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asechrest

asechrest

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asechrest
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Ya'll are my virtual mechanics and I really appreciate the help you have all given me in the past. My last thread was about rebuilding a crashed car for my family. Looks like the decision is imminent, because here's the latest issue on my daily driver.

2003 Toyota Corolla, manual transmission, 227k miles (vaaaast majority highway). After exiting the highway from a trip across FL on Sunday night, I noticed a noise I haven't heard before. I can only describe it as a low growling when at speed and in gear. The moment I take it out of gear it ceases. I hear it around 50 mph, whether giving it some gas or letting off the pedal (but still in gear). The fact that pulling it out of gear stops it seems to preclude something like wheel bearings or tire noise. The fact that it ceases when out of gear also means I can't reproduce the noise in my driveway to try to diagnose.

Here's a YT video of the noise. About 23 seconds in it's most pronounced. You can hear it get a touch louder as I give it a little gas, then a touch softer as I left off the gas, then stop when I take it out of gear and coast.

My concern is that it's the transmission after reading that 2003 Corollas had manual transmission issues. Thanks in advance.


[EDIT] - To help you hear it, it's the sort of background growling/grinding noise (not the dull hum of the tires, or the rattle of the door you can hear briefly toward the end of the video).
 
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Sounds like it might be a throwout bearing or flywheel problem, but that's certainly not definitive. Does the sound stop when you keep it in gear but disengage the clutch? (Pedal down = disengaged.)

-Rich
 
It's probably the transaxle, but occasionally wheel bearings or driveshafts make noise only under load.

Can you hear ANYTHING in neutral? Transmission guts are still moving in neutral; they just aren't connected to each other.

Do you hear the noise at the same RPM in all gears, or is it a function of vehicle speed?

Does it make a difference if you touch the brakes?

Is the noise completely gone in 4th? That's a common symptom of a fried transaxle input bearing, though I think your problem is on the output side somewhere (there is a factor of 3 or so gear reduction in the differential).

The leading cause of dead manual transmissions is oil starvation. Any tranny leaks?
 
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RJM62 said:
Sounds like it might be a throwout bearing or flywheel problem, but that's certainly not definitive. Does the sound stop when you keep it in gear but disengage the clutch? (Pedal down = disengaged.)

-Rich
Click to expand...

No. No clutch bearings behave differently in neutral than in gear. The symptoms described exclude a clutch.

"Flywheel problems" result in clutch chatter, not that sort of noise. About all that can happen is that it can crack due to excessive heat. It's not like automatic transmission flex plates.

The test is a good release bearing test, but the vehicle must also be stopped. That's the only way to completely immobilize a transmission with the engine running.
 
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RJM62 said:
Sounds like it might be a throwout bearing or flywheel problem, but that's certainly not definitive. Does the sound stop when you keep it in gear but disengage the clutch? (Pedal down = disengaged.)

-Rich
Click to expand...

That's a good question. I'll try it shortly.
 
MAKG1 said:
It's probably the transaxle, but occasionally wheel bearings or driveshafts make noise only under load.

Can you hear ANYTHING in neutral? Transmission guts are still moving in neutral; they just aren't connected to each other.

Do you hear the noise at the same RPM in all gears, or is it a function of vehicle speed?

Does it make a difference if you touch the brakes?

Is the noise completely gone in 4th? That's a common symptom of a fried transaxle input bearing, though I think your problem is on the output side somewhere (there is a factor of 3 or so gear reduction in the differential).

The leading cause of dead manual transmissions is oil starvation. Any tranny leaks?
Click to expand...

Heading out for another test drive. Back shortly.
 
MAKG1 said:
No. No clutch bearings behave differently in neutral than in gear. The symptoms described exclude a clutch.

"Flywheel problems" result in clutch chatter, not that sort of noise. About all that can happen is that it can crack due to excessive heat. It's not like automatic transmission flex plates.

The test is a good release bearing test, but the vehicle must also be stopped. That's the only way to completely immobilize a transmission with the engine running.
Click to expand...

I stand corrected.

-Rich
 
I'm back:

Definitely disappears the moment I disengage the clutch, no matter whether left in gear or not. I can't really hear it until fourth gear, and I hear it in both fourth and fifth, which is around 42 - 50 mph. If I'm giving it enough gas to hold steady speed, it's a constant rattle/growl. If I let off the gas, it disappears for a third of a second while the car transitions from accel to decel, then I hear it again and it fades out as I lose speed. Back on the gas and I hear it again. Pressing the brakes doesn't appear to affect it.

I hear nothing in neutral. The sound is gone the moment the clutch is disengaged. And I was unable to reproduce the sound in my driveway at any RPM, so it's definitely while under load.

I have not noted any leaks under the car. I've never changed the transmisson fluid, though. :redface:

Some light reading indicates '03 manual transmissions have some issues. But at 227k miles, I'd say the old girl has done well.
 
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My NVH (Noise Vibration and Harshness) guy is out of the office but should be back on Wednesday. I'll try and remember to ask him to run the video through his equipment.
 
Wondering if I should change the transmission fluid on the off chance that'll do something? I'm going out to check the fluid level now.
 
asechrest said:
Wondering if I should change the transmission fluid on the off chance that'll do something? I'm going out to check the fluid level now.
Click to expand...

That wont help. Take it to a transmission shop, and ask them to take it for a test drive.
 
I suspect a final drive bearing.

A word about testing, though.

Drive it like you stole it. Those DOHC Toyota engines can scream up to the redline. You won't break it. In fact your mileage may even be better if you cruise it at 2500 instead of the <2000 you normally do.

Try your 50 MPH in every gear but 1st and see if it makes that noise in all gears at the same road speed.

You'll like that car a lot better if you accelerate onto the freeway at 6000 RPM. And it can take it, at least once the transmission is repaired. It will seem like a much more powerful car (which, in fact, it would be).

Once you hear noise, it's too late for a fluid change. It may prevent further damage, but it won't put metal back on the gears and bearings.

If the fluid is very low and especially if it's battleship gray, that would confirm the fault.

One other test to rule out driveshafts. Corner hard and sharp (all the way to the stop). If the noise gets louder and especially if it clicks, that indicates a bad shaft. This is a good answer. A driveshaft costs 1/10 of a transmission.
 
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I'd be happy to try and help you out diagnosing this. However, the last time you asked for help with your car you just left us hanging. That's really bad form IMO.

I would jack the front off the ground, you can leave the tires on. Put it in neutral. Rotate each tire by hand with your ear to the center of the wheel listening for any grinding, rubbing, etc. you may hear some out of the brake pads, that isn't what I'm talking about. If both sides are smooth go to the next step below.

If you hear nothing. With jack stands under the car, tires on, start it. Put it in each gear, let the clutch out, get under it being careful of moving parts and listen. You can use a piece of house to amplify, put one end on different parts of the transmission holding the other to your ear. I agree with the prior post in that I would focus on the output area of the transmission first.

Let us know
 
Alexb2000 said:
I'd be happy to try and help you out diagnosing this. However, the last time you asked for help with your car you just left us hanging. That's really bad form IMO.

I would jack the front off the ground, you can leave the tires on. Put it in neutral. Rotate each tire by hand with your ear to the center of the wheel listening for any grinding, rubbing, etc. you may hear some out of the brake pads, that isn't what I'm talking about. If both sides are smooth go to the next step below.

If you hear nothing. With jack stands under the car, tires on, start it. Put it in each gear, let the clutch out, get under it being careful of moving parts and listen. You can use a piece of house to amplify, put one end on different parts of the transmission holding the other to your ear. I agree with the prior post in that I would focus on the output area of the transmission first.

Let us know
Click to expand...
Which is better, gutter or brick? I suspect roof shingles would muffle the sound too much. :D ;)
 
I don't like to tell people to climb under a running car on jackstands. But if you must, do not do it alone, block the tires and use a secondary stand or some other backup to hold the car in case one stand tips.

An automotive stethoscope can be bought for around $5, though the tube method does work. Your diagnosis work will be better if you can inspect a working vehicle first. They make a lot of noises.

While we're jacking up, do a front end inspection (with the engine off!). This is fairly unlikely given the circumstances, but it's possible, and it's good process anyway. Grab the tire top and bottom and feel for play. Do the same thing left and right. Up/down play = balljoint. Left/right play = tie rod end. Both = wheel bearing, or both (tie rod ends and balljoints don't fail at the same time, so this possibility can be minimized with frequent inspections). Remove the wheel to probe further.

Front end inspections can be done in 5 minutes with a jack. Do not climb under the vehicle while it's on a jack. Get in the habit of doing that every few thousand miles (when rotating tires is a good time), or before any road trip.

Grab both driveshafts and look for play. It can often be hard to detect while installed, but if you find it, it's bad. Many Toyota FWDs have a center bearing on the right side driveshaft. Check that for play (and tight bolts), too, if installed. If you find play in an inboard joint, you may have difficulty telling if the play is in the shaft or the transmission. If it's in the transmission, it WILL leak out the axle seal. Play in the shaft can be confirmed only by removing it from the vehicle. Note that play may be difficult to detect if the suspension is extended, so you may have to place jackstands under the balljoints or run the vehicle on ramps in order to place the shaft in their normal operating configuration to find it.
 
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Alexb2000 said:
I'd be happy to try and help you out diagnosing this. However, the last time you asked for help with your car you just left us hanging. That's really bad form IMO.

I would jack the front off the ground, you can leave the tires on. Put it in neutral. Rotate each tire by hand with your ear to the center of the wheel listening for any grinding, rubbing, etc. you may hear some out of the brake pads, that isn't what I'm talking about. If both sides are smooth go to the next step below.

If you hear nothing. With jack stands under the car, tires on, start it. Put it in each gear, let the clutch out, get under it being careful of moving parts and listen. You can use a piece of house to amplify, put one end on different parts of the transmission holding the other to your ear. I agree with the prior post in that I would focus on the output area of the transmission first.

Let us know
Click to expand...

Thanks. Was the previous thread you're referencing the one about rough idle in cold weather? I've got to wait for the cold weather to see if it worked. :D We don't get much of it down here. Sorry if you felt I left you hanging; wasn't my intention.

Re: your steps above. I'll try step one tonight. A complication it's that I think my front wheel bearings need replacement, so I'm likely to hear a noise. I was planning to replace these myself since that's within my ability. Transmission probably isn't. But I guess I can move on to test 2 anyway.
 
asechrest said:
Thanks. Was the previous thread you're referencing the one about rough idle in cold weather? I've got to wait for the cold weather to see if it worked. :D We don't get much of it down here. Sorry if you felt I left you hanging; wasn't my intention.

Re: your steps above. I'll try step one tonight. A complication it's that I think my front wheel bearings need replacement, so I'm likely to hear a noise. I was planning to replace these myself since that's within my ability. Transmission probably isn't. But I guess I can move on to test 2 anyway.
Click to expand...

Understood, takes 5 seconds to say that, moving on...

Ok if you know you need wheel bearings, then try step 2, step 1 was for the wheel bearings only.

Also if you don't hear any thing or you aren't sure... Try having a friend snap the throttle while you listen. The weight of the tires will allow more load as you listen.

I would also check the fluid level while there.
 
Your wheel bearings are known bad?

That's rather important.

Replace the wheel bearings and see if the noise goes away.

I'm a little surprised that you're equipped to replace wheel bearings, but not a transmission. While wheel bearings can be done with hammers, large sockets snap ring pliers, and pipe sections, it sure is a lot easier with a press. R/Ring a transaxle requires a flatbed jack (last I looked, $60 at Harbor Freight). A RWD aluminum transmission can often be yanked with one's bare hands (they are significantly lighter as they don't contain the differential as well).
 
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As an aside, my interest in maintaining my vehicle is a fairly recent development. I've made many mistakes with my current car and it has been very forgiving in my opinion. I went make these same mistakes with my next vehicle.

I am also a little concerned about crawling under the car while it's in gear and running. I have two jack stands and a floor jack, but my driveway is slightly inclined. Please check the west FL papers for a guy named Adam getting crushed by his Corolla. :D

I may do the front end tests, and then take it to a shop to diagnose. If it's significant transmission work, I'll probably opt not to repair given its age, mileage, and condition.
 
MAKG1 said:
Your wheel bearings are known bad?

That's rather important.

Replace the wheel bearings and see if the noise goes away.

I'm a little surprised that you're equipped to replace wheel bearings, but not a transmission. While wheel bearings can be done with hammers, large sockets snap ring pliers, and pipe sections, it sure is a lot easier with a press. R/Ring a transaxle requires a flatbed jack (last I looked, $60 at Harbor Freight). A RWD aluminum transmission can often be yanked with one's bare hands (they are significantly lighter as they don't contain the differential as well).
Click to expand...

Understand that I drive this car to death, and a number of things are coming to a head. I've got a slight hum at speed that is either tires or wheel bearings. Bearings are original. Tires are ready for replacement.

Noise as described in OP is new as of Sunday. Bearings I've done the research on and believe I can do. I know nothing about transmission. Also my car is FWD, yes?

Thanks.
 
The easiest way to check wheel bearings is to load/unload the bearings by turning left/right while driving. If there is noise when turning left, the right bearing is NG and vice versa.
 
Alexb2000 said:
Understood, takes 5 seconds to say that, moving on...

Ok if you know you need wheel bearings, then try step 2, step 1 was for the wheel bearings only.

Also if you don't hear any thing or you aren't sure... Try having a friend snap the throttle while you listen. The weight of the tires will allow more load as you listen.

I would also check the fluid level while there.
Click to expand...

Checked the fluid level last night (and smashed the he'll out of my finger). This car has no dipstick for the fluid, just a fill hole that you fill until overflow. After taking the plug off no fluid ran out. Stuck my pinky in the hole and it was oily but certainly didn't feel like my pinky was submerged in oil. So I'm guessing it's low.
 
asechrest said:
Checked the fluid level last night (and smashed the he'll out of my finger). This car has no dipstick for the fluid, just a fill hole that you fill until overflow. After taking the plug off no fluid ran out. Stuck my pinky in the hole and it was oily but certainly didn't feel like my pinky was submerged in oil. So I'm guessing it's low.
Click to expand...

They are all like that.

Stick a pick-up (telescoping) magnet in there after having run the engine (it's not necessary to drive, but it does need to have the clutch up in neutral) and see what you grab. Lots of icky black stuff that's hard to wipe off the magnet = bad.

If it's really low, rather than just topping it off, drain and refill. The old fluid can tell you about condition.

Use the correct fluid. Some take gear oil, generally on the lighter end of the scale, some take ATF. None of them take limited slip additive (that's for some differentials, and it's counterproductive for a manual transmission).

To tell tire noise from wheel bearings (or BRAKES), rotate the tires and see if the noise moves. Also, inspect the tread for distortion or screws/nails/staples/etc. They often don't make the tire go flat if they remain in the tire. Distorted tread needs to be replaced NOW as it can easily result in a blowout and loss of control, especially on the front. Similarly, known bad wheel bearings need to replaced NOW because that's all that's holding your wheels on. If you wait for it to fail, your vehicle WILL be totaled.

I'm not at all convinced that these noises are not related. They might be separate, but might not.
 
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asechrest said:
I'll drain and refill, though some of you indicated above that I'm probably beyond that point.
Click to expand...

It won't fix the problem, but you can inspect the old fluid -- run a magnet through it. Maybe it can prevent further problems. The ultimate failure mode when a bearing "gives" is either the transmission spins with a loud crunch, or it locks up due to engaging two gears at once. It can do that at highway speed, which can be "interesting."

Good luck finding GL-4 these days….

You can use GL-5 IF it doesn't contain limited slip additive.
 
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I'll also throw in: if the transaxle's gone, don't junk the car until you price a used transaxle from a wreck. I had a 1985 Honda Civic wagon that needed several bearings replaced in the transaxle. The shop I used quoted ~$1000 to split the case and basically rebuild the 5 speed, IIRC. He (same shop) got me a used one for ~$250. He was replacing the clutch and so had the transaxle out anyway. Put another 100K miles on it before I traded it.

John
 
MAKG1 said:
It won't fix the problem, but you can inspect the old fluid -- run a magnet through it. Maybe it can prevent further problems. The ultimate failure mode when a bearing "gives" is either the transmission spins with a loud crunch, or it locks up due to engaging two gears at once. It can do that at highway speed, which can be "interesting."

Good luck finding GL-4 these days….

You can use GL-5 IF it doesn't contain limited slip additive.
Click to expand...
GL-4/5 sans LS additive can be found at any major auto supplier (Autozone, O'Reilly, et al).
 
jsstevens said:
I'll also throw in: if the transaxle's gone, don't junk the car until you price a used transaxle from a wreck.
Click to expand...

Not a mechanic, so I was holding off writing on this thread... but with the above, I'll jump in...

Manual Transmissions for the 2003 Corolla can be donated by the following vehicles:

2003-2008 COROLLA M.T., FWD; 5 speed
2003-2008 MATRIX M.T.; 5 speed
2003-2008 VIBE M.T.; (5 speed)


I agree that obtaining a recycled part for this make sense over demolishing the car or spending for a new or reman transmission. Demand is strong on these transmissions, driving prices to an average of $1200.00 Long term warranties of a year or more are available.


Spindle and bearings can be obtained as an assembly... You should be able to find them for $50 average.
 
AggieMike88 said:
Spindle and bearings can be obtained as an assembly... You should be able to find them for $50 average.
Click to expand...

Though if a bearing gave it up, it's pretty likely to need at least one gear pair as well. Plus labor to tear the box apart ($$$$). Some transmissions can be torn down easily by a shade tree mechanic. Some require weird-a$$ tools that you just can't get, like ultra deep sockets that can torque 200 ft-lbs on a 2 inch nut. I don't know which class this one falls into.

Virtually all of them go together like those obnoxious wooden puzzles we used to get out of the dollar store.

Unless you mean for the front wheels. Changing the spindle will require an alignment, but changing the part is pretty straightforward.
 
Yes... I was referring to the front suspension parts.

When someone calls me for a front hub/bearing for FWD cars, I usually defer to providing the spindle with hub still attached. Saves my time from hydraulically pulling the hub off and the customer from hydraulically pressing on.
 
If you want to do the wheel bearings right, buy a Hub Shark. Less than 20 min. a side. Put it on ebay if you don't want to keep it afterwards.
 
Alexb2000 said:
If you want to do the wheel bearings right, buy a Hub Shark. Less than 20 min. a side. Put it on ebay if you don't want to keep it afterwards.
Click to expand...

Interesting, but at $400 price plus 60 lb shipping, I really doubt it's going to be worth it for one vehicle.
 
Alexb2000 said:
If you want to do the wheel bearings right, buy a Hub Shark. Less than 20 min. a side. Put it on ebay if you don't want to keep it afterwards.
Click to expand...

That an interesting tool. Didn't even know that existed. Here's the guide I planned to follow for the wheel bearings: http://www.paulstravelpictures.com/Toyota-Corolla-Front-Wheel-Bearing-Replacement-Guide/

He took the streering knuckles to a machine shop to have the old bearing pressed out and the new pressed in. I had planned to do the same if possible.

Here's my current plan of action: I'll jack the car up tonight and have a listen to the wheel bearings or any up/down left/right play in the wheels. I'll also do the front-end vehicle-off tests previously advised in this thread. If the bearings are bad I may replace them, but I am tempted to take it to the local shop and have them determine whether the transmission is an/the issue. If it's not the transmission and is something I can fix (like the wheel bearings), I'll pay them for the time + extra for their troubles and fix it myself (is it kosher to do that to the shop?).

If it is the transmission or something similarly expensive, I need to give some serious thought to getting another vehicle rather than sinking the money into this one, which is high-mileage with a deteriorating exterior. I do love the car and it's unclear whether I'd keep it as a project car, sell it, etc. And I am secure in the fact that this car has been very kind to me, carrying me across the state with nary a single issue until recently since I bought it used at 40k miles.

I owe all of you a beer and will update the thread.
 
It's entirely kosher at a good shop to have them diagnose and have you repair. However, you may run into a crook who won't release the car "for safety reasons" unless it is repaired. Wheel bearings are targets for this.

If you have AAA, that may be a way out. Better yet, ask in advance.

If you don't have a press at home, you're not going to save much over just having a shop do it. The shop may even have one of these hub shark tools. There just isn't much to a spindle removal on a Toyota FWD. If I remember right, tie the caliper to the Mac strut, remove maybe one bolt on the rotor (usually missing) two bolts to the Mac strut, three on the bottom of the balljoint, plus the axle nut and tie rod end.
 
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asechrest said:
That an interesting tool. Didn't even know that existed. Here's the guide I planned to follow for the wheel bearings: http://www.paulstravelpictures.com/Toyota-Corolla-Front-Wheel-Bearing-Replacement-Guide/

He took the streering knuckles to a machine shop to have the old bearing pressed out and the new pressed in. I had planned to do the same if possible.

Here's my current plan of action: I'll jack the car up tonight and have a listen to the wheel bearings or any up/down left/right play in the wheels. I'll also do the front-end vehicle-off tests previously advised in this thread. If the bearings are bad I may replace them, but I am tempted to take it to the local shop and have them determine whether the transmission is an/the issue. If it's not the transmission and is something I can fix (like the wheel bearings), I'll pay them for the time + extra for their troubles and fix it myself (is it kosher to do that to the shop?).

If it is the transmission or something similarly expensive, I need to give some serious thought to getting another vehicle rather than sinking the money into this one, which is high-mileage with a deteriorating exterior. I do love the car and it's unclear whether I'd keep it as a project car, sell it, etc. And I am secure in the fact that this car has been very kind to me, carrying me across the state with nary a single issue until recently since I bought it used at 40k miles.

I owe all of you a beer and will update the thread.
Click to expand...

If you have a house to put it in. You could just go offer this guy $100 he's asking $150 for a 20 ton press. http://tampa.craigslist.org/hdo/tls/4506391372.html. I doubt a machine shop will do it for less than $50, might be a $100.

Order some good bearings from Rock Auto and probably save a $50-$100 vs. Autozone, etc.

This can be done cheaply and you can increase your knowledge if you want to. Investing in tools is probably a good idea if you plan to rebuild a totaled car anyway.

However, your last comment makes the most sense. Diagnose it yourself, it isn't that hard. If the transmission has a problem, what that problem is doesn't matter, at that mileage you need a full rebuild anyway. Between wheel bearings, transmission, plus other issues, it would be wise to consider a new car if that is the case. Shops LOVE someone with high mileage pouring money into their car only to have a high mileage car that needs a lot more. You can get a brand new Corolla for less than $200 a month.
 
asechrest said:
Ya'll are my virtual mechanics and I really appreciate the help you have all given me in the past. My last thread was about rebuilding a crashed car for my family. Looks like the decision is imminent, because here's the latest issue on my daily driver.

2003 Toyota Corolla, manual transmission, 227k miles (vaaaast majority highway). After exiting the highway from a trip across FL on Sunday night, I noticed a noise I haven't heard before. I can only describe it as a low growling when at speed and in gear. The moment I take it out of gear it ceases. I hear it around 50 mph, whether giving it some gas or letting off the pedal (but still in gear). The fact that pulling it out of gear stops it seems to preclude something like wheel bearings or tire noise. The fact that it ceases when out of gear also means I can't reproduce the noise in my driveway to try to diagnose.

Here's a YT video of the noise. About 23 seconds in it's most pronounced. You can hear it get a touch louder as I give it a little gas, then a touch softer as I left off the gas, then stop when I take it out of gear and coast.

My concern is that it's the transmission after reading that 2003 Corollas had manual transmission issues. Thanks in advance.


[EDIT] - To help you hear it, it's the sort of background growling/grinding noise (not the dull hum of the tires, or the rattle of the door you can hear briefly toward the end of the video).
Click to expand...

I don't have the bandwidth to watch the video, does it make the noise in any gear? Does it go away in 4th gear? If you let your foot off the clutch in neutral does it make the noise? This is the most important question, does the noise change with the changing of gears, or just with road speed?
 
Just turn the radio up, when you run out of volume to cover the noise it will be easy to figure out what the problem is.....;)
 
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