Missing Logs

Luscombe Driver

Luscombe Driver

Filing Flight Plan
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Feb 13, 2020
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1947
I've been looking at purchasing a restored aircraft that has no logbooks prior to the restoration. The restoration is extremely well documented for both the airframe and engine. The aircraft was a barn find and the original logs were not recovered. The plane is in annual, has a new airworthiness certificate, and is registered. The restoration was completed this fall. What are your thoughts? Do you really need the past logs for a plane that was completely restored?
 
Doc Holliday said:
What kind of plane? Define “completely restored”.
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It's a piper PA20. The plane was taken down to the frame - all tubing was sandblasted, inspected, and repainted. All control cables and hardware replaced. All new wiring, fuel system, landing gear accessories (brakes, tires, bungies). New interior, panel, glass, and doors. The fabric is all new and the engine underwent it's major overhaul. Everything is there... all 337's, documents, and pictures start to finish.
 
Have to agree what is a complete restoration. Depends on the qualifications of the restorer.
 
frfly172 said:
Have to agree what is a complete restoration. Depends on the qualifications of the restorer.
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The restorer had all of the work inspected and signed off by the IA as he progressed (all documented). The engine was overhauled at a local service center (all documented - including parts that went out for inspection and testing). So from a paperwork standpoint the restoration was completed by the book. The finish quality and attention to detail would indicate that the restorer was qualified.
 
Luscombe Driver said:
The restorer had all of the work inspected and signed off by the IA as he progressed (all documented). The engine was overhauled at a local service center (all documented - including parts that went out for inspection and testing). So from a paperwork standpoint the restoration was completed by the book. The finish quality and attention to detail would indicate that the restorer was qualified.
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Technically there doesn’t need to be logs of previous annuals. Only the current annual is required.

Good documentation, AD listing and a engine rebuild by a reputable shop, with records for the parts and work, you should be good to go.

Get the FAA records on file.

Good luck with it.
 
No big deal.
 
Doc Holliday said:
Technically there doesn’t need to be logs of previous annuals. Only the current annual is required.

Good documentation, AD listing and a engine rebuild by a reputable shop, with records for the parts and work, you should be good to go.

Get the FAA records on file.

Good luck with it.
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That was kind of my thought. My Luscombe has all of the logs back to the test flight. It was restored by the Luscombe association in 2001 and everything new from the firewall forward in 2013. So there really isn't a whole lot of 1947 left in the plane (if any). It's neat to look back but otherwise the past doesn't really matter.

I guess I was just curious if others thought this would impact value or be a some type of red flag. I would normally steer clear of a plane that didn't have logs but never thought of one that had gone through a complete restoration.
 
Luscombe Driver said:
Do you really need the past logs for a plane that was completely restored?
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Just to add to the above, as long as you can meet the requirements of 91.417 as the new owner you're good. There are a number of older aircraft out there with similar logs. Also if the restorer won't be the person maintaining it for you perhaps ask your APIA for input as well. Enjoy it.
 
Luscombe Driver said:
I've been looking at purchasing a restored aircraft that has no logbooks prior to the restoration. The restoration is extremely well documented for both the airframe and engine. The aircraft was a barn find and the original logs were not recovered. The plane is in annual, has a new airworthiness certificate, and is registered. The restoration was completed this fall. What are your thoughts? Do you really need the past logs for a plane that was completely restored?
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No problem... go fly..
 
The question was asked, would it affect value? Of course it would. There are some who would not consider a plane without logs. Some would consider purchasing the plane, but very few would ignore the lack of logs, especially if they were ever going to sell it.
 
Eldorado said:
The question was asked, would it affect value? Of course it would. There are some who would not consider a plane without logs. Some would consider purchasing the plane, but very few would ignore the lack of logs, especially if they were ever going to sell it.
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What would the previous logs reveal about the current condition of the aircraft?
 
At this point, does it matter what they might say? The only thing left is the airframe.

make sure there is a discount for the missing logs because you’ll surely have to give one when you sell it. Otherwise, it sounds like a gem of an airplane.
 
Eldorado said:
would it affect value? Of course it would.
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Maybe. It depends on the model and in some cases the year. If talking about a PA28, 182, etc. then yes missing/incomplete logs can affect value depending on the circumstances. However with aircraft like the OPs classic Piper, or old Champs, or Stearmans, or even Bell 47s not so much. A lot of these older aircraft didnt gain value until the 70s/80s and by then quite a few had lost their logs or the logs simply weren't retained from previous years. In my experience, the ground up restoration of the aircraft does more for value than complete logs would.
 
Luscombe Driver said:
I've been looking at purchasing a restored aircraft that has no logbooks prior to the restoration. The restoration is extremely well documented for both the airframe and engine. The aircraft was a barn find and the original logs were not recovered. The plane is in annual, has a new airworthiness certificate, and is registered. The restoration was completed this fall. What are your thoughts? Do you really need the past logs for a plane that was completely restored?
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I'd order up the 337s on file with the FAA to get a look at any major work done in the past.
 
If it’s old enough to be looking for CAA Periodic Inspections signed by a DAMI

I see no point.
 
It would be a rare aircraft the has any log entry that has any historical significant .

other than a journey log for someone famous.
 
AC 43.9C:

12. LOST OR DESTROYED RECORDS. Occasionally, the records for an aircraft are lost or destroyed. In order to reconstruct them, it is necessary to establish the total time in service of the airframe. This can be done by reference to other records that reflect the time in service; research of records maintained by repair facilities; and reference to records maintained by individual mechanics, etc. When these things have been done and the record is still incomplete, the owner/operator may make a notarized statement in the new record describing the loss and establishing the time in service based on the research and the best estimate of time in service.
a. The current status of applicable ADs may present a more formidable problem. This may require a detailed inspection by maintenance personnel to establish that the applicable ADs have been complied with. It can readily be seen that this could entail considerable time, expense, and in some instances, might require the AD being performed again to establish compliance.
b. Other items required by § 91.417(a)(2), such as the current status of life-limited parts, time since last overhaul, current inspection status, and current list of major alterations, may present difficult problems. Some items may be easier to reestablish than others, but all are problems. Losing maintenance records can be troublesome, costly, and time consuming. Safekeeping of the records is an integral part of a good recordkeeping system.
 
rotormatic1 said:
AC 43.9C:

12. LOST OR DESTROYED RECORDS. Occasionally, the records for an aircraft are lost or destroyed. In order to reconstruct them, it is necessary to establish the total time in service of the airframe. This can be done by reference to other records that reflect the time in service; research of records maintained by repair facilities; and reference to records maintained by individual mechanics, etc. When these things have been done and the record is still incomplete, the owner/operator may make a notarized statement in the new record describing the loss and establishing the time in service based on the research and the best estimate of time in service.
a. The current status of applicable ADs may present a more formidable problem. This may require a detailed inspection by maintenance personnel to establish that the applicable ADs have been complied with. It can readily be seen that this could entail considerable time, expense, and in some instances, might require the AD being performed again to establish compliance.
b. Other items required by § 91.417(a)(2), such as the current status of life-limited parts, time since last overhaul, current inspection status, and current list of major alterations, may present difficult problems. Some items may be easier to reestablish than others, but all are problems. Losing maintenance records can be troublesome, costly, and time consuming. Safekeeping of the records is an integral part of a good recordkeeping system.
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Use the ADlog.com pretty simple to comply. Also the A&P-IA may have their records.
think of the 135 guys that may required replacement of those components.
 
A J-3 Piper Cub not much drop in value for lost logs, more of a loss of value is the data tag lost as it just screws into the plywood floor of a J-3. If it's a Twin Seabee big drop in value if the log books are lost.
 
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brien23 said:
A J-3 Piper Cub not much drop in value for lost logs, more of a loss of value is the data tag lost as it just screws into the plywood floor of a J-3. If it's a Twin Seabee big drop in value if the log books are lost.
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What if,,,, the aircraft is already junk? any lost of value.

I'm sure there are aircraft that have info in their logs that the owners would gladly pay to destroy the logs.
 
brien23 said:
A J-3 Piper Cub not much drop in value for lost logs, more of a loss of value is the data tag lost as it just screws into the plywood floor of a J-3. If it's a Twin Seabee big drop in value if the log books are lost.
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or a Grumman AA5X due to time limited wing spar.
 
Rcmutz said:
or a Grumman AA5X due to time limited wing spar.
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In the case of the Grummans, they would become salvage if the airframe total time could not be determined and documented due to the life limited wing spars.
 
Eldorado said:
The question was asked, would it affect value? Of course it would. There are some who would not consider a plane without logs. Some would consider purchasing the plane, but very few would ignore the lack of logs, especially if they were ever going to sell it.
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Like all things.....the answer is 'it depends'.

No single black and white answer to the question.

Some cases, old logs could be critical for airworthiness as was suggested above.

Some cases, missing logs can have a big impact on value from a resale standpoint.

Other cases, missing logs have zero effect on airworthiness or value.

My 1933 Waco was a complete restoration. Original logs before the restoration were lost (previous owner before the restoration had dementia and no telling where those logs went). Effect on value - none. We had the FAA 337s and other records on file and the original stamped serial number on the frame. I never even brought it up as an issue of it when I was negotiating with the seller. Sure, there will be tire kickers who will claim that would stop them from buying it....but let's be real - those people wouldn't have bought an airplane like that anyway.

None of those multi-million dollar warbird restorations have their full logs. Doesn't effect those prices.

A 172 or Bonanza with missing logs on the other hand is probably going to take a hit in value simply because there are so many others on the market without missing logs.

For the OP, your question might be best answered by members of a type club who are more familiar with the market.
 
pigpenracing said:
I bought my J-3 and actually paid top dollar for it. It was restored in 2014 and the logs start in 2014.
I could care less... I plan to keep it forever.
View attachment 91873
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2014 must have been a good year for restored airplanes with no logs - that's when I bought the Waco.
 
Tom-D said:
It would be a rare aircraft the has any log entry that has any historical significant .

other than a journey log for someone famous.
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What's funny is there was some speculation that the reason my original logs went 'missing' is due to a connection with Amelia Earhart. No way of knowing if there was ever any truth to that other than the original owner knew Earhart.
 
Fearless Tower said:
What's funny is there was some speculation that the reason my original logs went 'missing' is due to a connection with Amelia Earhart. No way of knowing if there was ever any truth to that other than the original owner knew Earhart.
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Compare the date the FAA stopped requiring journey logs, and the date your aircraft was made?
 
I would check the serial number in the NTSB data base to make sure this barn find was not totaled in an accident.
 
Luscombe Driver said:
I've been looking at purchasing a restored aircraft that has no logbooks prior to the restoration. The restoration is extremely well documented for both the airframe and engine. The aircraft was a barn find and the original logs were not recovered. The plane is in annual, has a new airworthiness certificate, and is registered. The restoration was completed this fall. What are your thoughts? Do you really need the past logs for a plane that was completely restored?
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This all depends on the aircraft and what your going to do with it. I have done hundreds of pre buy inspections for buyers. I automatically ding the aircraft value 20%. There is no way of telling if there is damage history or not. Log book are as important as the aircraft itself. Your airplane not having any books other than the one created at restoration will be a hard sell and no where near market value of similar models with complete logs. Hopefully you got a great deal on it.
 
Ron Stowell said:
This all depends on the aircraft and what your going to do with it. I have done hundreds of pre buy inspections for buyers. I automatically ding the aircraft value 20%. There is no way of telling if there is damage history or not. Log book are as important as the aircraft itself. Your airplane not having any books other than the one created at restoration will be a hard sell and no where near market value of similar models with complete logs. Hopefully you got a great deal on it.
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And how many aircraft out there with logbooks have hidden damage history that was never documented or poorly documented? Lots.

Same goes with history of maintenance and repairs. Some logbooks offer very detailed inspection and maintenance write ups while many others off bare minimal documentation, yet either one qualifies as complete logbooks.

An automatic ding of 20% is just a personal observation and not based on anything when determining value. For too many years we've watched rags like AOPA Pilot, Flying, Plane and Pilot, etc write endless articles on prebuys that do nothing but perpetuate myths and mistruths, often written by people that have never preformed a prebuy themselves.

An airplanes value is what someone will pay the seller. An older airplane that has undergone a complete restoration such as the OP described will have minimal impact on previous logbooks. A more modern airplane that is flying with lost logs will sustain impact on value.
 
Doc Holliday said:
And how many aircraft out there with logbooks have hidden damage history that was never documented or poorly documented? Lots.

Same goes with history of maintenance and repairs. Some logbooks offer very detailed inspection and maintenance write ups while many others off bare minimal documentation, yet either one qualifies as complete logbooks.

An automatic ding of 20% is just a personal observation and not based on anything when determining value. For too many years we've watched rags like AOPA Pilot, Flying, Plane and Pilot, etc write endless articles on prebuys that do nothing but perpetuate myths and mistruths, often written by people that have never preformed a prebuy themselves.

An airplanes value is what someone will pay the seller. An older airplane that has undergone a complete restoration such as the OP described will have minimal impact on previous logbooks. A more modern airplane that is flying with lost logs will sustain impact on value.
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Agreed. The missing, incorrect and in some cases fraudulent info in log books are terrible. At my shop we do some of the most extensive log book entries out there. As professionals, we enter every single reference, chapter PN/SN on and off and why it was removed. I look at every entry as to what I would have to say on the witness stand, and my sign offs reflect every this that is done right down to the revision and date.

I recently have a customer with a Cessna 182 and the flaps would just not match up for rigging. After going through the logs, I found in the late 1980's there was an N# change. The old N# in the NTSB accident data base show a major accident, Pilot could not activate the runway lights and plowed into a field, flipped over with major damage. NOT ONE entry for repairs then it was sold. THAT is criminal!
 
While my logs are complete, I wonder at the real value of them. I've digitized the hundreds of pages for the 50+ year plane. Who would really notice the one line 38 years ago about repairing the stab from a hanger collapse unless I told them where to look? Still - I have them all. I have a lot of value on the up to date AD lists - not too much about replacing spark plugs in 1981.
 
Tom-D said:
Compare the date the FAA stopped requiring journey logs, and the date your aircraft was made?
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Was that actually a requirement at one time? If I know it is in some other countries, and the older logs (which were not complete, and I didn't worry about it) for my 1941 Taylorcraft did indeed record every flight. Fun to look at but not that useful. Experimentals usually record every flight during the phase 1 test period, then only show maintenance and repairs.
 
Should the parts used in a rebuild have corresponding form 8130-3?
 
CA182R said:
Should the parts used in a rebuild have corresponding form 8130-3?
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Define rebuild. It also depends what item is worked on and who performed the work. Not all parts qualify for an 8130 and not everyone can issue an 8130.
 
CA182R said:
Should the parts used in a rebuild have corresponding form 8130-3?
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not required. Airworthiness of a part is up to the person that is returning it to service.
 
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