Money M10 cancelled, new design on the way

dell30rb

Final Approach
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Ren
Plastic Mooney?
Or make up the speed with folding gear?
 
A slightly larger, reverse tail, composite with retracts would be a very cool plane. Very curious to see where this goes... competing with Cirrus will be a difficult venture!
 
Well, that makes me happy. It really messed with my head since there already was a production Mooney M10. That numbering made me think that the new owners of Mooney didn't know much about the company's prior products.

Hopefully they don't call the new one the M18.
 
Excited to see what they come out with. Although I'm curious about performance since the Acclaim is already faster than the SR22. If they make it just as comfortable and modern as the SR22 with a parachute system and folding gear, I think they will have a winner.
 
Excited to see what they come out with. Although I'm curious about performance since the Acclaim is already faster than the SR22. If they make it just as comfortable and modern as the SR22 with a parachute system and folding gear, I think they will have a winner.

That's my guess. Somewhere between Acclaim and SR22 on speed. With a parachute and comparable interior room to Cirrus.
 
Even for a storied name such as Mooney this is going to be a monumental project fraught with risk. They may be literally betting the company on this outcome. Not sure they really have any choice.

My guess it'll be pressurized and set up for a turbine version, similar to how the Malibu evolved. There isn't a big enough piston market any more to pay for developing/certifying/producing something that is merely an "upgrade" to their current legacy design performance.

Let's hope they do one better than Piper in terms of large pilot comfort and access/egress to/from the front seats. :D
 
By the time Mooney thinks they can get a plane out there Cirrus will no doubt be light years ahead of where they are now. If you are gonna win in the market you need to make something new, not copy something someone else is expert at making.
 
Cirrus seems to have proven you can sell a bunch of 300,000-700,000K 4 seat airplanes, if it has a chute, fancy glass fly by itself gizmos and the interior of a lexus.
market it in high end magazines and non-aviation places and bada-bing...profits.
If one the previously established guys makes their version and goes after the same customer base....who knows who wins....probably in the end they both loose...
If there is only a market for ie. 100 planes like a year, and Cirrus has all of them, what happens when 20,30,50 go somewhere else? My guess is someone goes under. But thats a long way off...
 
By the time Mooney thinks they can get a plane out there Cirrus will no doubt be light years ahead of where they are now. If you are gonna win in the market you need to make something new, not copy something someone else is expert at making.

I am curious why you think this?

Cirrus is saddled with a near 20 year old certified airframe and would appear to be reaching the limits of performance from adding hp. It is trying to move its top end customers into a very light jet it has taken many years to develop. It's recent improvements have been in creature comforts, cosmetics including customized paint schemes and avionics advances - with little of the latter being proprietary.

I seriously doubt Mooney is going to "copy" Cirrus' piston aircraft, except in that it will have a propeller, wings, empennage, etc.

A really high performance, pressurized, cabin class (no crawling over the wing to get in) propeller airplane is something Cirrus is in no position to create at this time. They are committed to the jet now. Let the battle begin. :D
 
Cirrus sells 350 single-engine pistons a year (and that is constrained due to carving out part of the factory for the SF50). Cirrus is no more saddled than Mooney in designing and making aircraft. The pressurized 100LL-single-engine out there is the Evolution with the Lycoming. It is said to be in the $900k range using a builder. Equates to the SR22T yet is said to be faster. Betcha Evolution would love to sell 100 plus of them a year as Cirrus does with the SR22T.
 
Again, Cirrus sells 350 single-engine pistons a year (and that is constrained due to carving out part of the factory for the SF50). Bull Cirrus is no more saddled than Mooney in designing and making aircraft. The pressurized 100LL-single-engine out there is the Evolution with the Lycoming. It is said to be in the $900k range using a builder. Equates to the SR22T yet is said to be faster. Compare their numbers. Cirrus still wins.

You contradicted yourself above. If you have ever run a company you will understand why Cirrus is indeed constrained. Not just in its ability to produce a higher volume of piston airplanes today, but its ability to keep that line going, while it completes the SF50 program and ramps it to volume production. Nobody with a modicum of operating experience will believe it can also start a clean sheet design and certification project at the same time. You are dreaming.
 
Cirrus seems to have proven you can sell a bunch of 300,000-700,000K 4 seat airplanes, if it has a chute, fancy glass fly by itself gizmos and the interior of a lexus.
market it in high end magazines and non-aviation places and bada-bing...profits.
If one the previously established guys makes their version and goes after the same customer base....who knows who wins....probably in the end they both loose...
If there is only a market for ie. 100 planes like a year, and Cirrus has all of them, what happens when 20,30,50 go somewhere else? My guess is someone goes under. But thats a long way off...


The customer wins.
 
I think Cirrus will hit a home run with the jet.

We should all hope they do. Every market successful new design is good for GA.
 
Cirrus sells 350 single-engine pistons a year (and that is constrained due to carving out part of the factory for the SF50). Cirrus is no more saddled than Mooney in designing and making aircraft. The pressurized 100LL-single-engine out there is the Evolution with the Lycoming. It is said to be in the $900k range using a builder. Equates to the SR22T yet is said to be faster. Betcha Evolution would love to sell 100 plus of them a year as Cirrus does with the SR22T.

The pressurized 100LL single engine piston certified airplane out there is the Piper M350. The Evolution is an "owner built" airplane.
 
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The pressurized 100LL single engine piston certified airplane out there is the Piper M350. The Evolution is an "owner built" airplane.

The M350 is $1.15m far more expensive than the SR22T. The gas Evolution is about the same price as the SR22T finished plane (using a builder and the 51% rule). Neither are denting SR22T sales.
 
A twin engine Mooney is what the world needs, with center-line thrust and BRS.
 
When is the next bankruptcy?
Exactly.

Trivia question - in the past 10 years, how many different companies have owned Mooney?

Bonus points - how many different CEOs in the same time period?
 
.

A few things to consider when thinking about a new Mooney.

The aeronautic design thing is a mature entity. There aren't any Big Aeronautic Secrets left in the building of a single engine aircraft. So, I'll assume the airframe is built utilizing every aero advantage out there. But there are a few things that might noticeably improve efficiency. Particular attention should be given to excresence drag. I think manufacturers ignore it because they think there aren't any big gains to be had. But if one examines the drag from control surface gaps and particularly antennas, it adds up. I wonder if much attention has been directed toward antenna drag. Since they are designed by the avionics supplier, is anyone paying attention to what they do mounted on the airframe? We know gap seals reduce drag. Shouldn't an aircraft manufacturer include them in new designs?

One of the big things they can do to make it a hit is the design and execution of the cabin. The Cirrus G6 instrument panel is a good example of what is possible. It looks pretty cool, and it's laid out to be functional as well. Mooney should hire a design firm to explore the possibilities. For over half a century the cabin design of small aircraft has been static. Wake it up.

Regarding performance possibilities, I think composite construction should make building a pressurized aircraft much simpler. The manufacturer should be able to build a cabin that has very few paths for air to escape, which means it will require less energy to produce a pressurized environment. Every pressurized piston engined aircraft in production uses a turbocharger to provide cabin pressure. We know that turbocharging places a performance penalty on engines, and they can also affect engine longevity. If an aircraft cabin is built to absolutely minimize leakage, would it be possible to use an electrically driven fan to provide pressurization? A fuselage with leakage equivalent to a two square inch opening should be possible. The fan wouldn't need to produce a lot of volume, just a high static pressure differential. A 1/2 HP fan might do it, in a 28 VDC system that would draw 40 amps. Counting system losses, an alternator producing that amperage would require about 1.7 HP.

But then again it's probably a bad idea for several reasons. :D
 
.

A few things to consider when thinking about a new Mooney.

The aeronautic design thing is a mature entity. There aren't any Big Aeronautic Secrets left in the building of a single engine aircraft. So, I'll assume the airframe is built utilizing every aero advantage out there. But there are a few things that might noticeably improve efficiency. Particular attention should be given to excresence drag. I think manufacturers ignore it because they think there aren't any big gains to be had. But if one examines the drag from control surface gaps and particularly antennas, it adds up. I wonder if much attention has been directed toward antenna drag. Since they are designed by the avionics supplier, is anyone paying attention to what they do mounted on the airframe? We know gap seals reduce drag. Shouldn't an aircraft manufacturer include them in new designs?

As with any commercial product it is a trade-off between increased performance, increased cost/complexity to design/build/maintain, customer acceptance, certification time & costs, and so forth. Cirrus lost one of its test platform airplanes and the pilot in 1999 due to a jammed aileron. Gap seals and such are more efficient, but the manufacturer has to decide just how much certification testing it can actually financially bear. Nobody is ever going to produce the "perfect" certified airplane.

One of the big things they can do to make it a hit is the design and execution of the cabin. The Cirrus G6 instrument panel is a good example of what is possible. It looks pretty cool, and it's laid out to be functional as well. Mooney should hire a design firm to explore the possibilities. For over half a century the cabin design of small aircraft has been static. Wake it up.

Regarding performance possibilities, I think composite construction should make building a pressurized aircraft much simpler. The manufacturer should be able to build a cabin that has very few paths for air to escape, which means it will require less energy to produce a pressurized environment. Every pressurized piston engined aircraft in production uses a turbocharger to provide cabin pressure. We know that turbocharging places a performance penalty on engines, and they can also affect engine longevity. If an aircraft cabin is built to absolutely minimize leakage, would it be possible to use an electrically driven fan to provide pressurization? A fuselage with leakage equivalent to a two square inch opening should be possible. The fan wouldn't need to produce a lot of volume, just a high static pressure differential. A 1/2 HP fan might do it, in a 28 VDC system that would draw 40 amps. Counting system losses, an alternator producing that amperage would require about 1.7 HP.

But then again it's probably a bad idea for several reasons. :D

Composites should make a pressurised plane easier to design and manufacture. However, the only reason to have a pressurised plane is to go high, and the only way to go high in a piston airplane is to turbocharge it. So I think we can expect the turbo to continue to be the source for the pressurisation systems.

I think the lack of pressurisation is the most serious vulnerability of the Cirrus SR22T, and I would be astonished if that does not try to get exploited by the competition.
 
The M350 is $1.15m far more expensive than the SR22T...

Yes, it (and its turbine version, the M600) are the logical step up for an SR22T driver who is tired of wearing an O2 mask and a clamp-on noise-cancelling headset.
Cirrus is betting most of those buyers will prefer a jet with a chute.

Going to be interesting to see how this all shakes out. Will the jet cannibalise SR22T sales? Or will it impact Piper's Malibu and perhaps even TBM 900/930 turboprop sales more? Will Cirrus find the single engine jet's limitations frustrate owners with resulting rapid turnover to a twinjet like the Citation Mustang, Eclipse, Embraer 100 or even the expensive Honda? :cool:
 
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It'll be fixed gear and have a chute.
 
Composites should make a pressurised plane easier to design and manufacture. However, the only reason to have a pressurised plane is to go high, and the only way to go high in a piston airplane is to turbocharge it. So I think we can expect the turbo to continue to be the source for the pressurisation systems.

I think the lack of pressurisation is the most serious vulnerability of the Cirrus SR22T, and I would be astonished if that does not try to get exploited by the competition.

My thinking is that using an electric motor will remove some of the burden the engine carries. But it's just a flyby idea. I have lots of them. :D

Cirrus is already knocking on the door of $1M. If they pressurized the SR-22, it would go over the Big One. There's gotta be a way to get airframe prices down. Maybe the Chinese can figure it out.
 
They should just buy the rights to the Windecker Eagle, tweak it, build it, sell it.
 
My thinking is that using an electric motor will remove some of the burden the engine carries. But it's just a flyby idea.
Boeing was already exploring this space with the 787. I think it has electric pressurization and electric de-icing.
 
Nah, it will be called the M16 and I hear it goes like a shot!
Actually the new management decided to reset the counter and the new design will be the M1. Since it's targeted for the training and first owner market it will be built like a tank.
 
hope they do something about that ghastly front seating posture. Especially with modern refinements in fairing and antenna placement, you could give up a bit of speed for enough headroom to raise the ass-to-heel height to more family friendly levels, especially if you wish to poach Cirri customers. I did similar math when I opted an Arrow over a 20F, I know if I had that kind of stupid money I would behave similarly. Of course, you throw a Lycoming 540 into the mix and I might just tell the wife to suck it up. LOL
 
I think the lack of pressurisation is the most serious vulnerability of the Cirrus SR22T, and I would be astonished if that does not try to get exploited by the competition.

The SRxx model line were never designed to be pressurized. Cirrus made the decision to make a clean sheet jet to get their customers pressurization and above 250ktas performance - the SF50.

The Mooney CEO makes no secret he wants in on Cirrus's market but Mooney's small changes to their antiquated Acclaim and Ovation are cosmetic and will not achieve that goal.

As was noted above there is already a pressurized turbo piston single on the market that offers an optional BRS chute - the Evolution with the Lycoming engine. This plane is at the same price point as the SR22T and has better performance numbers. Yet the sales are tiny compared to the SR22T.

Which brings the conversation back to what will Mooney try to do (like so many others) to get into the game? They will need to come up with a lot more than a clean sheet copy of the SR22T.

Since Cirrus is already making a pressurized jet they have the experience and capability to design and make a plane to fill the niche in between the SR22T and their jet but for now no one is out there with a viable threat to their sales dominance. Not even the Cessna TTx which is exactly the same plane at the SR22T except it lacks the BRS chute.
 
I'm thinking it'll be more like the Lancair EVO Piston

http://www.flyingmag.com/we-fly-lancair-evolution-piston

Would love to see a certified application of the iE2 powerplant. If you flip the tail on the Evo it already looks a bit like a Mooney...

That piston EVO is pretty incredible tho, the range, speed, and load on that thing is unmatched compared to any single engine piston that I can think of.
 
Every time I see this thread I thought that Mooney was thinking about making the MooneyMite again.
 
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