Missing Logs

[Ventucky Red]

Sorry if this has already been debated... to death.... but, I am helping a "yungen" in evaluating an aircraft with missing logbooks and would appreciate some perspective.

The gap in the records stems from the aircraft being sold at an auction in 2011. Since that time, the logs are intact and well-documented, and there are no FAA Form 337s or NTSB reports associated with the aircraft.

I also spoke with the A&P/IA who did the ferry permit, and has maintained the aircraft since 2011. They report that the owner has been diligent with annual inspections and mechanical upkeep, even if cosmetic items haven’t received the same level of attention and to say she is she is "fugly" would be a compliment... fecal matter brown with orange and white accents .what were they thinking back then... and missing interior panels.. but looks don't win races. All the ADs are in compliance including the wing spar inspection ports, and there is no known deferred maintenance. The engine was overhauled approximately 960 hours ago (about 10 years back) by the current owner, with complete and consistent records since 2011. However, the missing logs span from 1980 to 2011—roughly 31 years, which represents 75% of the aircraft’s life. The A&P/IA felt the Hobbs time pretty much reflected the condition of the plane when they got it and there has been no attempt to reconstruct the logs through maintenance records.

So how much does a gap like this typically impact airframe value? When factoring in TTAF, TSOH, avionics, and overall condition, none of the standard valuation tools seem to account for “logbook amnesia,” which leaves a pretty big variable unaddressed. I have done a couple of AI prompts to answer the question and I am getting any where from 15% to 50%. Does anyone here have any experience or expertise on this? That is have you taken this plunge and how did it work out for you?

Thanks

 

[AA5Bman]

IMO, it's one thing to lose 1 logbook from 40 years ago. It's another to lose ALL logbooks 10-15 years ago. I believe the plane will need to be inspected to make sure it conforms to its type certificate and all A/Ds at a minimum. If I were buying the plane and did that inspection and sign-off thoroughly, I could get comfortable buying it, but it would need to be a pretty decent deal.

I'm also pretty tolerant of these kinds of things. I just bought a Cessna from a bush operator with 14,000 hours. Others may feel differently.

 

[Ventucky Red]

IMO, it's one thing to lose 1 logbook from 40 years ago. It's another to lose ALL logbooks 10-15 years ago. I believe the plane will need to be inspected to make sure it conforms to its type certificate and all A/Ds at a minimum. If I were buying the plane and did that inspection and sign-off thoroughly, I could get comfortable buying it, but it would need to be a pretty decent deal.

I'm also pretty tolerant of these kinds of things. I just bought a Cessna from a bush operator with 14,000 hours. Others may feel differently.

The plane was sold at an auction in 2011 and there were no log books in the plane... AIWI. I don't have the backstory on why it was sold that way, but my guess is someone was not paying the rent on the hanger or tie down space. Or just walked away from it, which all see to often at our airports..

It has been well maintained and flown since 2011.

That is what we are trying to figure out, what would be a fair offer without insulting the seller..

 

[Bell206]

So how much does a gap like this typically impact airframe value?

Only what the buyer believes it to be. There is no one method to calculate this as too many variables. Have seen aircraft with one current logbook get top-pay and aircraft with every scrap of paper ever produced kept in its logbook get bottom dollar. So have your buyer subtract his or your value of those missing records and go from there.

 

[schmookeeg]

I assume you've already gotten the "FAA CD" and seen the historical registrations and 337s? That should give a weak signal about care and feeding of the plane prior to 2011, and if you can reconstruct some of those logs or verify the hobbs/tach and general sequence.

I usually start at -20%. Not because the plane is any more or less meritable (that's the prebuy's job to determine), but because of the ballache it causes on resale when the NEXT guy who hears missing logs screams it's a roach

 

[Half Fast]

I didn't see where you said what plane this is. Is it a Piper that's subject to the wing spar inspection? If so, the period not covered by the logbooks will be assumed to have been all 100 hour inspections in the formula FSH = 100N + (T-100N)/17 . Do you at least know the total airframe time, and do you know what the airframe time was when the logs resumed? You might just have to assume that FSH exceeds the inspection threshold, if you can't establish otherwise.

 

[DJTorrente]

I'm just spitballing, but is there any chance to track down the prior owner and see if they will part with their logbooks for a price? I'm not sure how far I'm willing to go down that path, but a chance to spend a few thousand to the owner for what is now worthless paper, with a chance to restore ~20% of the ships value might be worth some shoe leather.

to say she is she is "fugly" would be a compliment... fecal matter brown with orange and white accents .what were they thinking back then...

Those are my alma mater colors! Well, used to be. They morphed the brown to black over the years and feature the white more prominently...
Yeah, it was ugly.

 

[Lama1125]

I'm just spitballing, but is there any chance to track down the prior owner and see if they will part with their logbooks for a price? I'm not sure how far I'm willing to go down that path, but a chance to spend a few thousand to the owner for what is now worthless paper, with a chance to restore ~20% of the ships value might be worth some shoe leather.

The likelihood the old owner still has said logbooks is very low.
Either they passed and the next of kin saw and old box with weird papers and burnt them or once it was going to auction, the old owner tossed them. Could be a rabbit hole with no results.

 

[Hang 4]

I bought a plane with a similar logbook gap. I've had it for 10 years and it's been no better or no worse as a result of what's in the logs. Similar to the plane you are describing, the engine was overhauled about 20 years ago and that's where the engine and airframe logs start. It was diligently maintained (based on the logs) since then and the prior owners had spent quite a bit on avionics upgrades. I did get the FAA CD that has all the 337's and past owners. I am confident the hours are correct and the plane was never owned by a flight school.

I'm sure if I tried to sell it, most folks would try to talk the price down based on missing logs, but I don't really have any plans to sell. That would be one consideration for the OP, if you are planning on selling it after some period of time, it will make it potentially a bit harder to sell.

 

[M20K]

The gap in the records stems from the aircraft being sold at an auction in 2011. Since that time, the logs are intact and well-documented, and there are no FAA Form 337s or NTSB reports associated with the aircraft.

I don't see this as an issue. I would assume the shop that started the maintenance in 2011 or 2012 documented that all the AD, etc. were done and did a thorough annual that first year. And if the plane has been well maintained since then and there are complete logs from 2011(ish) to 2026, the old missing logs are not really relevant. Sure, it would be nice to have them, but even if there were a prop strike or something else in the old logs, it was obviously repaired or the mechanic after the auction or the mechanic that's doing the pre-purchase inspection now in 2026 would have found either issues or signs of repair.

 

[Ventucky Red]

but because of the ballache it causes on resale when the NEXT guy who hears missing logs screams it's a roach

Yes, that is one of the main concerns... resale value...

I'm just spitballing, but is there any chance to track down the prior owner and see if they will part with their logbooks for a price? I'm not sure how far I'm willing to go down that path, but a chance to spend a few thousand to the owner for what is now worthless paper, with a chance to restore ~20% of the ships value might be worth some shoe leather.

Those are my alma mater colors! Well, used to be. They morphed the brown to black over the years and feature the white more prominently...
Yeah, it was ugly.

Thanks... and yes we thought of this....

I don't see this as an issue. I would assume the shop that started the maintenance in 2011 or 2012 documented that all the AD, etc. were done and did a thorough annual that first year. And if the plane has been well maintained since then and there are complete logs from 2011(ish) to 2026, the old missing logs are not really relevant. Sure, it would be nice to have them, but even if there were a prop strike or something else in the old logs, it was obviously repaired or the mechanic after the auction or the mechanic that's doing the pre-purchase inspection now in 2026 would have found either issues or signs of repair.

Yes and one of the reason this plane is in consideration. Looking at the logs for my plane, and I can barley make out the handwriting from the annuals back in the mid 80's...

Appreciate all the guidance... this place is awesome...

 

[Clip4]

sounds like the plane is a bow wow + it has missing logs. Walk and don’t look back.

 

[frfly172]

If this is your forever plane ,and has been flying regularly with current logs,I would t have a problem. As to what it’s worth,whatever some one is willing to pay is hits true value.

 

[M20K]

Yes and one of the reason this plane is in consideration.

What kind of plane and engine? 96 hours a year isn't a lot (based on overhaul & 960 hours), but then it's also not bad if the flying was fairly consistent.

Has the plane been flown at consistent intervals over the years? Say every couple of weeks. Or was it flown, then sat for months, flown a bit and then sat for months. That might be more of an issue than the missing logs.

 

[AlphaPilotFlyer]

auctioned off planes in that time frame were often foreclosures /repos by bank following the 2008 financial reset where disposable income toys were hot hard. it often took years for bank to get the assets and auction it off

often the owner tried using the log books as collateral to deal with bank or simply abandoned boats, planes. cars, jet skis. if possible, if you can find any info on where the plane was based at, you may get lucky looking up shops there at the time by asking around and getting some records to look at. but I wouldn't put too much time into it. yet again you may get lucky.

 

[WDD]

How much time do you want to spend to get this plane to your standards?
How much money?

Are you re doing the interior your self or farming it out? How is the paint? How is the panel?

Getting a "good bargain" that needs $40k avionics, $10k interior, $20k paint kind of takes the "bargain" out of the description.

And........ get a real close look. I've come to believe that if a person let's the plane get shabby, they aren't taking care of other things you can't see. I also checked out, did a pre buy on a 182 that had a "distressed" interior, figuring I could dress it up if the engine and plane were well cared for. They were not, with a lot of things found under the skin.