Mountain Flying VFR/IFR

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Therookguy

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Therookguy
Howdy all. I am thinking about whether I should fly my 182 out to the phoenix area or grab an airline ride. I'll be coming in from almost directly east of Phoenix and noticed there were some mountains there.

I have multiple hours flying gliders in the mountains in New Mexico, but I've never taken a cross country trip in a powered single engine across a mountain range. I'm IFR rated and the MEA is not that bad, tops out at 13k. I feel confident that I won't CFIT myself, but I'm just doing a sanity since GA safety articles and accident reports make a huge deal about mountain flying. Is there any good reading material or training I should consider before taking said flight?

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I fly from Phx to St Louis and Memphis with some regularity.

I don’t have any issues.

yeah, few people understand just how high New Mexico and Eastern Arizona terrain comes up.

Don’t overthink this one. Fly it and enjoy the view. You’ll be glad you did.
 
Yes I did some research online. Seems like this is flown quite often. Read an article about a guy who was fire spotting and lost his engine, but managed to put it down with no injuries. Maybe fuel costs will go down before my trip.
 
I flew light pistons in Colorado for 20 years and a 182 should have no difficulty with those altitudes. It's really about the pilot and I don't know you well enough to comment with any real definiteness. That said since you have flown gliders, I guess one can presume at least (if not superior) understanding of density altitude, its effect on airfoils, mountain weather, and the "always have an out" principle. Those are the things that the articles are typically talking about and which require some degree of training for the uninitiated.

The other piece is IFR vs VFR. I've done both but you need to consider that the risk factors are to some degree additive. Mountain flight has a certain degree of risk. Add clouds to the picture and it increases. Add night and it increases more. If for no reason than limiting options in case of a problem. On the flip side, you'll notice that airways in that area tend to follow lover and generally more hospitable terrain.
 
This is along your route of flight, about halfway between KSJN and KSOW. The small town on the right is Concho. The terrain itself is not all that daunting, but it is up around 7,000' msl. The photo was taken from an altitude of 10,500' msl, less than 4,000' agl. I agree with the above, when operated with due respect to the topography, a 182 should be perfectly adequate.

 
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Pilawt said:
This is along your route of flight, about halfway between KSJN and KSOW. The small town on the right is Concho. The terrain itself is not all that daunting, but it is up around 7,000' msl. The photo was taken from an altitude of 10,500' msl, less than 4,000' agl. I agree with the above, when operated with due respect to the topography, a 182 should be perfectly adequate.
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Oh that's not bad at all. I fly near terrain like that between NM and CO all the time.
 
I flew IFR from KABQ to KBXK at non-oxygen altitudes last April. It was VMC but I filed to make it easier to deal with the Phoenix Bravo. The joke was on me, they just vectored me around it. On the way home, we went VFR around the south side of White Sands. I was in a bigger plane but I would have been comfortable with both routes in a 182 as long as it was good VMC and the engine wasn't fresh out of maintenance or something.
 
Consider taking a mountain flying class when you go out west.
 
From NM to Phoenix has high terrain, but not like trying to go West from Denver. If solo or lightly loaded, performance ‘shouldn’t’ be an issue. Your course line likely won’t be straight, fly the lower terrain areas.

Depending on the time, individual conditions and forecast, watch the surface winds. If howling, they can about render an airport unusable. Always keep a few options open.

There should be some sights along the way, I’d be doing a few fly-bys.
 
This time of year the afternoons start to get a little rough. In general spring is the windiest time of year in the mountains, and then add in the differential heating. The low valleys are brown and absorbing heat, the higher terrain still has snow, it can make for unpleasant ridge crossings. I try to fly over the biggest passes early in the day if possible, it its calm I'll cross the ridges with a few hundred feet clearance, if its breezy I'll cross at 1000' or more. If its really blowing, stay on the ground or take a different route. Crossing a ridge in high winds from the leeward side can lead to some pucker if you don't have your altitude well before the ridge.
 
Been wanting to fly down to KSKX this fall for an elk hunt since driving 22 hours from the flatlands of Illinois sucks. I plan on taking a mountain flying course this summer because I'm a flatlander.
 
I like Sparky Imeson's books.

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Where I live, this is frequently the view out the window. Not quite the altitude of the Rockies. But, still a lot of fun!

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Racerx said:
Been wanting to fly down to KSKX this fall for an elk hunt since driving 22 hours from the flatlands of Illinois sucks. I plan on taking a mountain flying course this summer because I'm a flatlander.
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You still have to know what you are doing but, fortunately, Taos itself is relatively flat (albeit high) and, if necessary, you can always divert to KABQ where the terrain is substantially lower and follow the valley north.
 
Racerx said:
Been wanting to fly down to KSKX this fall for an elk hunt since driving 22 hours from the flatlands of Illinois sucks. I plan on taking a mountain flying course this summer because I'm a flatlander.
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I highly recommend the one the Colorado Pilots Association puts on. I attended last year and thought it was invaluable. I’ll probably go back again this year, as I was unable to implement any mountain trips due to smoke. I think they’re planning 2-3 dates this year.
 
This is helpful. I am planning a trip to Phoenix this month from Chicago. I was planning to go the low route west of KELP at 10500 early in the morning. I will be on the heavier side in the F33a, but I think it will be fine given decent weather.
 
kujo806 said:
This is helpful. I am planning a trip to Phoenix this month from Chicago. I was planning to go the low route west of KELP at 10500 early in the morning. I will be on the heavier side in the F33a, but I think it will be fine given decent weather.
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Piece o' cake with that much horsepower. From ELP I usually go by way of DMN, SSO and ITEMM. There's just one 7,700' ridge to cross between SSO and ITEMM, but the rest of the route is pretty tame. Or you can follow I-10 all the way and get a nice view of the Davis-Monthan AFB "Boneyard" in Tucson.

Which airport in the Phoenix area are you coming to?
 
kujo806 said:
This is helpful. I am planning a trip to Phoenix this month from Chicago. I was planning to go the low route west of KELP at 10500 early in the morning. I will be on the heavier side in the F33a, but I think it will be fine given decent weather.
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C33a (sorry. When you mentioned an F33 in a thread about mountain flying...)
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I go with analyzing the additive risk factors mentioned earlier. I’ve spent quite a bit of time flying the Rockies, learned to fly in the ABQ area, and flown from there to the PHX area a lot. 172s and 182s, with family. I won’t do any of it at night, and most I won’t do IFR. But, unlike flying the mtns back east IFR just isn’t as necessary. Anyway, flying the mtns is awesome - when I’m flying from the east I just plan an overnight just before I hit them, cross in the morning. Usually it’s easy.
 
midlifeflyer said:
You still have to know what you are doing but, fortunately, Taos itself is relatively flat (albeit high) and, if necessary, you can always divert to KABQ where the terrain is substantially lower and follow the valley north.
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Was planning on going through La Veta pass then south. I know it's got its own AWOS and is supposedly one of the easier ones...but still.... Illinois flatlander
 
Racerx said:
Was planning on going through La Veta pass then south. I know it's got its own AWOS and is supposedly one of the easier ones...but still.... Illinois flatlander
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La Veta is a crossover standard because it empties into a nice wide valley. But it can be a real challenge in high winds.

BTW, small tip. Those )( symbols? They show where the road crosses the pass. It is not necessarily the best place to fly. I wish I could remember the pass, but I once flew with someone who headed straight for the symbol. I pointed out the window. "Would you rather go there (a narrow gap between two peaks, the "pass")? Or there (a wide flat area)?"
 
Therookguy said:
Howdy all. I am thinking about whether I should fly my 182 out to the phoenix area or grab an airline ride. I'll be coming in from almost directly east of Phoenix and noticed there were some mountains there.

I have multiple hours flying gliders in the mountains in New Mexico, but I've never taken a cross country trip in a powered single engine across a mountain range. I'm IFR rated and the MEA is not that bad, tops out at 13k. I feel confident that I won't CFIT myself, but I'm just doing a sanity since GA safety articles and accident reports make a huge deal about mountain flying. Is there any good reading material or training I should consider before taking said flight?

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This should be a straightforward flight under VFR. I would not attempt this in IMC in a normally aspirated airplane with no FIKI capability. But IMC in that part of the country is a rare event anyway.
 
midlifeflyer said:
La Veta is a crossover standard because it empties into a nice wide valley. But it can be a real challenge in high winds.

BTW, small tip. Those )( symbols? They show where the road crosses the pass. It is not necessarily the best place to fly. I wish I could remember the pass, but I once flew with someone who headed straight for the symbol. I pointed out the window. "Would you rather go there (a narrow gap between two peaks, the "pass")? Or there (a wide flat area)?"
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Appreciate the tip! Thought I heard the train tracks slightly south were a better path to follow. The AWOS makes it nice and worst case go the long way and head south.
 
The main thing, in my very humble and limited opinion is to check the winds aloft. If the winds aloft forecast at mountain top level are more than about 40 knots and I'll have to fly downwind of said mountains within 3000-5000 feet of the mountain tops(depending on the mountains' prominences), I won't go or will seek alternate routings (or go VFR and stay close to the base of the mountains....much smoother there in those situations, kind of like hanging out behind a waterfall).

If IFR is in the equation, be sure to compare freezing levels and icing forecast to the MEA. Even in Arizona, I'm sure there are times when you'd find yourself in icing conditions at all usable IFR altitudes.

If you cross a ridge VFR, try to clear it by a few thousand feet and approach it at a 45 degree angle. That way if something unexpected happens (downdrafts, mountain wave, engine failure) you can turn away from the ridge into lower terrain.

Somedays, like this one, it's just not worth it. Even hanging out along the bases of the mountains, on windy days you will get rocked at the mouth of valleys coming out of the mountains.
 
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midlifeflyer said:
La Veta is a crossover standard because it empties into a nice wide valley. But it can be a real challenge in high winds.

BTW, small tip. Those )( symbols? They show where the road crosses the pass. It is not necessarily the best place to fly. I wish I could remember the pass, but I once flew with someone who headed straight for the symbol. I pointed out the window. "Would you rather go there (a narrow gap between two peaks, the "pass")? Or there (a wide flat area)?"
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Was that Mosca Pass? I prefer Mosca to LaVeta because westbound, it's an incredible sight to come over the pass and have the Sand Dunes below you. But as Denverpilot explained, the geography can make the winds a real challenge. Winds also a problem with LaVeta, rule of thumb if the winds are >15, consider a different route. I've gone over/thru both at 12.5 with no problems. (And the peaks of the hills are above me) But getting up that high can take a while.

As for not going IFR...filing IFR isn't the issue. If it's really IMC, don't go. At night, don't go. Unless you're at the IFR altitudes, radio reception goes away for a while over either pass.
 
murphey said:
Was that Mosca Pass? I prefer Mosca to LaVeta because westbound, it's an incredible sight to come over the pass and have the Sand Dunes below you.
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No it wasn't Mosca.

But now you've made me homesick.

I used to take the "back route" from Denver to Taos and Santa Fe on nice days. Enter west of Perry Park, pass west of Pikes Peak and Cripple Creek, down over (not under!) the Royal Gorge Bridge toward Silver West, cross Mosca and overfly San Dunes into wide valley. Really stunning and I can still close my eyes and see it.
 
It’s all about the weather, including wind forecast, if it’s like this, it’s a no go(14,000’ forecast):
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The FAA has installed web cams on virtually all of the mountain passes in Colorado. In addition to the AWOS for LaVeta pass you can log onto FAA webcams at: https://weathercams.faa.gov/map and actually see the weather at the passes. I have flown LaVeta pass many, many times and my limit is 30 knots at the pass. The ride becomes far too unpleasant at higher winds. The leeward side can have downdrafts beyond the capability of my Arrow 200 to maintain the 12,500 foot altitude that I like to have over that pass. An alternate is to stay east of the front Range to Las Vegas NM then west over ABQ. That route is my night IFR route although it can be rough with strong westerly winds too. If you approach the Front Range and see standing lenticular clouds then I suggest landing and waiting for better winds aloft.
 
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