and that 13,000' was really 16,000' and 14,000 was really 17,000' which is above the aircraft service ceiling. Many folks haven't gotten to that realization and their aircraft (or parts of it) are still on some hillside.

One other thing, that's the continental divide and is usually just a bit windy with nice downdrafts on the eastern side...

Get some training before heading into the hills. Learn what you don't know in a classroom and with an instructor. Don't learn it while approaching a pass you never should have tried on that day. Or worse, while impacting a hillside.

 

[flyingron]

Not correcting for density altitude is exactly what gets people in trouble. You may have a hard time maintainling level flight let alone making turns at these altitudes.

The other problem with Loveland Pass is the people who think I-70 goes through the pass itself (US-6 does).

 

[murphey]

Not correcting for density altitude is exactly what gets people in trouble. You may have a hard time maintainling level flight let alone making turns at these altitudes.

The other problem with Loveland Pass is the people who think I-70 goes through the pass itself (US-6 does).

I70 goes thru the tunnel.

 

[denverpilot]

The way out is to hang a left and fly over Loveland Pass before you get there, but at 13000 MSL, you'll be 10' AGL so best to know that's coming.

10' AGL with the typical winds at Loveland Pass is not an "out", it's a last ditch effort before you die.

I am not kidding. Arapahoe Basin Ski Area's upper portion is essentially at the top of Loveland Pass. The vast majority of the year it clocks winds above 30 knots all day long. (It's also a damned cold place to ski but the skiing up there is really good so folks put up with it. Sitting on the upper chairlift in 50 knot winds SUCKS, which is why A-Basin is cheaper than lower and less windy ski areas.)

Just a couple comments about Loveland pass at 13,000'

It sounds real doable and then you find yourself there trying to get to 14,000' for the recommended clearance altitude. The plane stopped climbing and you wonder why. If you manage to get it turned around and headed downhill then you can remember density altitude and that 13,000' was really 16,000' and 14,000 was really 17,000' which is above the aircraft service ceiling. Many folks haven't gotten to that realization and their aircraft (or parts of it) are still on some hillside.

One other thing, that's the continental divide and is usually just a bit windy with nice downdrafts on the eastern side...

Get some training before heading into the hills. Learn what you don't know in a classroom and with an instructor. Don't learn it while approaching a pass you never should have tried on that day. Or worse, while impacting a hillside.

This.

Only on the absolute calmest days is Loveland Pass even flyable safely and us locals know it. I will NOT pick Loveland Pass over numerous other options that are better without knowing I'm in an aircraft that will top it by 2000' AGL. And that means a high performance aircraft. Essentially it's not a flyable Pass. It's a route for an aircraft already in the low teens in cruise.

The better options just aren't that far away or out of the way to justify flying Loveland.

Not correcting for density altitude is exactly what gets people in trouble. You may have a hard time maintainling level flight let alone making turns at these altitudes.

Kent mentioned that most people won't "pull" hard enough to do the 2 G turn. Everyone's done steep turns to at least Private standards but not everyone has done a level 2 G turn to Commercial standards. That's "not enough experience" step one in that accident chain.

Step two is, very very few have done a Commercial steep turn in atmospheric conditions that require the nose to be pointed DOWN to maintain speed and level flight is impossible at that DA in a 2 G turn.

Like Kent and Clark said, climb up in your airplane for REAL to 12,000 and see what the climb performance looks like. It's usually pitiful. NOW do a steep turn and don't stall. You'll usually end up in a very steep nose down attitude to turn 180 degrees.

The spreadsheet is neat. It doesn't factor in the true fear people feel when the mountain is looming across the windscreen and they're in a nose down, 2 G hard turn and the stall horn starts screaming as soon as they rolled off of wings level into the turn. You can only learn that this view out the window is "okay" by having done it in controlled conditions.

This scenario is what a young father, his wife, and two kids faced who flew up I-70 an number of years ago. The stall/spin occurred in the turn which when calculated later (like the spreadsheet) was shown to be "possible". It wasn't an "impossible turn". But, he didn't make it.

The only good news is, the crash site is always on the Loveland Ski Area property and access to the wreckage and bodies is a lot easier than many other common crash sites on the same passes over and over and over again.

Loveland Pass isn't a good plan, almost ever.

Even Hagerman Pass between Aspen and Leadville which is at a similar altitude to Loveland Pass and has similarly bad performance in anything not turbocharged -- and *is* used for higher horsepower aircraft in the CPA mountain flying course flight -- has better "outs" than Loveland right up until the last mile where you're fully committed and can't reverse course without another 1000' AGL of climb prior to the Pass. You have room to get out of it and head back down-valley on the ASE side until late in the crossing.

Coming from the LXV side (not typical) it's a sheer wall of rock and approaching on an angle there's a way to turn and dive away until you're over the top of it. With winds aloft being similar to Loveland at that height, you'll know approaching from the east that you need to get out of there because of the mechanical turbulence before you're committed. (Plus you'll probably have been circling in the LXV valley to even get up there to an altitude needed to cross it and you've probably noticed by then that you are experiencing moderate turbulence with the occasional smack of your head on the ceiling. A bad day to cross a ridgeline east to west.)

You don't get that early warning in Loveland Pass because of the turn. The winds go around the peak and over the top of the I-70 valley. So the first time you know you're in trouble in there, you're already committed to the crossing. At that point all you can do is pitch for Vy (corrected for altitude) full power and hope you don't hit. If you do hit, you were dead when you made the turn toward the Pass.

And that's why I won't fly Loveland Pass. It's one of those that you "get away with" a couple of times and then it kills you.

 

[murphey]

10' AGL with the typical winds at Loveland Pass is not an "out", it's a last ditch effort before you die.

I am not kidding. Arapahoe Basin Ski Area's upper portion is essentially at the top of Loveland Pass. The vast majority of the year it clocks winds above 30 knots all day long. (It's also a damned cold place to ski but the skiing up there is really good so folks put up with it. Sitting on the upper chairlift in 50 knot winds SUCKS, which is why A-Basin is cheaper than lower and less windy ski areas.)



This.

Only on the absolute calmest days is Loveland Pass even flyable safely and us locals know it. I will NOT pick Loveland Pass over numerous other options that are better without knowing I'm in an aircraft that will top it by 2000' AGL. And that means a high performance aircraft. Essentially it's not a flyable Pass. It's a route for an aircraft already in the low teens in cruise.

The better options just aren't that far away or out of the way to justify flying Loveland.



Kent mentioned that most people won't "pull" hard enough to do the 2 G turn. Everyone's done steep turns to at least Private standards but not everyone has done a level 2 G turn to Commercial standards. That's "not enough experience" step one in that accident chain.

Step two is, very very few have done a Commercial steep turn in atmospheric conditions that require the nose to be pointed DOWN to maintain speed and level flight is impossible at that DA in a 2 G turn.

Like Kent and Clark said, climb up in your airplane for REAL to 12,000 and see what the climb performance looks like. It's usually pitiful. NOW do a steep turn and don't stall. You'll usually end up in a very steep nose down attitude to turn 180 degrees.

The spreadsheet is neat. It doesn't factor in the true fear people feel when the mountain is looming across the windscreen and they're in a nose down, 2 G hard turn and the stall horn starts screaming as soon as they rolled off of wings level into the turn. You can only learn that this view out the window is "okay" by having done it in controlled conditions.

This scenario is what a young father, his wife, and two kids faced who flew up I-70 an number of years ago. The stall/spin occurred in the turn which when calculated later (like the spreadsheet) was shown to be "possible". It wasn't an "impossible turn". But, he didn't make it.

The only good news is, the crash site is always on the Loveland Ski Area property and access to the wreckage and bodies is a lot easier than many other common crash sites on the same passes over and over and over again.

Loveland Pass isn't a good plan, almost ever.

Even Hagerman Pass between Aspen and Leadville which is at a similar altitude to Loveland Pass and has similarly bad performance in anything not turbocharged -- and *is* used for higher horsepower aircraft in the CPA mountain flying course flight -- has better "outs" than Loveland right up until the last mile where you're fully committed and can't reverse course without another 1000' AGL of climb prior to the Pass. You have room to get out of it and head back down-valley on the ASE side until late in the crossing.

Coming from the LXV side (not typical) it's a sheer wall of rock and approaching on an angle there's a way to turn and dive away until you're over the top of it. With winds aloft being similar to Loveland at that height, you'll know approaching from the east that you need to get out of there because of the mechanical turbulence before you're committed. (Plus you'll probably have been circling in the LXV valley to even get up there to an altitude needed to cross it and you've probably noticed by then that you are experiencing moderate turbulence with the occasional smack of your head on the ceiling. A bad day to cross a ridgeline east to west.)

You don't get that early warning in Loveland Pass because of the turn. The winds go around the peak and over the top of the I-70 valley. So the first time you know you're in trouble in there, you're already committed to the crossing. At that point all you can do is pitch for Vy (corrected for altitude) full power and hope you don't hit. If you do hit, you were dead when you made the turn toward the Pass.

And that's why I won't fly Loveland Pass. It's one of those that you "get away with" a couple of times and then it kills you.

I know locals who claim West to East over Loveland Pass is doable, and claim to have flown it. I won't fly with them. To me, there are only two single engine aircraft that can safely do the pass, either direction - a Pilatus and an F16.

Colorado Div of Aeronautics has a map of all the passes with explanations why or why not to fly each pass. You can download the map at its website.

 

[Palmpilot]

...Colorado Div of Aeronautics has a map of all the passes with explanations why or why not to fly each pass. You can download the map at its website.

I'm having trouble finding the correct link on that site.

 

[Clark1961]

And that's why I won't fly Loveland Pass. It's one of those that you "get away with" a couple of times and then it kills you.

I've made similar comments about not flying over that area. Just no real good reason to be there. Of course that's a comment from a guy that is perfectly willing to go 30 minutes out of my way to avoid Corona pass. Spend enough time in a spam can over the rocks and trees and choices become a little clearer.

 

[denverpilot]

I know locals who claim West to East over Loveland Pass is doable, and claim to have flown it. I won't fly with them. To me, there are only two single engine aircraft that can safely do the pass, either direction - a Pilatus and an F16.

Colorado Div of Aeronautics has a map of all the passes with explanations why or why not to fly each pass. You can download the map at its website.

Good info I forgot to add on the downloadable info from CO Aeronautics. Their book on CO flying has a textual description of every major mountain pass in CO. I personally think they're a little too "nice" in their warnings about a few of them and the wording should be stronger, but if you see even a hint of a warning about a pass in that text, take it seriously.

West to East... Loveland... maybe. Prevailing winds will be more in favor of getting pushed up and over, like water over a rock in a stream, but the rotor and mechanical turbulence on the lee side still may be horrendous. The pass also doesn't face the prevailing northwesterlies so the mountains around it create all sorts of unpredictable crap inside it. That's a problem with a couple of the other passes a well, especially in winter when the jet stream is sitting right over the middle Rockies. Weather may look gorgeous, but the winds...!

Interestingly right now we are in the opposite problem. High pressure ridge sitting over the Rockies and upslope winds on the east side for weeks. The winds aloft in the mountains are lovely for mountain flying. No high speed stuff. Problem is, the clouds and visibilities go to crap up there every afternoon because the temps at altitude are low enough to fall below dewpoint. So it's "mountain obscuration" season. And when the clouds form they make bands of little thunderstorms above and behind all the peaks.

Flying before noon helps but it's been really wet and weird the last few weeks. Playing "dodge cloud" in mountain valleys isn't particularly fun unless the cloud coverage is very low.

"What's that mountain goat doing up here in this cloud?" - Gary Larson

 

[Clark1961]

I'm having trouble finding the correct link on that site.

https://www.codot.gov/programs/aeronautics/PDF_Files/AirportDirectory/2017COArptDir

The directory has the pass descriptions

 

[Palmpilot]

Thanks. Looks like the CO Division of Aeronautics is earning their pay!

 

[ejensen]

I agree Loveland is not the best choice many days. All really depends on winds (and temp). If I'm that far south I use Jones Pass or Guanella Pass depending on where I'm headed. But many times we can go straight west over Rocky in the mornings. Ute Pass often works so I don't need to go all the way to the WY line and I don't what to try Cameron (Montgomery) pass.

 

[Clark1961]

Good info I forgot to add on the downloadable info from CO Aeronautics. Their book on CO flying has a textual description of every major mountain pass in CO. I personally think they're a little too "nice" in their warnings about a few of them and the wording should be stronger, but if you see even a hint of a warning about a pass in that text, take it seriously.

West to East... Loveland... maybe. Prevailing winds will be more in favor of getting pushed up and over, like water over a rock in a stream, but the rotor and mechanical turbulence on the lee side still may be horrendous. The pass also doesn't face the prevailing northwesterlies so the mountains around it create all sorts of unpredictable crap inside it. That's a problem with a couple of the other passes a well, especially in winter when the jet stream is sitting right over the middle Rockies. Weather may look gorgeous, but the winds...!

Interestingly right now we are in the opposite problem. High pressure ridge sitting over the Rockies and upslope winds on the east side for weeks. The winds aloft in the mountains are lovely for mountain flying. No high speed stuff. Problem is, the clouds and visibilities go to crap up there every afternoon because the temps at altitude are low enough to fall below dewpoint. So it's "mountain obscuration" season. And when the clouds form they make bands of little thunderstorms above and behind all the peaks.

Flying before noon helps but it's been really wet and weird the last few weeks. Playing "dodge cloud" in mountain valleys isn't particularly fun unless the cloud coverage is very low.

"What's that mountain goat doing up here in this cloud?" - Gary Larson

I'd agree with Nate on many of the pass descriptions. Particularly the bit on winds. Depending on the situation the winds aloft can be one hell of an elevator up....or down...and that's only if you're high enough to avoid the mechanical turbulence. I tend to try to be above the mechanical stuff. I know of places where the rotors go to the ground downwind of the big peaks. You really don't want to fly into that and usually there are ways to avoid them when ya just gotta git there. With that said there are still places to totally avoid.

 

[Clark1961]

I agree Loveland is not the best choice many days. All really depends on winds (and temp). If I'm that far south I use Jones Pass or Guanella Pass depending on where I'm headed. But many times we can go straight west over Rocky in the mornings. Ute Pass often works so I don't need to go all the way to the WY line and I don't what to try Cameron (Montgomery) pass.

Guanella is an interesting choice. Topography should favor updrafts. I've considered it but never really wanted to follow I-70 west from Denver.

 

[denverpilot]

Guanella is an interesting choice. Topography should favor updrafts. I've considered it but never really wanted to follow I-70 west from Denver.

Never attempted Guanella. I see what you're saying, but I'd want to ask around a bit and see how it behaves on a calmish day before recommending it to anyone.

 

[ejensen]

Never attempted Guanella. I see what you're saying, but I'd want to ask around a bit and see how it behaves on a calmish day before recommending it to anyone.

We used it pretty often during my air observer days. These were mostly hot but fairly calm winds. After I got the PP it was a nice option heading south. I flew with Vern Foster once and we couldn't get over to the north. I turn left into Guanella. He wasn't familiar with it either. Note: Vern is one of the originators of the CPA Mountain Flying course.

 

[denverpilot]

We used it pretty often during my air observer days. These were mostly hot but fairly calm winds. After I got the PP it was a nice option heading south. I flew with Vern Foster once and we couldn't get over to the north. I turn left into Guanella. He wasn't familiar with it either. Note: Vern is one of the originators of the CPA Mountain Flying course.

Yup. Did you hear about his 100th birthday party in Oklahoma? All sorts of older CFIs and pilots made the trek down to attend, and quite a few DPEs. There was no scheduling training that weekend or checkrides around here, that's for sure.

One of the local DPEs took him up for a flight as part of the event, and said he did well.

His son (who's obviously in his late 70s or early 80s) "took the keys away" a little while back after a minor incident with a barbed wire fence and a tailwheel clipping it, but most of us couldn't have landed that airplane where he did, even if we were trying. So he doesn't fly by himself anymore, but he's part of that old-school who will probably know how to do it better than most of us even as his body won't let him quite cash those checks anymore.

Amazing guy and amazing history. I never got to fly with him, and that's a disappointment. He was still fairly active in the area when I was a young pup pilot but I had no interest in mountains and flying or seeking out the old timers to learn from back then. Missed it by just a few years.

Same deal with Sparky. Met him a number of times and had great conversations, but never got to fly with him. Somehow ended up with two signed copies of his book, I must have forgotten one was on the shelf and grabbed one in a hurry at the second meet-up, is all I can figure. Too many years ago to remember why when I was working three jobs and flying in my spare time. Pretty sleep deprived back then, even for a 20-something.

 

[ejensen]

Yup. Did you eat about his 100th birthday party in Oklahoma? All sorts of older CFIs and pilots made the trek down to attend, and quite a few DPEs. There was no scheduling training that weekend or checkrides around here, that's for sure.

One of the local DPEs took him up for a flight as part of the event, and said he did well.

His son (who's obviously in his late 70s or early 80s) "took the keys away" a little while back after a minor incident with a barbed wire fence and a tailwheel clipping it, but most of us couldn't have landed that airplane where he did, even if we were trying. So he doesn't fly by himself anymore, but he's part of that old-school who will probably know how to do it better than most of us even as his body won't let him quite cash those checks anymore.

Amazing guy and amazing history. I never got to fly with him, and that's a disappointment. He was still fairly active in the area when I was a young pup pilot but I had no interest in mountains and flying or seeking out the old timers to learn from back then. Missed it by just a few years.

Same deal with Sparky. Met him a number of times and had great conversations, but never got to fly with him. Somehow ended up with two signed copies of his book, I must have forgotten one was on the shelf and grabbed one in a hurry at the second meet-up, is all I can figure. Too many years ago to remember why when I was working three jobs and flying in my spare time. Pretty sleep deprived back then, even for a 20-something.

Didn't make his birthday party, we were out of the country. Something about flying with a guy who taught pilots in WWII is special.

 

[flyingron]

I70 goes thru the tunnel.

Precisely. We had a guy a few decades ago start a third bore through the mountain with his plane. Didn't get very far.

 

[murphey]

Thanks. Looks like the CO Division of Aeronautics is earning their pay!

The airport book comes out every year, the map every other year. I get the leftovers/out of date for recycling to the local eaa young eagle program.

 

[Pilawt]

Also, be careful with hypoxia at altitude. A hot day at 10,500' MSL can easily be 13,000' DA, and that's what your body (and the aircraft) experiences.

No argument with the first sentence.

But think about why the FARs on supplemental O2 are based on pressure altitude rather than density altitude.

 

[flyingron]

No argument with the first sentence.

But think about why the FARs on supplemental O2 are based on pressure altitude rather than density altitude.

O2 perfusion is driven by pressure not by density. Engine performance depends on density. You need to understand what you're dealing with.

 

[denverpilot]

Didn't make his birthday party, we were out of the country. Something about flying with a guy who taught pilots in WWII is special.

Yes it is.

I almost tagged along to the party but I missed his "era" in Denver by a few years and really never knew him or met him in person. Have read a lot of his stuff, though. It seemed a little too "celebrity worship" to go for me.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

Not correcting for density altitude is exactly what gets people in trouble. You may have a hard time maintainling level flight let alone making turns at these altitudes.

I meant that I didn't correct the spreadsheet for density altitude in calculating the radius of the turns - The turn radius will be higher at those altitudes for the same bank angle and IAS.

I would also say that nobody should *ever* fly near mountains at an altitude at which they have a hard time maintaining level flight.

[/quote]The other problem with Loveland Pass is the people who think I-70 goes through the pass itself (US-6 does).[/QUOTE]

Yep.

To clarify, I wasn't saying anyone should necessarily plan on Loveland, but once one gets into that scenario from following I-70, taking the left and going through Loveland beats the hell out of trying to outclimb the terrain and inevitably going splat when you realize I-70 goes through the tunnels:

That's US 6 to the left of I-70, for those unfamiliar - Loveland Pass isn't visible here, lower left behind the rocks.

 

[iamtheari]

Unfortunately, out here in the Rockies, many MEAs are over 16K and most small GA airplanes can't get that high in the summer. (some of us can't get that high, period

That was part of my theory. If you can't fly the MEA, then you will be close enough to the cumilogranite that having some mountain training is probably important. At least those are my personal minimums.

 

[luvflyin]

Mountain flying without mountain training. Maybe not a good idea.

 

[Clark1961]

That was part of my theory. If you can't fly the MEA, then you will be close enough to the cumilogranite that having some mountain training is probably important. At least those are my personal minimums.

MEA is a number for communications, navigation, and terrain clearance specified by a reg. It does not imply safety. On the wrong day encountering mountain wave while at MEA is a given. Wave is usually smooth but it can certainly take you below MEA very quickly.

When planning a route around the hills I look at terrain, I look at winds aloft, I pay attention to time of day, dew point and temperature are important, and a few other things depending on where and when. I do not look at a low IFR chart.