MOGAS and the free overhaul

Discussion in 'Flight Following' started by Chesterspal, May 14, 2019.

  1. Chesterspal

    Chesterspal Pre-Flight

    Joined:
    Apr 26, 2019
    Messages:
    83
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Chesterspal
    Read an interesting article this morning about how using MOGAS in your plane, assuming it will run on it, can save you enough $$ to pay for your next overhaul. It's also better for the engine in that it has no lead to foul up the plugs. Also, better for the environment, again, because no lead is being burned.

    I checked on line and it appears there are enough MOGAS airports to let you travel from one coast to the other. The closest to me is about 60 NM but in the general direction I'm likely to be flying around anyway. There are others around my area, as well.

    Just as an aside, I make my own ethanol-free MOGAS myself for my motorcycles to keep their carbs from fouling up and the hoses and gaskets from rotting.

    Suppose I can gear up the process enough to make some for my plane :D
     
  2. FormerHangie

    FormerHangie Pattern Altitude

    Joined:
    Oct 28, 2013
    Messages:
    2,476
    Location:
    Roswell, GA
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    FormerHangie
    Where I am 87 octane E0 is becoming pretty common. Not all that high of a percentage of stations carry it but enough do to where if you look for it you'll find it.

    If you need 90 octane E0 you'll have to go to a marina.
     
  3. 455 Bravo Uniform

    455 Bravo Uniform Pattern Altitude PoA Supporter

    Joined:
    Aug 18, 2015
    Messages:
    2,375
    Location:
    KLAF
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    455 Bravo Uniform
    How do you make your own? Water wash it?
     
  4. Chesterspal

    Chesterspal Pre-Flight

    Joined:
    Apr 26, 2019
    Messages:
    83
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Chesterspal
    You add distilled water, agitate like crazy, wait overnight, drain off the water and E10. You lose around 3 points of octane by removing the ethanol so you start with 91 premium to get down to around 88. If 80 is what these older planes will run on you can probably use regular gas and still be above that.

    Once the ethanol is removed the gas will last forever. I have some I made years ago that's still perfect. Has this sweet smell to it, too.

    Where I live there is no non-E10 gas sold. Maybe at the marina but some frown on selling gas not for your boat.
     
  5. cgrab

    cgrab Pattern Altitude

    Joined:
    May 2, 2014
    Messages:
    1,642
    Location:
    Huntsville AL
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    cgrab
    I used MOGAS for a while but my mechanic said it caused a leak in my tanks. We managed to seal it up but with the cost so close between MOGAS and the cheapest AVGAS around, I would rather fly out and get some AVGAS then hassle with hauling 5-gal cans, testing the gas, and using the siphon to fill the high wing tanks. Actually, that's what I'm going to do this morning-fly out to fill the tanks for a trip later this week.
     
    Doug Reid likes this.
  6. Flocker

    Flocker Pre-takeoff checklist

    Joined:
    May 24, 2013
    Messages:
    221
    Location:
    Atlanta GA
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Flocker
    Nectar of the Gods.
     
  7. Kenny Phillips

    Kenny Phillips Pattern Altitude

    Joined:
    Jul 29, 2018
    Messages:
    1,861
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Kenny Phillips
    And you can distill the water/ethanol mix ... and drink it!
     
    3393RP and Zeldman like this.
  8. Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe

    Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

    Joined:
    Jun 7, 2008
    Messages:
    11,015
    Location:
    DXO124009
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Light and Sporty Guy
    There are different ways of calculating octane - auto fuel is an average of two methods, aircraft fuel is rated differently 80 octane is actually 80/87 (100 LL is 100/130).
    I think it's clear that you haven't tested the octane number of your un-ethanolled fuel.

    Then you have the problem that in the stupidly over-regulated world of type certificated aircraft, home brew fuel just isn't going to cut it - whether it works or not.
     
  9. dmspilot

    dmspilot En-Route

    Joined:
    Oct 20, 2006
    Messages:
    3,314
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    dmspilot
    80 avgas is not equivalent to 80 octane mogas, the octane is calculated differently.
     
    Zeldman likes this.
  10. Kenny Phillips

    Kenny Phillips Pattern Altitude

    Joined:
    Jul 29, 2018
    Messages:
    1,861
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Kenny Phillips
    Road fuel octane is calculated by averaging the results of two tests: Research Octane Method (RON) and Motor Octane Number (MON), the first one being biased toward high load, the other toward high speed operation. Motor octane tests are also more complex in terms of testing. I believe that AvGas is tested more or less like the MON test, and the number is the straight result of the test.
     
  11. Chesterspal

    Chesterspal Pre-Flight

    Joined:
    Apr 26, 2019
    Messages:
    83
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Chesterspal
    The notion of my making 30 gallons of MOGAS was just a joke.

    My point has to do with the fact that, if my plane will run find on 80 MOGAS and I can get it cheaper than AVGAS, is there any reason not to use it and save the $$ for my overhaul.

    So far, I have not heard any save for one guy who claims it ate his fuel tank.
     
  12. EdFred

    EdFred Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

    Joined:
    Feb 25, 2005
    Messages:
    22,222
    Location:
    Michigan
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Ed Frederick
    If the plane sits for any length of time (which can happen for a variety of reasons) the car gas is not as stable as avgas.
     
  13. Grum.Man

    Grum.Man Pattern Altitude

    Joined:
    Jul 17, 2014
    Messages:
    2,295
    Location:
    Statesville NC
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Grum.Man
    I doubt that clean non eth fuel would eat a fuel tank. The only real benefit I see is the smell and fact that it evaporates without leaving an odor. Given the chance I would run it every time as money is money. In fact, it's one of the requirements I look for in my next airplane.
     
  14. Bell206

    Bell206 Cleared for Takeoff

    Joined:
    Oct 6, 2017
    Messages:
    1,379
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Bell206
    Just as a note, assuming you are talking about a certified aircraft be sure to add the cost of the STC to use mogas if your aircraft doesn't already have one.
     
  15. ateamer

    ateamer Line Up and Wait

    Joined:
    Dec 19, 2007
    Messages:
    586
    Location:
    Port St. Lucie, FL
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    ateamer
    Rotax 912 engines can run E10, as long as the fuel system is compatible with ethanol.
     
  16. SoonerAviator

    SoonerAviator En-Route PoA Supporter

    Joined:
    Jul 21, 2014
    Messages:
    4,160
    Location:
    Broken Arrow, OK
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    SoonerAviator
    I'd love to see how he substantiated that one unless you were running something ethanol-laced.
     
  17. dennisc172

    dennisc172 Pre-Flight

    Joined:
    Mar 22, 2018
    Messages:
    62
    Location:
    Amsterdam, NL
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Dennis
    We used to fly here a lot (Netherlands) on MOGAS but the airport removed it as it got replaced by UL91 (+-$4 more per gallon). There is a STC for MOGAS operation on the Cessna 172 and Piper Warriors (non inject engines) I flew, replacing the pump(s) and some hoses. I never had any problems with the operations except it was sometimes hard to find the clean MOGAS fuel without ethanol. I remember the known 'issues' were carb icing and pre-ignition/detonation.
     
  18. Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe

    Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

    Joined:
    Jun 7, 2008
    Messages:
    11,015
    Location:
    DXO124009
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Light and Sporty Guy
    No. Other than the fact that you need the STC (Supplemental Type Certificate) to be legit. https://www.eaa.org/eaa/pilots/EAA-STC-Program/auto-fuel-stc
     
  19. Lachlan

    Lachlan En-Route

    Joined:
    Sep 23, 2015
    Messages:
    2,766
    Location:
    North Creek, NY
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Lachlan
    <— burns up buckets of 91 octane ethanol free mogas as often as possible. Two gas stations in town, and one sells ethanol free gas and pretty good ice cream. The other one has decent pizza. So far, though, neither place has promised to pay for an overhaul...
     
  20. Stingray Don

    Stingray Don En-Route

    Joined:
    Dec 21, 2014
    Messages:
    2,562
    Location:
    Indianapolis, Indiana
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Stingray Don
    I fly to a nearby airport that has mogas. It would be nice if my home airport had it.
     
  21. bnt83

    bnt83 Final Approach PoA Supporter

    Joined:
    Dec 31, 2012
    Messages:
    8,345
    Location:
    Lincoln NE
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Brian
    My tanks are the same design as yours, my airplane is even older by serial number IIRC, had mogas in them for almost 5 years straight now with many years on/off mogas, no leaks.

    On the flip side a friend's 1977 177B that has never had mogas in it ever just started leaking last year at the OB tank rib and the aft tank spar at the bottom wing skin.
     
  22. bnt83

    bnt83 Final Approach PoA Supporter

    Joined:
    Dec 31, 2012
    Messages:
    8,345
    Location:
    Lincoln NE
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Brian
    It makes it easier to do if you have big tank, like 300 gallons and can buy bulk when the price is low. Dad got 300 for $2.20 a gallon this year IIRC. I don't have that so I just pay the pump prices at the gas station, and check every load for ethanol.
     
  23. Duster

    Duster Pre-Flight

    Joined:
    Jul 10, 2017
    Messages:
    61
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Duster
    I am aware of certain renegades that have run almost exclusively e10 mogas through their early model C-180 bladders, since they started adding that poison to our mogas, and E0 before that. Best not to leave it setting for more than a couple months for many reasons, but their original bladders didn't have any issues with the ethanol.

    The Eagle fuel cells, which have replaced both bladders in my plane, are approved for ethanol fuel. Alas, I have high compression and can't run it in the wagon, no stc. The cub I fly has high compression, but Peterson does have an stc for the 0-320b2b, though only for 91E0. Hard to find, but the engine runs perfect on it when available.

    On my original 0-470-L, which had the stc, ran plenty of 87E0 through it and had no issues other than paying half price for fuel.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
  24. Mtns2Skies

    Mtns2Skies Super Moderator Management Council Member PoA Supporter

    Joined:
    Jul 12, 2008
    Messages:
    3,408
    Location:
    Wisconsin
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Mtns2Skies
    Plenty of airports around here have on-airport Mogas for sale. I use that regularly and have had no issues. Perhaps misplaced faith, but I feel that on-airport mogas will be higher quality than otherwise.
     
  25. FormerHangie

    FormerHangie Pattern Altitude

    Joined:
    Oct 28, 2013
    Messages:
    2,476
    Location:
    Roswell, GA
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    FormerHangie
    I've been driving for 45 years and have never had a problem with mogas. I wouldn't run in in a TSIO-520, but it should be fine in a low compression aero engine.
     
  26. nrpetersen

    nrpetersen Pre-takeoff checklist

    Joined:
    Jan 4, 2013
    Messages:
    417
    Location:
    Minnetonka MN
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    nrpetersen
    If you use MoGas check each load for presence of alcohol. My hangar mate had his C-140 fuel line swelled near-shut from airport fuel. When checked, it was about 5% alcohol. When the FBO was confronted with this, he said the fuel was certified by the supplier as E0. What's more, the credit card people wouldn't release the mailing addresses of previous users so the FBO had no way to warn about 6 weeks of users about the presence of alcohol. This was about 10 years ago however. I've never found alcohol in boat fuel however.
     
  27. Huckster79

    Huckster79 Line Up and Wait

    Joined:
    Nov 22, 2018
    Messages:
    629
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Huckster79
    I like a bit of both, don’t use scientific ratio but when I can top off with Mogas I figure puts it closer to the gas she was built for- leaded but not 4x what she was meant for.

    Could be in my head but I swear she runs smoother when there’s some mogas in the tank.
     
  28. chemgeek

    chemgeek Line Up and Wait

    Joined:
    Dec 5, 2009
    Messages:
    708
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    chemgeek
    On-airport, conforming mogas can be hard to find. Airports can be reluctant to sell it because of low volume and profitability, plus potential liability issues. If you can get the appropriate STC, using mogas eliminates lead buildup in the engine. I burned it for years in my Grumman when it was readily available, including on-airport. Bear in mind that on-airport mogas will be more expensive than what you pay at the gas station. The savings will be substantial, but not as high as you might expect. When you travel, it may not be available at your stops or destination.

    If your aircraft is eligible for a high compression STC which confers "free" extra power, you will have to give up mogas if you install it. Since it is so hard to find conforming mogas in the area--and I do not care to schlep it--I gave up and installed a HC STC at last overhaul.

    BTW, an overhaul will cost north of $20k, so to get a "free" overhaul you would have to save $10 an hour in fuel costs over the full 2000 hour life of the engine. If you have a mid time engine, you have to recover more than that. So "free" overhaul seerms a bit rosy. Cost savings, yes.
     
  29. Ryanb

    Ryanb Final Approach PoA Supporter

    Joined:
    Jul 21, 2010
    Messages:
    9,073
    Location:
    Tennessee
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Ryan
    That’s debatable. Ethanol is also known to foul injectors, so make sure it’s ethanol-free.
     
  30. Nub_Pilot

    Nub_Pilot Pre-Flight

    Joined:
    Jan 21, 2019
    Messages:
    43
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Jeremy's new interest
    The people using MOGAS with E10, have you ever considered adding Star Tron (http://www.starbrite.com/startron) to it to prevent the fuel from going bad so quickly due to the ethanol? I have been using it in my gas cans filled with premium MOGAS that I use in all my motorcycles.

    Although I'm intrigued by making my own E0 like the OP presented. I'll have to start looking that up now.
     
  31. Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe

    Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

    Joined:
    Jun 7, 2008
    Messages:
    11,015
    Location:
    DXO124009
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Light and Sporty Guy
    No. And, if I have had a problem related to the ethanol, I am not aware of it.

    I'll save you the trouble: Bad idea.
    You don't know what you end up with, and disposing of the contaminated ethanol plus other stuff that belongs in the fuel would be purd near impossible to do responsibly.
     
    UngaWunga and FormerHangie like this.
  32. Chesterspal

    Chesterspal Pre-Flight

    Joined:
    Apr 26, 2019
    Messages:
    83
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Chesterspal
    You end up with pure gasoline with no ethanol in it... none. It works and lots of MC folks are doing it where they cannot get gas without ethanol in it.

    If you leave the watered ethanol in an open can it will evaporate in a week or so. You do not have to pour it on the ground or down the sink. In fact, you could drink it if you were of that type of mind.
     
  33. Rgbeard

    Rgbeard Pre-takeoff checklist

    Joined:
    Aug 26, 2017
    Messages:
    437
    Location:
    Phoenix, AZ and Ensenada, Mexico
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    rgbeard

    You first! :)
     
  34. Cap'n Jack

    Cap'n Jack Final Approach

    Joined:
    Jun 25, 2006
    Messages:
    6,243
    Location:
    Nebraska
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Cap'n Jack
    Toluene, also used to increase octane, has a surprisingly high solubility in ethanol/water, and tastes so delicious.
    :rolleyes:
     
  35. Cap'n Jack

    Cap'n Jack Final Approach

    Joined:
    Jun 25, 2006
    Messages:
    6,243
    Location:
    Nebraska
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Cap'n Jack
    Most (all?) modern cars have fuel injectors and run fine on fuel with ethanol. Why don't they have problems?
     
  36. Kiddo's Driver

    Kiddo's Driver Cleared for Takeoff

    Joined:
    Oct 5, 2013
    Messages:
    1,406
    Location:
    Fayetteville, TN
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Jim
    Ummmmm...It is denatured with METHANOL. The Methanol comes out with the Ethanol.
    If you drink that you are going to have a bad time...

    I know you were joking, but dang!

    You CAN use it to make windshield washer fluid...
     
  37. Jamie Kirk

    Jamie Kirk Pre-takeoff checklist

    Joined:
    Aug 7, 2018
    Messages:
    294
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    JamieK
    I can buy 100LL for $4.35 a gallon. MOGAS is $4.11.

    For $.24 I’m not going to haul containers of gas and eliminate the ethanol.
     
  38. FormerHangie

    FormerHangie Pattern Altitude

    Joined:
    Oct 28, 2013
    Messages:
    2,476
    Location:
    Roswell, GA
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    FormerHangie
    I've never had a problem with E10 going bad, or suffering from phase separation, even in a marine environment. There are some fuel systems that don't do well with ethanol, such as in older boats and most airplanes, but I've never had an issue with the fuel itself.

    Don't get me wrong, I don't favor using corn based ethanol as a motor fuel, and now that E0 is becoming more available I use it when I can, but I have had no issues with E10.
     
  39. Ryanb

    Ryanb Final Approach PoA Supporter

    Joined:
    Jul 21, 2010
    Messages:
    9,073
    Location:
    Tennessee
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Ryan
    They do.

    Ethanol causes problems to the injectors due to its clean burning characteristics. Although ethanol burns cleaner than gasoline and has a cleansing effect on the fuel system, the cleansing process caused by ethanol loosens varnish and deposits in the fuel system that clog the fuel injector. It doesn’t happen overnight, but it does have an effect.

    Dad was a mechanic for over 15 years. He witnessed the effects first hand. There’s a reason why many gas stations began offering ‘ethanol-free’ fuel for a premium.
     
  40. SoonerAviator

    SoonerAviator En-Route PoA Supporter

    Joined:
    Jul 21, 2014
    Messages:
    4,160
    Location:
    Broken Arrow, OK
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    SoonerAviator
    Your problem is probably due to your location. E0 around here in Tulsa is priced about the same as Premium 91/93 octane E10, which is currently $2.70/gal. I've found that they typically have about a $0.30-0.35 premium for E0 over E10 of the same octane. Which, when I do the math for my F-150, is basically right around break-even for using either fuel when it come to cost per mile since I get a decent bump in MPG with E0.