MOSAIC Rule Today?

GBear286 said:
This is true. It's a bit scary that there will be people with major cardiac, neurological and psychiatric problems flying under Light Sport rules. Apparently the accident rates for 3rd Class medical and Basic Med are similar but it's about double for those flying under LSA rules. Is this an airplane or pilot issue or both? I suspect smaller airplanes might be harder to control in gusty conditions but medical issues are probably a major factor. The insurance market may sort this out for us.

I think that Basic Med process is flawed but it works for many pilots. I have used it for myself as it is much easier process than 3rd Class. I will meet with my AME today for a routine exam to discuss going back to 3rd Class. I'm pretty sure I should have no problem but not taking any chances. I'm doing this as I expect insurance providers will be more comfortable renewing my policy in the future if I have the 3rd Class at my age (late 60s). I wonder if I could even find insurance for my DA40 if I were to fly it as a LSA airplane.

I would like to offer some advice from a physician's perspective in terms of obtaining Basic Med. I recommend starting with your primary care doc and asking in advance if he/she is familiar with Basic Med. If not, I'd give a copy of the AOPA Physician's Guide to Basic Med and politely ask if he/she would review it. Call the office a few days later and ask if the physician is willing to schedule the exam portion. Don't show up for a regular annual appointment and yell "Surprise! You need to fill this out" as you shove the Basic Med checklist is his/her face.


Basic Med is a bit scary in terms of potential legal liability for the signing physician, a particularly ugly form of liability known as non patient 3rd party. If someone (the sole passenger or person on the ground) is injured in an accident and can reasonably claim that that pilot had a medical condition that contributed to the accident, the Basic Med physician might have some explaining to do in court. If the physician loses the lawsuit malpractice insurance does not cover the cost of damages to 3rd parties.

So MOSAIC has the potential of allowing medically unfit persons to fly while removing physician responsibility from the equation.
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You are most likely referring to this data point
when talking about LSA accident rates.

Interestingly, most of LSA accidents are attributed to high time pilots and there is nothing in the data suggesting any medical issues…. If anything it is related to issues controlling very light airplanes …
 

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midwestpa24 said:
Have you seen this LSA just unveiled at Oshkosh. $69,500 factory built, single seat, custom engine. https://spiriteng.com/se-1-aircraft/

I don't know much about them or how they do it, but one can hope this could be the future. With the new rules, they might be able to turn this into a two-seater for under $100k.
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I almost put a deposit on this.
Don’t get your hopes up.

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M
Warmi said:
Interestingly, most of LSA accidents are attributed to high time pilots and there is nothing in the data suggesting any medical issues…. If anything it is related to issues controlling very light airplanes …
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Yes, that seems to be true, and it even makes sense. These (pre-MOSAIC) LSAs are very lightly loaded, have little inertia, and take more skill in gusty/crosswind conditions than something heavier. Some flight schools have noticed this from the very beginning and increased usual checkout requirements. My first LSA checkout was 15 years ago in a PiperSport. Standard checkout was an hour in their "normal" airplanes; 2 hours in the LSA. My personal rule for a checkout for a transitioning pilot is that we must land in crosswinds before I will sign them off.

It's different for those who learn in one, which is why I like to say that the typical newly-minted sport pilot is actually more skilled than the typical newly-minted private pilot.
 
GBear286 said:
This is true. It's a bit scary that there will be people with major cardiac, neurological and psychiatric problems flying under Light Sport rules. Apparently the accident rates for 3rd Class medical and Basic Med are similar but it's about double for those flying under LSA rules. Is this an airplane or pilot issue or both? I suspect smaller airplanes might be harder to control in gusty conditions but medical issues are probably a major factor. The insurance market may sort this out for us.
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In the 20 years since it was enacted, the record hasn't shown a significant difference in the rate of medical incapacitation related accidents between pilots with medicals and pilots operating under the sport pilot rules with no medical. Now that sport pilots aren't limited to very light planes, I suspect the accident rate will improve.
 
Dana said:
Except for those pilots with one of the listed medical conditions that invalidate basicmed until you get a one time SI, which can be very expensive even if ultimately successful.
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Except a BasicMed pilot will be able to exercise Sport Pilot privileges in many of the same planes as BasicMed. This means a pilot can ‘fall back’ from BasicMed to Sport Pilot with just a driver’s license and some operating limitations around pax count, stall speed and maximum altitude (higher of 10K/200AGL).

There’s a certain level of gracefulness to that path (third class > BM > SP).

There’s some other plusses to this scheme for some with other medical certification challenges so long as they are looking at the recreational side of flying (those operations that don’t require a second class medical certificate to perform).

Who it won’t help are those with complicated histories who also require a second class or higher medical to start training like many 141s/college aviation programs.
 
TCABM said:
Except a BasicMed pilot will be able to exercise Sport Pilot privileges in many of the same planes as BasicMed. This means a pilot can ‘fall back’ from BasicMed to Sport Pilot with just a driver’s license and some operating limitations around pax count, stall speed and maximum altitude (higher of 10K/200AGL).

There’s a certain level of gracefulness to that path (third class > BM > SP).

There’s some other plusses to this scheme for some with other medical certification challenges so long as they are looking at the recreational side of flying (those operations that don’t require a second class medical certificate to perform).

Who it won’t help are those with complicated histories who also require a second class or higher medical to start training like many 141s/college aviation programs.
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Basically, the difference between PP and flying under Sport Pilot privileges is now quite minimal and for majority of GA pilots who fly either by themselves or with one passenger , hardly ever go over 10k or hardly ever fly at night/ IFR ,as long as the plane qualifies as Light Aport ( which a lot of them now will ) it makes no difference.
 
GBear286 said:
This is true. It's a bit scary that there will be people with major cardiac, neurological and psychiatric problems flying under Light Sport rules. Apparently the accident rates for 3rd Class medical and Basic Med are similar but it's about double for those flying under LSA rules.
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I took a look at the "Pilot Incapacitation" accident rates a few years back. This is for all aircraft types, not just homebuilts.
1753378911228.png
Dark blue bars denotes the accidents which happened to holders of a Class 3 medical or above (the data pre-dates Basic Med).

I don't see a major impact of Sport Pilot. At the most, we're seeing two or three accidents a year due to incapacitation of a Sport Pilot....that's, roughly, 0.1% of US aircraft accidents. I suspect the FAA found the same results, which led to the expansion via MOSAIC.

Ron Wanttaja
 
Warmi said:
Interestingly, most of LSA accidents are attributed to high time pilots and there is nothing in the data suggesting any medical issues…. If anything it is related to issues controlling very light airplanes …
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I did run my standard analyses against Light Sports a few years back.

Pilots involved in homebuilt accidents had a median total time of about 1,000 hours.
Pilots involved in Cessna 172 accidents had a median total time of about 245 hours.
Pilots flying Light Sport airplanes had a median total time of 520 hours...more than twice the Cessna cases.

About 8% of the Light Sport airplane accidents had a person with an ATP at the controls, vs. about 2.5% of the Cessna 172s. If one combines the cases with an ATP or Commercial certificates, it's 31.5% for the Light Sports, vs. ~14% for the Cessna 172s.

However, the percentage of Pilot Miscontrol accidents (those related to stick-and-rudder errors) is about the same. 62% for Light Sports, 60% for Cessna 172s. Ten percent of the Light Sport accidents involved taildraggers, so that would account for the difference.

Ron Wanttaja
 
wanttaja said:
Dark blue bars denotes the accidents which happened to holders of a Class 3 medical or above (the data pre-dates Basic Med).

I don't see a major impact of Sport Pilot. At the most, we're seeing two or three accidents a year due to incapacitation of a Sport Pilot....that's, roughly, 0.1% of US aircraft accidents. I suspect the FAA found the same results, which led to the expansion via MOSAIC.
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Ron, are the yellow bars pilots with SP tickets, or do they include pilots with higher certificates but no medicals, flying under SP rules?
 
wanttaja said:
I took a look at the "Pilot Incapacitation" accident rates a few years back. This is for all aircraft types, not just homebuilts.
View attachment 143237
Dark blue bars denotes the accidents which happened to holders of a Class 3 medical or above (the data pre-dates Basic Med).

I don't see a major impact of Sport Pilot. At the most, we're seeing two or three accidents a year due to incapacitation of a Sport Pilot....that's, roughly, 0.1% of US aircraft accidents. I suspect the FAA found the same results, which led to the expansion via MOSAIC.

Ron Wanttaja
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IMO incapacitation is less of a concern than diminished capacity. Like Mr Magoo taking off from the taxiway at OSH yesterday. Same guy apparently landed wrong direction the day prior.
 
Half Fast said:
Ron, are the yellow bars pilots with SP tickets, or do they include pilots with higher certificates but no medicals, flying under SP rules?
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Yellow bars are both pilots with SP tickets, as well as pilots with other ratings whose medicals date at least two year prior to the accident.

The list includes eight persons with Private certificates, and one each Commercial and ATP. Only one had just a Sport Pilot certificate. Two cases where the certificate isn't listed, both flying Light Sport-elligible aircraft.

The ATP's last medical, in fact, was nine years prior to the accident. The Commercial, it was just four years.

Ron Wanttaja
 
wanttaja said:
The list includes eight persons with Private certificates, and one each Commercial and ATP. Only one had just a Sport Pilot certificate.
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That would seem to say that the adequacy of SP training isn't an issue, though of course it's a small data set. I did all my training, both SP and PP, is LSAs, and they are indeed more challenging to land than larger planes. The first time I few a Cherokee I felt like it had autoland.
 
Half Fast said:
That would seem to say that the adequacy of SP training isn't an issue, though of course it's a small data set. I did all my training, both SP and PP, is LSAs, and they are indeed more challenging to land than larger planes. The first time I few a Cherokee I felt like it had autoland.
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Yeah but LSAs are so much more fun for simple recreational flying with spacious cockpits , awesome visibility and overall feel more like sport cars than a minivan … I am willing to pay the price in the form of lighter wing loading and more challenging landings .. I only fly for fun and mostly on nice weather days anyway -:)
 
Warmi said:
Yeah but LSAs are so much more fun for simple recreational flying with spacious cockpits , awesome visibility and overall feel more like sport cars than a minivan … I am willing to pay the price in the form of lighter wing loading and more challenging landings .. I only fly for fun and mostly on nice weather days anyway -:)
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Oh, I agree. I flew a buddy's 172 at the same time I was training in a Tecnam, and it was like going from a Miata to an F150. Still, I prefer my Beech to an LSA, as it's much better for taking trips with my wife. Roomy, comfortable, can haul plenty of luggage, etc. XC can be done with LSAs, but it's akin to travelling by motorcycle.
 
Half Fast said:
You probably don't realize it yet, but from a purely financial standpoint that upcoming baby wasn't the wisest of decisions. But it's nothing that can't be fixed with a second job....
:biggrin:
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Yep! The most expensive thing I had (the wife) brought me some even more expensive things (children) but as it turns out, they are worth the cost ...
 
Learnin’ to fly… said:
Good adds to be sure - but some of the exuberance of “I’m gonna fly a 250 knot multi engine retract with CS props at night on a drivers license medical” may be just a bit optimistic .
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You were good up to that night part.

A sport plane is good to go at night if properly equipped. The sport pilot can do it but they still must have a medical.
 
As prophesied in the opening post, this [student] sport pilot flew a Cherokee for the first time today!!*

*with a CFI of course

If I time it correctly I can be among the first sport pilots to solo one of them :cool:
 
bflynn said:
You were good up to that night part.

A sport plane is good to go at night if properly equipped. The sport pilot can do it but they still must have a medical.
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That seems like a distinction without a difference, at least for a current PP.
 
t3chiman said:
The US old-timers are not interested in GA in the slightest. The imaginative Eastern European guys, maybe; some nifty aircraft models out there, soon to be marketed to the US. But for sheer innovation, it’s tough to beat the Chinese these days. Case in point: the Jiangling Motors SC-01. The dimensions of a Miata; 0-60 under three seconds; priced at $32k. That’s pretty extreme. But they produce plenty of decent quality cars that sell for under $10k.

Imagine what Chinese engineers could come up with, given a clean slate for airframe, powerplant, and avionics. A simple two-place, 100hp, modern electronics, for $75k, delivered? I think they can pull it off.
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the chinese steal. they dont invent. stole all of tesla’s technology because musk insisted on opening plants in china
 
Hang 4 said:
That seems like a distinction without a difference, at least for a current PP.
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It depends. We (my three partners and I) have an RV-12 that is equipped for night flight with a landing light and nav/beacons. We have one ATP who, I think, still holds a medical. One PP with a medical. One PP with no medical and not on Basic Med. Not sure abotu the fourth, I'm pretty sure he's PP-ASEL. One former partner was a Sport Pilot. The guys with medicals can legally fly at night. I can't, nor could our SP holder before he left. Half an hour before sunrise to half an hour after sunset is all... which is why I installed the lights. But a couple of the guys regularly fly at night.
 
wellknow said:
the chinese steal. they dont invent. stole all of tesla’s technology because musk insisted on opening plants in china
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That kind of attitude is an easy trap to fall into. Historically the Chinese seem to have had no problem using everyone else's work. To think, though, that there are 1.4+ billion people in that country who are so fundamentally different from us and everyone else that they aren't capable of or are simply too lazy to come up with their own ideas for doing new things or improving existing ones - that's a good way to end up getting our asses handed to us by people we've severely underestimated.
 
DaleB said:
That kind of attitude is an easy trap to fall into. Historically the Chinese seem to have had no problem using everyone else's work. To think, though, that there are 1.4+ billion people in that country who are so fundamentally different from us and everyone else that they aren't capable of or are simply too lazy to come up with their own ideas for doing new things or improving existing ones - that's a good way to end up getting our asses handed to us by people we've severely underestimated.
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The problem is not the people but the system , ultimately they are still laboring under what is essentially a dictatorial system where costs and rewards calculations are not very predictable or stable or market driven (in the long run )
 
Hang 4 said:
That seems like a distinction without a difference, at least for a current PP.
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The relevant piece is that a medical is required to fly at night. MOSAIC adds the ability of sport pilots to fly at night.

For a PP, you can’t just dump your medical unless you restrict yourself to SP limits.
 
bflynn said:
The relevant piece is that a medical is required to fly at night. MOSAIC adds the ability of sport pilots to fly at night.

For a PP, you can’t just dump your medical unless you restrict yourself to SP limits.
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Think we're saying the same thing. My point was that MOSAIC doesn't mean you can drop your medical without some consequence. Night flying and more than one passenger seem to be the most notable.
 
bflynn said:
The relevant piece is that a medical is required to fly at night. MOSAIC adds the ability of sport pilots to fly at night.

For a PP, you can’t just dump your medical unless you restrict yourself to SP limits.
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Hang 4 said:
Think we're saying the same thing. My point was that MOSAIC doesn't mean you can drop your medical without some consequence. Night flying and more than one passenger seem to be the most notable.
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Y’all are both ignoring BasicMed. Part 68 is not an FAA medical certificate.
 
DaleB said:
That kind of attitude is an easy trap to fall into. Historically the Chinese seem to have had no problem using everyone else's work. To think, though, that there are 1.4+ billion people in that country who are so fundamentally different from us and everyone else that they aren't capable of or are simply too lazy to come up with their own ideas for doing new things or improving existing ones - that's a good way to end up getting our asses handed to us by people we've severely underestimated.
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that was in response to the sc car selling for 32k. it’s a lot easier to produce cheap cars when you have stolen the technology and refined it. and there is something deeply ugly about a country and culture so debased that they have built an entire bullying economy and military based on thievery. and we don’t even need to go intot he genocide of Muslims. can they learn to innovate? perhaps. but let’s not be so quick to laud their genius.
 
Half Fast said:
Oh, I agree. I flew a buddy's 172 at the same time I was training in a Tecnam, and it was like going from a Miata to an F150. Still, I prefer my Beech to an LSA, as it's much better for taking trips with my wife. Roomy, comfortable, can haul plenty of luggage, etc. XC can be done with LSAs, but it's akin to travelling by motorcycle.
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You mentioned Cessna model 172 but what model Tecnam?
 
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