Missing plane

[flyifrvfr]

Is there a video available which shows the plane crashing into the mountain. I need to see it just so I know it really happened. Seeing the video of the plane hitting the mountain would make it real for me.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

I've been ridiculed and scoffed at more than once on the red board about filing a flight plan. I've also survived a near-fatal night crash that left me in the hospital for almost three months. Flight plan went a long ways into helping me out of that pickle.

JD,

Excellent post. Thanks.

Can you share more about your crash? And did you really rip the wing off a 172?

 

[AdamZ]

I've been ridiculed and scoffed at more than once on the red board about filing a flight plan. I've also survived a near-fatal night crash that left me in the hospital for almost three months. Flight plan went a long ways into helping me out of that pickle.

For every reason you can give me for not filing a flight plan, I can give you one better--and that is: It can never hurt, but it sure as hell can help.

Regards.

-JD

JD I agree! A few questions if I may?

1) How long from your crash till your overdue time?

2) How long from the over due time till they found you?

3) Did your ELT help or did they just calculate time and distance and find you along the route. We were told at a recent FAA seminar that ELTs basically stink and only do any good about 20% of the time.

 

[EdFred]

Why does flightaware show N5398J as a C172 ?

 

[SCCutler]

The NTSB report has the wrong tail number. The Deb was N5893J.

Yep-

the last recorded flight of 93J (may she fly on in airplane heaven) was AUS-ADS, with yours truly and Tommy on board. Centex2 departure, Cedar Creek, Dumpy2 arrival. She flew very well, straight and true hands-off.

Gonna miss her.

 

[jwkidd]

Yep-

the last recorded flight of 93J (may she fly on in airplane heaven) was AUS-ADS, with yours truly and Tommy on board. Centex2 departure, Cedar Creek, Dumpy2 arrival. She flew very well, straight and true hands-off.

Gonna miss her.

Indeed... I flew her the Friday before... Straight, True and very Fast....

 

[CowboyPilot]

JD I agree! A few questions if I may?

1) How long from your crash till your overdue time?

I was on a night flight, XC from Texas to the far northeast. It was right around 1300 hours when the engine made a loud bang, a couple of more bangs, and then everything went quiet and the prop stopped. NTSB found out that the crankshaft had given way. NTSB also found out that the FBO's chief mechanic had been pencil whipping the maintenance logs.

I had less than a thousand hours in the log book, so I was still a fairly new pilot. The drill was "aviate, navigate, communicate." This was well before GPS, so I was using pilotage and ded reckoning. Established best glide speed, started shutting down all electronics except for one com and the xponder, which went to 7700 and I hit IDENT. Turned on my flashlight, checked my kneepad notes against my sectional to get a rough idea where I was, which wasn't good. Mountainous terrain, heavily forested. If there were clearings, I couldn't see them.

Tuned 121.5 and did the mayday thing. Got a controller from the nearest (now bravo) airport. Explained my situation and explained I had filed a detailed flight plan with AFSS Fort Worth. He told me he had another controller calling them on the landline for details and asked me what my situation was. I asked him where the nearest airport was. He said nearest airport was over 25 nm away. I was only at 8500 msl and between 2000 and 4000 agl with the geography I was immediately over.

Told him I was going to drop the gear, drop the flaps and stall it into the trees. He reminded me of my final emergency checklist (open door, shut off fuel, turn off master), and I acknowledged.

He told me he'd lose me off the radar when I got below terrain, but he had a good fix on where I should be and was dispatching emergency personnel. I asked him to say a quick prayer for me as I was shutting everything down and going in. Last words I heard from him were, "Good luck."

I dropped the flaps, lowered the gear, opened the door (only one to open), turned off the fuel, hit the landing lights to see about where the "tree horizon" was, flew right down to the treeline then pulled back into a severe stall. At the point of the actual stall, I killed the master.

Hit the trees and all hell broke loose. Airplane fell from the tops of the trees down to the forest floor--some fifty-plus feet.

About all I remember after that is coming around and seeing fire on the starboard side and having to drag myself through it in order to get out of the airplane.

2) How long from the over due time till they found you?

I found out a few weeks later in the hospital that the rescue folks made it to the crash scene in a little over one hour from the time the ATC notified them. Between the detailed flight plan I filed and his radar spotting, they didn't have to look for long.

3) Did your ELT help or did they just calculate time and distance and find you along the route. We were told at a recent FAA seminar that ELTs basically stink and only do any good about 20% of the time.

Both NTSB and the FAA investigators told me later that the flight plan let the rescuers know the general area I was in, the ATC's call narrowed that general area down to less than ten square miles and that the ELT was the beacon that brought the rescue chopper right to the crash site.

I still stay in touch with some of the new generation PJs and Coast Guard rescue folks who work a lot of civilian aircraft incidents. They say the same thing: Flight plan lets them know a good approximate area to look and the ELT will take them right to the scene. The reason it works, they say, is because when you DON'T show up, they up and looking for you during the "lifespan" of your ELT battery/power pack.

This is why a flight plan, especially in remote or rural area is so important: It gives the SAR guys a place to start. Otherwise, you're looking for a needle (a lone ELT signal) in one helluva big haystack (such as West Texas, Montana, the Dakotas, northern Idaho, Alaska, northern Maine, etc).

I call it my "Holy Trifecta" and it consists of a filing a flight plan for all XC trips, getting flight following when available, and always always always checking my ELT before I launch.

Regards.

-JD

 

[Bill]

NTSB also found out that the FBO's chief mechanic had been pencil whipping the maintenance logs.

Glad you made it out of that ordeal. I'm sure this was a big input to buy your own plane...

 

[TangoWhiskey]

The NTSB posted the final report today:

http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief2.asp?ev_id=20060925X01389&ntsbno=DEN06FA132&akey=1

 

[SCCutler]

God keep their souls.

The description of the final minutes, as told by radar, are not comforting,specially the altitudes and speeds.

Niner Three Juliet was not oxygen-equipped. I do not know whether the pilot had a portable O2 rig.

 

[KennyFlys]

I'm sorry for the loss.

It's a sad loss that shouldn't have happen given reported conditions, particularly under VFR. They don't indicate contributing causes but it looks like he wasn't at all equipped for such conditions. I would think if oxygen was lacking they would indicate that. But, if portable O2 were on board it might have been thrown beyond a searchable distance given the damage described.

 

[SkyHog]

Wow that sucks. I still don't understand why they were going to TEX from that direction. There's really no good way in unless you approach from the west.

 

[Teller1900]

Wow, that's incredibly sad.

 

[Joe B]

I guess the point of posting this was to point out what folks put family, friends, the plane owner and others through by not having a flight plan on file or checking in with someone who will know the route and if a problem arises. We all had to just start trying to find out what happened, where they were, who was on board and for a big part of the time weren't even sure anything was even wrong. Had someone survived, rescue would have been delayed.

Just think about it. I understand not filing on a nice day staying local. On a trip, especially if weather is marginable and terrain inhospitable, please either file or have someone check on you that knows the basics. At this point, we still are not certain who the folks on board are/were. I'm sure they all have family and friends that would like to know.

I went back through the thread - Dave made the above post almost a year ago. It is chillingly relevant today as well. I know I will be contemplating the topic in the next few days. Dave, I am so sorry for the loss of your friends.

Regards,
Joe

 

[smoore]

Absolutely chilling. I can attest to the rugged nature of the terrain in that area, as I've spent some time on the ground around Telluride.

No endorsements were found in either logbook.

This quote references the two logbooks provided by the pilot's family. What does this statement tell us? Is it just something they add for completeness or is that a telling clue?

 

[ScottM]

This quote references the two logbooks provided by the pilot's family. What does this statement tell us? Is it just something they add for completeness or is that a telling clue?

Not a lot especially when this incident occured on Sept 2006 and the two logbooks they got were more than a 1.5 years prior to the accident. A lot can happen in 18 months. Consider he had 300 hours in the months prior to the accident.

A logbook showing the pilot's most recent flying time was not located. According to Federal Aviation Administration aeromedical records, at his last examination, the pilot reported having 1,500 total flying hours and 300 hours in the 6 months prior to the examination.

Two pilot logbooks were provided by the pilot's family. The logbooks covered a time period from July 2, 2003 through March 30, 2005.

 

[ScottM]

I read that the wreck is still at the type of the mountain. What happens with insurance in this case or cases like this? Has the owner been paid and what type of settlement did he get. Did the estates of the pilot or any of the pax's file a claim against the aircraft owner or the club?

 

[jesse]

This quote references the two logbooks provided by the pilot's family. What does this statement tell us? Is it just something they add for completeness or is that a telling clue?

The airplane would have required a complex and high performance endorsement. These endorsements were not present in those logbooks. Keep in mind that those logbooks were OLD--I would bet the pilot got the endorsements from the club CFI that checked him out in the airplane.

It's not really that relevant to this accident.

 

[SCCutler]

I read that the wreck is still at the type of the mountain. What happens with insurance in this case or cases like this? Has the owner been paid and what type of settlement did he get. Did the estates of the pilot or any of the pax's file a claim against the aircraft owner or the club?

No suits as yet filed, to my knowledge. Insurance paid in accordance with the policy, but I cannot tell you how much that means (nor, in the circumstances, would I try to). The aircraft was replaced by another one, an F33, owned by the same owner.

The airplane would have required a complex and high performance endorsement. These endorsements were not present in those logbooks. Keep in mind that those logbooks were OLD--I would bet the pilot got the endorsements from the club CFI that checked him out in the airplane.

It's not really that relevant to this accident.

The pilot had met all of the club checkout requirements, and no member is allowed to rent without having done so. He was multi / comm / IA as well.

 

[Dave Siciliano]

Since settlements are still pending, can't say much. Tragic. There was a club checkout and the pilot had actually flown to this destination before with a club CFI.

The real heart breaker here was telling the families. A club instructor became concerned because he hadn't heard from the pilot and began the SAR. As facts came in, folks here had to piece together who was on the plane as there was no record. By tracking ownership of a car at the airport and talking to family members, the pieces were put together. Not much fun, especially for those that were contacted out of concern that didn't have someone on there as those concerned fished around.

That's why I suggested everyone tell someone who can relate to those concerned who's on the plane or at least, how many are aboard.

Best,

Dave

 

[ScottM]

Since settlements are still pending, can't say much. Tragic. There was a club checkout and the pilot had actually flown to this destination before with a club CFI.

The real heart breaker here was telling the families. A club instructor became concerned because he hadn't heard from the pilot and began the SAR. As facts came in, folks here had to piece together who was on the plane as there was no record. By tracking ownership of a car at the airport and talking to family members, the pieces were put together. Not much fun, especially for those that were contacted out of concern that didn't have someone on there as those concerned fished around.

That's why I suggested everyone tell someone who can relate to those concerned who's on the plane or at least, how many are aboard.

Best,

Dave

The whole thing really stinks and in the end all will have lost. Even if we do not file flight plans it is always a good idea just to let someone know where you are going and when you plan to get back. As annoying as it was when my mother was alive she wanted me to call here each time I went up and when I returned. I had my own FSS in her for filing. I am sure she would have gotten SAR going faster than ATC.

 

[ejensen]

I read that the wreck is still at the type of the mountain. What happens with insurance in this case or cases like this? Has the owner been paid and what type of settlement did he get. Did the estates of the pilot or any of the pax's file a claim against the aircraft owner or the club?

The NTSB left it there but I'll bet the insurance company or the owner removed the wreckage this summer. The Forest Service doesn't let them abandon wrecks if they are found. Insurance companies have helicoptered a couple off my Forest in recent years. (Also a couple of snowmobiles).

As I posted last fall, I flew that day from the Denver area to Flagstaff. The mountain were really socked in. We picked our way underneath but couldn't turn west until near Taos. We were probably very close to this aircraft. One of our group went over the top and was at 16,000 for awhile to do it. Another plane out of Durango cancelled due to weather that morning. I suspect he wasn't VFR and either lost control trying to get under or iced up. It was very windy from the SW (30-40 knots) so turbulence is another possibility. The ride was no fun even out of the mountains.

 

[Everskyward]

It's a sad loss that shouldn't have happen given reported conditions, particularly under VFR.

The routine aviation weather report (METAR) at 1030 for the Telluride Regional Airport (TEX), Telluride, Colorado, 9 miles to the northeast of the accident site was ceilings 4,900 feet (above ground level ) broken, 6,500 feet overcast, visibility 10 miles with light rain, temperature 54 degrees Fahrenheit (F), dew point 41-degrees F, winds calm, altimeter 30.08 inches, and remarks, lightning in the distance north and northwest of the airport. The field elevation at TEX is 9,078 feet mean sea level.

While 4,900 feet broken sounds like good VFR in the flatlands, it isn't that way in this area. Even if the bases over the mountains were at the same level as they were over the airport, that still puts them at about 13,900' MSL which is below the summit elevation of Wilson Peak and the accident site. In addition, the weather in the mountains is often localized and changeable. What is being reported at the airport is frequently different than the actual conditions only a few miles away. The attached picture is my attempt to illustrate this. If there was weather being reported in the valley in the background, it would probably only reflect a mid-level scattered layer. Now imagine yourself in a small airplane trying to sneak underneath the area in the foreground. Note that this picture was taken on a much better day than the day of the accident. There is no overcast and no rain showers.

 

[smoore]

That's for sure, "Don't like the current weather in Colorado? Wait 10 minutes or move 10 miles!"

 

[ejensen]

These pictures from the Telluride ramp have Mt. Wilson in the background. They were oh so close.

 

[KennyFlys]

While 4,900 feet broken sounds like good VFR in the flatlands, it isn't that way in this area. <snip>

Sorry, I meant that differently than possibly taken. He was flying under VFR rather than IFR. Conditions were without a doubt IMC at the arrival and probably for some stretch before arrival. Given what the report states, I can't even imagine making a descent under VFR.

He may well have had the skills per Spike's post. But, he sure wasn't using them per the report.

____
I know sometimes folks take "IFR" or "VFR" and infer the person is referring to "IMC" or "VMC." I'll try to remember that next time if it's confusing.

 

[jesse]

Mountain flying is something that I hope I can experiance some day. At the same time--I hope I can find someone that knows what the hell they're doing to teach me.

 

[KennyFlys]

Mountain flying is something that I hope I can experience some day. At the same time--I hope I can find someone that knows what the hell they're doing to teach me.

I understand one could benefit greatly by hooking up with some of the members of Colorado Pilot's Association. They offer frequent training sessions on mountain flying as well as a few instructors teach mountain flying skills. Mark Kolber (Midlifeflyer) is one such instructor from what I've gathered.

 

[jhempel]

This thread has given me a few things to think about.

We fly a lot between ATL and STL. It is fairly flat and we know the route well. I almost never file a flight plan due to the frustrations involved with calling Flight Service. I may start filing again after reading all of this.

We are considering a vacation out west next summer. We are planning on flying our plane out there. I was already concerned about my lack of mountain flying experience. Now I am even more worried. I will plan this trip very carefully.

As mentioned above, the best we can do is learn from it so they didn't die in vain.

My condolences to the families.

 

[SkyHog]

Mountain flying is something that I hope I can experiance some day. At the same time--I hope I can find someone that knows what the hell they're doing to teach me.

If you ever decide to go, let me know. I'm not a CFI, but talking to some of the CFIs I've heard talk about mountain flying, you're better off with me anyways

 

[colomtnflyer]

jhempel-

I might recommend Peak Aviation (formerly Pikes Peak Pilot Center) in KCOS (Colorado Springs) for some mtn training. This was the flight school I was teaching Mtn Flying at for several years. Ask for Robert Dorband (chief instr). www.cospilot.com

The basic mtn training course usually consists of about a 3 hr ground session, which covers routes, weather, hi alt aircraft performance, and survival (among other topics). The ground session is followed by a 3-4 hr flight. During the flight, you will cross 6 mtn passes over 13K each, and land at 4 mtn airports including Gunnison (GUC), Aspen (ASE), Eagle Cty Regional (EGE), and Leadville (LXV @ 9927', the highest in North America).

As the best time to fly is early in the mornings, you may want to plan on the ground session the day before.

 

[bbchien]

One of our group went over the top and was at 16,000 for awhile to do it. Another plane out of Durango cancelled due to weather that morning. I suspect he wasn't VFR and either lost control trying to get under or iced up. It was very windy from the SW (30-40 knots) so turbulence is another possibility. The ride was no fun even out of the mountains.

OVER THE TOP at 16,000? I have difficulty OTT at 21,000 with the deck....sigh.

 

[Everskyward]

Sorry, I meant that differently than possibly taken. He was flying under VFR rather than IFR. Conditions were without a doubt IMC at the arrival and probably for some stretch before arrival. Given what the report states, I can't even imagine making a descent under VFR.

Sorry, I guess I misunderstood you. However, I can see that some pilots who are not familiar with the mountains might make the mistake of thinking that a reasonable-sounding METAR at their destination airport means that their route will be VMC too.

Flying IFR in IMC in this area in a non-turbocharged, non-deiced plane with the conditions that day would also have been really bad idea. With 14,000' mountains you know the MEAs have to be in excess of 16,000'. The freezing level was 12,000' with tops to 20,000' and they would have needed to descend through it. In other words, that was a good day to stop in Cortez, or some other place, and rent a car.

 

[Ghery]

I haven't flown over the Rockies (yet), but I've made a few trips over the Cascades in Washington state. VFR only. I will NOT fly over clouds across the mountains. I'll dodge them, or go under them. If I can't stay clear at my preferred altitudes for the trip (9500 MSL eastbound, 10500 MSL westbound) I'll go around (Columbia River gorge is a great sea level pass through the mountains) or drive.

Oh, and METARS that help are few and far between, if they exist at all. Airports are on one side or the other. And the weather on the east side is almost always better than the west. But over the mountains? I'm better off looking out the window at home and seeing if I can see Mt. Rainier. Helps eastbound, but doesn't work for flying home from the east side.

And when I finally get my IR, what then? That ice machine still worries me. A 182 is definitely not KI.

 

[ejensen]

OVER THE TOP at 16,000? I have difficulty OTT at 21,000 with the deck....sigh.

Yeah, I didn't like hearing it when they arrived. He lives in Granby which was clear and had the out to turn east or south. Still not something I would do. It was a day without much buildup. Just a thick deck over the mountains. Most days you don't go OTT with a piston.

 

[ejensen]

I understand one could benefit greatly by hooking up with some of the members of Colorado Pilot's Association. They offer frequent training sessions on mountain flying as well as a few instructors teach mountain flying skills. Mark Kolber (Midlifeflyer) is one such instructor from what I've gathered.

We have two classes a year. But you can find one of our approved instructors anytime. There are other good courses out of Grand Junction, Gunnison, and Colorado Springs. And I'm sure more I haven't heard about.

www.coloradopilots.org

 

[jhempel]

jhempel-

I might recommend Peak Aviation (formerly Pikes Peak Pilot Center) in KCOS (Colorado Springs) for some mtn training. This was the flight school I was teaching Mtn Flying at for several years. Ask for Robert Dorband (chief instr). www.cospilot.com

The basic mtn training course usually consists of about a 3 hr ground session, which covers routes, weather, hi alt aircraft performance, and survival (among other topics). The ground session is followed by a 3-4 hr flight. During the flight, you will cross 6 mtn passes over 13K each, and land at 4 mtn airports including Gunnison (GUC), Aspen (ASE), Eagle Cty Regional (EGE), and Leadville (LXV @ 9927', the highest in North America).

As the best time to fly is early in the mornings, you may want to plan on the ground session the day before.

Thank you. That is great information. Besides being necessary, it looks like fun training too!

 

[Tom-D]

Knowing the route is the best training you can get. Look at a sectional for the area and find a route that is not over the high country. Because you probably won't get over the high country in the afternoon anyway.