More out of control cops
- Thread starter timwinters
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timwinters
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The article you linked states:
I did and paused it numerous times in the exact location of the photo with the red circle in the article and...no...no I can't.
Honestly it looks like the taser wire was photoshopped in. Especially because if you follow the angle of the wire to Slager's body, the dart would be attached to his chin.
Color me unconvinced and I'll remain so until a real media outlet includes this in their coverage.
timwinters
Ejection Handle Pulled
Here is a tip...... Don't break the law and the cops will leave you alone. Been working fine for me for the past 40ish years, cept' for that time I was doin' 90 on the freeway on my bike. But I don't blame the cop for giving me a coupon to traffic court either.I can take my lumps when I'm wrong.
Says the man who has never broken a law...ever!. Not for 40 years!
Wow, I'm impressed. You're likely the only in the country.
Well, okay, just once, he says, I promise he says.
3393RP
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3393RP
WTF is "soft body armor"? Whatever they were wearing was going to stop a little screwdriver, that is if the guy managed to get the drop on them and plunge it into them with sufficient force which wasn't likely since they were prepared for confrontation. Get real, this BS about the 'strike zone' and how anything is a deadly weapon is overblown crap.
Yeah, a guy standing five feet away from a cop with a four inch long screwdriver isn't going to kill him. There, I said it.
The cops were overdramatic ******* that had been watching too much TV. Two of them with clubs, pepper spray, and Tasers against a befuddled guy with mental problems.
They screamed at him and shot him five times instead of saying, 'Hey, we aren't going to hurt you, let's go outside and talk, OK?'
If they are that afraid of doing their job they need to get a different line of work.
JCranford
En-Route
Soft body armor genius is what uniformed cops wear. It is not puncture resistant.
As opposed to hard armor which is what soldiers and SWAT cops wear.
Now pay attention. Notice I never said the guys in Dallas, or the SC cop, or that idiot in Oklahoma yesterday, did their jobs correctly. For the record the Oklahoma guy clearly screwed the pooch. The SC guy isn't looking too good either. The Dallas guys? Dunno, could gone either way. What I Do know for a fact, is that YOU wernt there. Maybe the screwdriver couldn't kill me. I don't what a punctured lung either. Or lose an eye. Or any other serious bodily injury. If they thought any of that was going to happen. Somebody's getting shot.
Maybe deploy a taser. Maybe not. Really depends on how quickly things went to sh&t.
One other thing I'd bet a lot of money on. Ive been in a LOT more 'situations' than YOU. If you've spoken harshly (except on the internet of course) to someone since you were 14 I's be shocked.
Oh and 47PILOT, I guess I read that statement perfectly, didn't I?
You two can take your BS Liberal sensitivities and stick em
As opposed to hard armor which is what soldiers and SWAT cops wear.
Now pay attention. Notice I never said the guys in Dallas, or the SC cop, or that idiot in Oklahoma yesterday, did their jobs correctly. For the record the Oklahoma guy clearly screwed the pooch. The SC guy isn't looking too good either. The Dallas guys? Dunno, could gone either way. What I Do know for a fact, is that YOU wernt there. Maybe the screwdriver couldn't kill me. I don't what a punctured lung either. Or lose an eye. Or any other serious bodily injury. If they thought any of that was going to happen. Somebody's getting shot.
Maybe deploy a taser. Maybe not. Really depends on how quickly things went to sh&t.
One other thing I'd bet a lot of money on. Ive been in a LOT more 'situations' than YOU. If you've spoken harshly (except on the internet of course) to someone since you were 14 I's be shocked.
Oh and 47PILOT, I guess I read that statement perfectly, didn't I?
You two can take your BS Liberal sensitivities and stick em
ClimbnSink
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Greg
Hear that folks you got a cop here willing to kill you whenever he's scared. We need more Dorners. That guy brought in some sunlight.
poadeleted21
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there's that cop 'tude we all know and umm loathe
PROTIP: You're not doing your PR department any favors.
timwinters
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@jcranford
In reviewing all your posts in this thread I can't help but to notice that you never once mention trying to deescalate the various situations as a potential solution.
Just sayin'...
In reviewing all your posts in this thread I can't help but to notice that you never once mention trying to deescalate the various situations as a potential solution.
Just sayin'...
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Florida Cracker
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Florida Cracker
De-escalation seems to have gone the way of the dodo bird.
Now SWAT and tanks is the order of the day, and the constitution, or logical, reasonable behavior be damned.
Now SWAT and tanks is the order of the day, and the constitution, or logical, reasonable behavior be damned.
DavidH
Pre-Flight
If the job is so bad, why do it? The pay is obviously poor. What is the motivation? One can be paid much better in other lines of work... and not have to be in a "situation".
JCranford
En-Route
I reviewed 'all my posts' too and I really never addressed tactics one way or the other. I corrected misinformation other people were stating as fact. And called out a couple of guy who are talking out their a$$es.
There's a whole buncha ways to handle just about any thing that comes up.
DavidH - Where did I ever say the job was bad? The 'bad' part is people who have no clue trying to tell me how to do it. And I don't really mind the occasional 'situation'...
DavidH
Pre-Flight
You did seem worried about being stabbed with a screwdriver and alluded to the fact that someone was likely to get shot if you were in that situation. I know those weren't your exact words... but that's what was implied. I can't seem to wrap my head around why a person would want to be put in that scenario.
The only conclusion that I've been able to come to is that it is enjoyable on some level... maybe it's the rush of the "situation"
If that's not it... then what is it?
3393RP
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3393RP
Liberal...LOL
I am a Libertarian and totally against the nanny giveaway state that Obama has built...but I also have a brain. Cops signed on for a dangerous job. If they are shooting a guy when he is more than arm's length away from them, holding a tiny little screwdriver and making no threatening moves or statements maybe they should get a different job.
It sounds like those two signed on so they could wear all that shiny stuff, not because they have any altruistic motives.
You say you'll shoot someone before you expose yourself to any physical danger? That's brave.
And you don't have a clue what I've done in the past. You are the one using the internet to puff up your chest, not me.
47PILOT
Pre-takeoff checklist
Soft body armor genius is what uniformed cops wear. It is not puncture resistant.
ok, so this is actually laughable on sooooo many levels.
"armor" isn't puncture resistant??
At the risk of insulting your intelligence, do you see a problem with this statement?
By the way, your attitude, not surprisingly, SUCKS !!
Jay Honeck
Touchdown! Greaser!
As I've said earlier in this thread, and in other similar threads, the cops are losing the support of the community. Count me among them. (I have never had trouble with any bad guys. I have had multiple problems with police, near my home and business, in two different states.)
When you lose my support, you guys have lost EVERYTHING. I'm a middle aged, white male, Chamber of Commerce business owner, for Chrissakes. You can't GET more conservative than me!
Take this as a friendly warning: Get your **** together, please. Our country needs you to get this right, or you become the enemy -- and NO ONE wants that.
When you lose my support, you guys have lost EVERYTHING. I'm a middle aged, white male, Chamber of Commerce business owner, for Chrissakes. You can't GET more conservative than me!
Take this as a friendly warning: Get your **** together, please. Our country needs you to get this right, or you become the enemy -- and NO ONE wants that.
Clark1961
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LE are trained that anyone with a hand weapon within 21 feet of them is a serious threat. There are good reasons for that training. What they aren't trained to do is asses when they should retreat. The training failure is why so many folks have died needlessly.
One of the general workplace rules in America is that no one should have to die to do their job. I agree with that rule and think it should include LE on both sides - neither LE has to die nor someone they are contacting. We need LE to train to that standard, not the current "better them than us" standard.
denverpilot
Tied Down
You really just said that, Tim? "A real media outlet"? LOL. What is that in this day and age?
I wouldn't trust ANY "media outlet" these days with anything more important than a traffic report, and they can't even get those right.
Real investigative journalism? Good luck.
denverpilot
Tied Down
I hit this point a few years ago and have a number of friends in LE. I've been quietly warning them that they need to clean house of their problem children and do it fast, or they're going to live through hell on earth.
They generally think nothing is wrong. Or they're not willing to bust the Thin Blue Line to take care of the problems in-house.
What did it for me is starting to review the cases and real serious money that the cities are expending to defend bad cops. When I found there is a Denver City and County cop who's spent more than $2M in taxpayer money for his defense who has a stack of paper two or three inches thick in actual excessive force real cases, not just the complaints that are brushed aside before they go anywhere, and at least three large scale court cases where he was "reprimanded" and put back on the street... I realized the system is busted. That or they need their pit bull, and they'd do anything to keep him.
Either way, it's not sustainable.
I'm all for reassessing LE pay scales to match others with life and death decisions (doctors, lawyers, etc.), upping the mandatory training, certifications, and making a degree a requirement, and removing the government liability shield completely from the job. You screw up, you get liability insurance just like my Doctor carries, and I or my family can sue you for everything you own.
That's the only way to up the professionalism in the job. If you can't compete and don't make the cut, you don't get the job. And we have to pay commensurately.
We The People created the current problem. We wanted CHEAP cops. We essentially gave them immunity and promised we would pay for their DEFENSE in Court when they transgress against US. Is that the ultate in stupidity, or what?
And now we have them. Cheap cops. What does anyone expect? They often don't earn what your plumber makes. Or your automotive repair guy. But you handed them the most mediocre guns money can buy (Glock, S&W M&P, other essential "Tupperware" pistols and a nice AR-15 in the trunk), didn't require a degree, let alone an advance one, no mandatory recurrence training on their own dime (no skin in the game if classes are paid for by us), and crap for salary, and got some great folks who are good people and a significant but smaller number of really dumb meatheads who have little self-control.
What do you expect with that kind of hiring and a setup with no personal threat of bankruptcy when lethal force is used inappropriately. Really?
People wanted the easy out. The cheap solution. They've got it in spades now and wonder "what went wrong"? LMAO.
Time to make it a real profession with professional personal liability commensurate with carrying around a deadly weapon. How many years do you have to stand around and watch as a young doctor candidate before you're allowed to even get near a tough case where you might kill the patient? If you do, is there an unlimited fund pool of borrowed money from the patients themselves and even bonds and loans that the patients have to pay back over decades, funding your defense?
We've totally screwed up as a society by not making LE a professional position that requires incredible amounts of effort to even become one, and yet can also pay commensurately and handsomely if you're damned good at it. Great cops are psychologists treating the people they meet daily, mercenaries, marksmen... You name it, we expect a lot of Officers. What we didn't do was pay appropriately and tie significant life-changing consequences to screwing it up. It's an important job in our society.
We cheated to get the price tag down, and signed away all the liability that should go along with carrying a gun for a living.
No consequences, bad behavior by a percentage, was and still is, completely expected when you view it from that angle.
Criminal liability is low. The municipal lawyers are practiced and up to speed on how to defend almost anything a cop does. Civil liability is non-existent. That's what gives the inappropriate sense of superiority and built the problems we have today.
Want sanity in LE. Put professional liability for and the payment for screwing it up, back on the officers. And triple the pay scale or they'll all quit en masse.
Then make the pay scale competitive, and tie the whole department's pay to a third party audit where significant money is taken from the pockets of even the good cops when the bad ones do bad things, whether directly or in the form of significantly higher professional insurance rates.
It's a thought anyway. If you keep doing what you always did, you'll get what you always got... Time to change the game.
It's not an easy job. Neither is being a heart surgeon. One seems to do pretty well if they do the job right. The other? Not paid very well. Not for the level of responsibility they hold.
But if we commit to paying up, we also have to remove the liability veil and stop being the deep pockets for defense against someone acting inappropriately toward fellow Citizens.
^^^none of the above will ever happen. People will say the current broken system is "fine" when they see the price tag of a professional LE paid enough to carry their own personal
Liability insurance.
timwinters
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ClimbnSink
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Greg
Anyone who thinks the bad cop problem stems from low pay needs to look up what cops are paid in the Northeast. Like winning the lottery. Another reason not to mess with the blue line, as these guys wouldn't make that money anywhere else.
timwinters
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I haven't spent a lot of time (working) across the North Atlantic states but I did in MI, OH, N. PA, and NW NY. And, yeah, across that region cops make a good living.
I definitely saw a lot more professionalism and a lot less "Barney Fife syndrome" in that area though than I did in, say, Shreveport, Gulfport, Birmingham, Augusta, etc., where cops are paid crap by comparison.
JCranford
En-Route
DenverPilot - Thank you! That made a lot of sense (well, at least until you started talking about guns... :wink2.
I'd love to address some of your points but you guys clearly don't read what I write anyway.
47PILOT - Go do you own research. Ive been wearing Kevlar a looong time. I know what it can and cant do. But you just want to argue, so whatever. Here's your license to learn on your own.
.I'd love to address some of your points but you guys clearly don't read what I write anyway.
47PILOT - Go do you own research. Ive been wearing Kevlar a looong time. I know what it can and cant do. But you just want to argue, so whatever. Here's your license to learn on your own.
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In NJ the cops are paid twice the national average; however, the pay in the trouble spots like Newark, Camden and Jersey City are much lower. My small beach town salary without overtime is over $100,000. My buddy makes over $100,000 without overtime and he has only been a cop for 6 years. He can retire at 40. It's a great job if you can get it.
JCranford
En-Route
You did seem worried about being stabbed with a screwdriver and alluded to the fact that someone was likely to get shot if you were in that situation. I know those weren't your exact words... but that's what was implied. I can't seem to wrap my head around why a person would want to be put in that scenario.
The only conclusion that I've been able to come to is that it is enjoyable on some level... maybe it's the rush of the "situation"
If that's not it... then what is it?
Im concerned about being stabbed by anything, including a screwdriver. Arent you?? I personally am going to take steps up to and including shooting someone, in order to avoid getting stabbed. That said, if theres a better way to not get stabbed than shooting the guy, I'm all for it. Its different for each 'situation'.
I know you cant wrap your head around someone putting themselves in that type of situation. Most people cant. That's why guys like you, need guys like me. Me? I need Firemen. I don't run INTO the burning building. I run OUT of the burning building. And accountants. I run AWAY from the IRS, not TOWARDS them.
And yes, some 'situations' are a rush. I also skydive, so clearly I DO like a rush.
paflyer
Final Approach
Cops are no longer trained to deescalate; you must submit or die.
1600vw
Pattern Altitude
If you must defend yourself from someone with a screw driver by shooting them you need to take some self defense classes.
We are talking about people here, so that building I am running to it not away.
WOW....
Tony
1600vw
Pattern Altitude
Now I understand...We have pu##ies for cops. They are scared of everything and the only way to deal with it is with a gun. They can not get hurt if they do not get close. Pi#s one of these guys off and they will shoot you in the back if needed. I totally understand now.
Wow Wow Wow.
Wow Wow Wow.
EdFred
Taxi to Parking
There is, and you need some additional training beyond what the academy gives you. I will let a guy come at me with a screwdriver all day, every day and have no issue with it. He'll end up pinned on the ground and the screwdriver will lay harmlessly next to him. No shots fires, no beating the crap out of him, no punching and kicking him. A simple pin, and no injuries unless he continues to struggle.
The close quarters training you guys get is pathetic. I saw that first hand when they would come to class and we would present them with a "how would you handle this?" situation. That was the one plus about teaching MA: Getting to throw the cops around and make them feel a little pain, legally.
JCranford
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Well, at least you guys are the ones that have to resort to name calling.
1600vw
Pattern Altitude
JCranford When you became a police officer you understood you might be putting yourself in conditions or places that you might get hurt. If you are worried that much about getting hurt you need a desk job.
Get some training and you will not be scared of some dude with a screw driver. Some person with a screw driver will never be a threat if you know how to handle yourself. I myself would rip someones head off with me hands if they threaten me with a screw driver. I don't need a gun.
But I lived in a time when you got into fist fights walking home from school everyday. One did not turn to a gun, they turned to an fighting instructor or someone to teach them to fight. It sounds like you need some street fight training.
Tony.
Get some training and you will not be scared of some dude with a screw driver. Some person with a screw driver will never be a threat if you know how to handle yourself. I myself would rip someones head off with me hands if they threaten me with a screw driver. I don't need a gun.
But I lived in a time when you got into fist fights walking home from school everyday. One did not turn to a gun, they turned to an fighting instructor or someone to teach them to fight. It sounds like you need some street fight training.
Tony.
JCranford
En-Route
Ed, obviously you have some MA training. Youre up north but maybe we can meet in Missouri or somewhere and Ill have a go at stabbing you with a screwdriver. Ill probably lose in the end, but youll still get stabbed a few times. If you believe that your art is sufficient to deal with a street type issue with an armed individual, I submit that you've bought in to the hype of your style and / or train in the dojo too much (this coming from a TKD / BJJ / judo background).
And yes, we both agree that the defensive training supplied to cadets at the academy are pathetic at best. Instead of 'throwing the cops around and making them feel some pain legally', maybe you could have taught them some tactics instead.
ClimbnSink
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Greg
Nah, wouldn't work. He would shoot the street fight trainer before the trainer got close enough to teach him anything.
JCranford
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H.A.S, you don't know a thing about me or my training and background. Don't pretend you do. 'Putting yourself in conditions or places that you might get hurt' is vastly different than letting yourself get stabbed with anything.
Lets just leave it at 'you don't know me, I don't know you, and we'll (thankfully) never meet' and end all the (one sided) name calling.
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EdFred
Taxi to Parking
We did. That was the whole point of them coming to us.
As far as the "hey, lets try this," that can only end badly. I can't "take it easy" on you if you're going to give me a legitimate attack. And without a legitimate attack, it's going to be watered down. Yeah, I've been "stabbed" in the dojo a few times, but never in a vital area. I'll take a screwdriver over a double edged knife, and hell, at 5 feet, I'd take a gun being pointed at me over a double edged knife. I will probably burn my hand, but handgun takeaways are easier than knife takeaways.
FastEddieB
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Fast Eddie B
I have it on good authority that the ratio of incidents where a subject is successfully "talked down" or otherwise taken into custody without serious injury, to deadly force encounters is 1,119,752/1.
Actually, I just made that up.
If we're just playing dueling anecdotes, my personal ratio was 800+/0. And I did help in disarming a subject with a screwdriver by "swarming" him. Shooting him never entered anyone's mind.
Anyway, making up stats and trends and "widespread problems" without basis is so endemic to this thread, I just wanted to fit in.
Actually, I just made that up.
If we're just playing dueling anecdotes, my personal ratio was 800+/0. And I did help in disarming a subject with a screwdriver by "swarming" him. Shooting him never entered anyone's mind.
Anyway, making up stats and trends and "widespread problems" without basis is so endemic to this thread, I just wanted to fit in.
JBHusted
Pre-Flight
That right there is the most insightful reply to the thread.
Maybe it is because of the explosion of social media, cell phones, and the GoPro camera. . .but whatever it is, we see a LOT more individual cases of law enforcement acting in a manner we (as older, white, wealthier, and law abiding to a fault) are not comfortable with.
And I think there is also a healthy dose of "this country isn't what it used to be, there's nothing I can do about it, and Law Enforcement just happens to be the most visible arm of an increasingly overreaching government."
Since I joined this forum with my real name rather than a "pen name", I won't say more. And the fact that I have to even make that comment demonstrates other problems with the country :-(
I miss America.
SoonerAviator
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Big talk about ripping people's heads off
. Taking the job "to protect and serve" does not mean you eliminate all of your personal concern and self-preservation instincts. It means you accept the possibility, but will take appropriate steps to mitigate or eliminate the threat. It's always easy to play "armchair LEO" after the fact, and claim you would have taken the guy with a screwdriver/knife down with one arm tied behind your back. However, the reality is often that people are unpredictable both in their mental processes and their fighting tactics. When you corner many animals, they will fight in a precarious manner.Most of the police officers I personally know are excellent LEOs and excellent humans in general. There are always guys who abuse the badge or escalate situations unnecessarily, which is true of most any job. I firmly believe that, for most departments, the bad ones are much more the exception than the rule.
EdFred
Taxi to Parking
Big talk about ripping people's heads off
Most of the police officers I personally know are excellent LEOs and excellent humans in general. There are always guys who abuse the badge or escalate situations unnecessarily, which is true of most any job. I firmly believe that, for most departments, the bad ones are much more the exception than the rule.
Depends on your definition of bad. For me, if you are a 'good' cop, and turn a blind eye to the 'bad' cops in your department, then you are just as bad as the bad cop you are ignoring. Clean out the damn system already.
FastEddieB
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EdFred
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I was really just addressing the last sentence. I probably should have only quoted that part. For me it comes down to this. Cop A is a 'perfect' cop: Never escalates the situation, does everything correctly, no incidents, no reprimands, basically everything the public would look at and go, "we need more like him." Then we have Cop B, the bad apple: Repeated use of excessive force, a complete dickbag, has a chip on his shoulder, and is out to show everyone he is in charge and you damn well better listen to him.
If Cop A knows all about this and does nothing to reel in/turn in/report Cop B, then in my book Cop A is just as bad as Cop B. And since these guys continue to have jobs, continue to be bullies, and no one in the department does anything about it, then sorry, the whole department is bad.
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