Mins question (from ATP written)

flyingcheesehead

flyingcheesehead

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Okay, here's another question I couldn't figure out the answer of for sure.

Given this plate:
attachment.php


What minimums can you fly the LOC 9L approach to in a Category C turbine-powered aircraft? That is all the information that was given.
 
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Looks like 213/24 for the straight in ILS unless youhave a flight director, autopilot, or HUD coupled to the approach in which case you can take it down to 1800 RVR with the DA remaining at 213.
 
GCA319 said:
Looks like 213/24 for the straight in ILS unless youhave a flight director, autopilot, or HUD coupled to the approach in which case you can take it down to 1800 RVR with the DA remaining at 213.
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Whoops... I omitted one important detail (now fixed) that made it way too easy! You're flying the LOC, not the ILS. Now what's the answer?
 
flyingcheesehead said:
Whoops... I omitted one important detail (now fixed) that made it way too easy! You're flying the LOC, not the ILS. Now what's the answer?
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760/1 3/4 or 440/40 if you use the LANDI stepdown. Though, I seem to remember this question having a catch to it. Give me a second to look it up on my ATP prepare (which, btw, I promised to never look at again since I passed it on Friday ;))
 
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Hmmm can't find the question at the second. This could have been one of the "validation" questions the FAA threw in as an extra.
 
What are the choices?

I'd need more info to pick a single MDA/vis min.

Is this CTL or straight in?
Will you be able to detect LANDI (DME, IFR GPS, or 2nd VOR)?

Also I can't remember what the second set of numbers is for but I think they're for military use. For the straight in mins the difference is equal to the difference between the TDZE and airport elevation but for the circling mins the difference is greater than that.
 
The version of this question that I got on the ATP test last week, used the identical approach, but asked for the minimums on the ILS (for a Turbine Cat C aircraft).

I answered 213/24.

I got it wrong.

One of the other answers was RVR 1800, the other answer was completely out of the question. So I have to assume the "right" answer was RVR 1800, which I disagree with - it assumes facts not in evidence.
 
GCA319 said:
760/1 3/4 or 440/40 if you use the LANDI stepdown.
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Those were both options... There was a third, but I can't remember it as it didn't really make any sense anyway.

Though, I seem to remember this question having a catch to it.
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I believe so, though the catch I thought up while I was taking the test (which apparently worked, I did get this question right) may or may not have been the same catch as you knew.

Give me a second to look it up on my ATP prepare (which, btw, I promised to never look at again since I passed it on Friday ;))
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Congrats! (and sorry. ;))

GCA319 said:
Hmmm can't find the question at the second. This could have been one of the "validation" questions the FAA threw in as an extra.
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Nope, I was notified at the start of the exam that there were no validation questions on mine.

gismo said:
What are the choices?

I'd need more info to pick a single MDA/vis min.
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Exactly... And that's why I asked this question. I did get it right, but via a kind of obscure link that isn't necessarily true.

Is this CTL or straight in?
Will you be able to detect LANDI (DME, IFR GPS, or 2nd VOR)?
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I'm not sure if they specifically said straight in, but they may have. They did NOT specify whether you can detect LANDI.
 
RussR said:
The version of this question that I got on the ATP test last week, used the identical approach, but asked for the minimums on the ILS (for a Turbine Cat C aircraft).

I answered 213/24.

I got it wrong.

One of the other answers was RVR 1800, the other answer was completely out of the question. So I have to assume the "right" answer was RVR 1800, which I disagree with - it assumes facts not in evidence.
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I got that version on mine. Thankfully, I remembered the correct answer being RVR 1800 or else I may have chosen the more complete answer like you did.
 
gismo said:
What are the choices?

I'd need more info to pick a single MDA/vis min.

Is this CTL or straight in?
Will you be able to detect LANDI (DME, IFR GPS, or 2nd VOR)?

Also I can't remember what the second set of numbers is for but I think they're for military use. For the straight in mins the difference is equal to the difference between the TDZE and airport elevation but for the circling mins the difference is greater than that.
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The second set of numbers in parenthesis are for military use. Essentially the same as QFE ops overseas.
 
flyingcheesehead said:
What minimums can you fly the LOC 9L approach to in a Category C turbine-powered aircraft? That is all the information that was given.
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Insufficient data -- you don't know if the aircraft systems can identify LANDI, which requires DME or IFR GPS. Of course, if the answer choices included only one of 760/1-3/4 and 440/40, I'd pick that. But if they were both choices, there would be no way to answer. And that's assuming it was straight-in, not circling. So, I'd like to see the full question as printed, plus the answers as printed.
 
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Ron Levy said:
Insufficient data -- you don't know if the aircraft systems can identify LANDI, which requires DME or IFR GPS. Of course, if the answer choices included only one of 760/1-3/4 and 440/40, I'd pick that. But if they were both choices, there would be no way to answer. And that's assuming it was straight-in, not circling. So, I'd like to see the full question as printed, plus the answers as printed.
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For instance the question might have asked for the "lowest applicable mins" or "controlling mins" (which are usually if not always just the visibility numbers). IOW AFaIK you are legal to continue on an approach if you have the required components of the runway environment at the MDA even if the reported ceiling is below that but only if your "flight visibility" or RVR is at or greater than the visibility requirements of the approach category you're flying.
 
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Ron Levy said:
Insufficient data -- you don't know if the aircraft systems can identify LANDI, which requires DME or IFR GPS. Of course, if the answer choices included only one of 760/1-3/4 and 440/40, I'd pick that. But if they were both choices, there would be no way to answer. And that's assuming it was straight-in, not circling.
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Yup - As written, there was no way to give a sure answer to the question based on the information provided.

So, I'd like to see the full question as printed, plus the answers as printed.
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Well, that's just the ***** of it all, they won't let you take a smartphone or camera into the test, they won't even let you keep your scratch paper afterwards. So there's no way to get the questions any more, so who knows how many of them are incorrect. :incazzato:
 
gismo said:
For instance the question might have asked for the "lowest applicable mins" or "controlling mins" (which are usually if not always just the visibility numbers).
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Nope... No such information.

FWIW, since they included "turbine powered" which seems irrelevant, I took that to be an intentionally-included clue. Since most turbine-powered aircraft are going to be cruising above FL240 and 91.205(e) kinda requires them to have DME, I went with the fix minimums (440) and got it right.

Still, ****ty question.
 
When I took the written earlier this week there were two flight planning questions based on the same information. One wanted ETE and the other wanted required fuel. None of the answers on the ETE question came close to what I calculated, but one of the fuel answers did match what I had calculated (+/- round-off errors). I then calculated fuel answers for each of the three ETE answers and none of them were listed as answers to the fuel burn question.
 
Well, as a referee I have to give the FAA a Red Card for that question. Ron is correct in that there is just plain insufficient information (as provided to us) for an answer.
Having to back reason that a Cat C turbine is likely to have arrived to this approach from an altitude requiring a DME or IFR-GPS as standard equipment in order to have a reason to select the LANDI RVR1800 combination is not defensible.
 
Dr. O said:
Well, as a referee I have to give the FAA a Red Card for that question. Ron is correct in that there is just plain insufficient information (as provided to us) for an answer.
Having to back reason that a Cat C turbine is likely to have arrived to this approach from an altitude requiring a DME or IFR-GPS as standard equipment in order to have a reason to select the LANDI RVR1800 combination is not defensible.
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Where do you see a "LANDI RVR1800 combination?"
 
Are people really this confused about a straightforward question?

It's a Cat C turbine (in other words, big, expensive, and 99.9999% chance of it being equipped with a full flight deck).

Starting off:
1) 760-1 3/4 for Loc 9L
2) Change it to 760- RVR 1800 since it presumably has a FD or AP [assumption, but how many IFR turbines don't have one?]
3) Reduce down to 440-RVR 1800 for LANDI mins with FD or AP [again, how many IFR turbines don't have a second VOR or IFR GPS].
 
RussR said:
The version of this question that I got on the ATP test last week, used the identical approach, but asked for the minimums on the ILS (for a Turbine Cat C aircraft).

I answered 213/24.

I got it wrong.

One of the other answers was RVR 1800, the other answer was completely out of the question. So I have to assume the "right" answer was RVR 1800, which I disagree with - it assumes facts not in evidence.
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For the ILS it appears to be 1800 if properly equipped.

warthog1984 said:
Are people really this confused about a straightforward question?

It's a Cat C turbine (in other words, big, expensive, and 99.9999% chance of it being equipped with a full flight deck).

Starting off:
1) 760-1 3/4 for Loc 9L
2) Change it to 760- RVR 1800 since it presumably has a FD or AP [assumption, but how many IFR turbines don't have one?]
3) Reduce down to 440-RVR 1800 for LANDI mins with FD or AP [again, how many IFR turbines don't have a second VOR or IFR GPS].
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How do you get the 1800 RVR on the LOC approach? As I read it, the double ** applies to the ILS approach.
 
warthog1984 said:
Are people really this confused about a straightforward question?

It's a Cat C turbine (in other words, big, expensive, and 99.9999% chance of it being equipped with a full flight deck).

Starting off:
1) 760-1 3/4 for Loc 9L
2) Change it to 760- RVR 1800 since it presumably has a FD or AP [assumption, but how many IFR turbines don't have one?]
3) Reduce down to 440-RVR 1800 for LANDI mins with FD or AP [again, how many IFR turbines don't have a second VOR or IFR GPS].
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The original question was about the LOC 9L so you can't reduce to 1800 RVR since the ** symbol only applies to the ILS.
 
Dr. O said:
Well, as a referee I have to give the FAA a Red Card for that question. Ron is correct in that there is just plain insufficient information (as provided to us) for an answer.
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I'd hold off handing out red cards until I saw the actual question and answers, and the OP admits not being sure the question as posted is an accurate copy of the actual question.
 
Ron Levy said:
I'd hold off handing out red cards until I saw the actual question and answers, and the OP admits not being sure the question as posted is an accurate copy of the actual question.
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Maybe not word for word, but the amount of information given is accurate - That is, insufficient to make a 100% determination.
 
The way the ATP written was done, if it doesn't say you can't do something in the notes, you can have the most advanced equipment for the approach. If it was worded for the ILS, you have the flight director and autopilot to shoot it down to RVR 1800. I don't remember what the answer was, but I am willing to bet it is down to the LANDI fix minimums for a Category C.
 
Gucci Pilot said:
The way the ATP written was done, if it doesn't say you can't do something in the notes, you can have the most advanced equipment for the approach. If it was worded for the ILS, you have the flight director and autopilot to shoot it down to RVR 1800. I don't remember what the answer was, but I am willing to bet it is down to the LANDI fix minimums for a Category C.
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I'm curious about the source for this. Was that information part of the boilerplate instructions for the ATP test or information from somewhere else? On the face of it, these questions, including the graph question in the other thread, don't seem proper--egregiously so. I'd like to think there's a simple explanation because, as worded in these threads, these kinds of questions undermine the integrity of knowledge tests leading to the cynical attitude of just memorizing the "right" answer (the one the FAA wants), checking the box and "moving on".

dtuuri
 
dtuuri said:
I'm curious about the source for this. Was that information part of the boilerplate instructions for the ATP test or information from somewhere else? On the face of it, these questions, including the graph question in the other thread, don't seem proper--egregiously so. I'd like to think there's a simple explanation because, as worded in these threads, these kinds of questions undermine the integrity of knowledge tests leading to the cynical attitude of just memorizing the "right" answer (the one the FAA wants), checking the box and "moving on".

dtuuri
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There were quite a few ATP questions where the correct answer isn't the one the FAA is looking for. No source. All that came from people's trial and error and informing Sheppard Air.
 
Gucci Pilot said:
There were quite a few ATP questions where the correct answer isn't the one the FAA is looking for. No source. All that came from people's trial and error and informing Sheppard Air.
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Then the crappy attitudes people have toward the FAA knowledge tests are understandable.

dtuuri
 
dtuuri said:
On the face of it, these questions, including the graph question in the other thread, don't seem proper--egregiously so. I'd like to think there's a simple explanation because, as worded in these threads, these kinds of questions undermine the integrity of knowledge tests leading to the cynical attitude of just memorizing the "right" answer (the one the FAA wants), checking the box and "moving on".
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That's EXACTLY what I've been mad about. I've always felt that the FAA tests are more about memorization and checking a box than learning the material.

If it was about learning and knowing the material, they wouldn't have questions that are worded in ways that are intentionally confusing. They wouldn't try to keep the questions and answers that you do get wrong a secret, they'd let you take them home and re-learn the material.

Unfortunately, those aren't the case... And it seems those who do the rote memorization method finish faster and get better scores, thus encouraging the furtherance of this whole asinine thing. :mad2:
 
flyingcheesehead said:
That's EXACTLY what I've been mad about. I've always felt that the FAA tests are more about memorization and checking a box than learning the material.
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That's what it's degenerated into, but in my time I think they were able to write much better questions in the first place. The test should toss every applicant a series of random, straight-forward questions drawn from a bank made from the materials the FAA deems an applicant should be familiar with. No two tests should be exactly the same and the questions ought to be secret. It would then be much harder to study (memorize?) for the test and less people would attain perfect or near-perfect scores. Then, they wouldn't have to resort to trick questions to lower the aggregate averages. I'd much rather be asked a properly worded question (accurately lifted from the reference material), like how a remote compass works, that I don't happen to remember, than to be asked a badly worded question designed to trip up everybody who doesn't happen to know how others fared with the same question.

Maybe, though, I give the FAA too much credit for being devious. Possibly, the test authors are simply dumb, ignorant slobs who don't even know enough to recognize a bad question when they write it? :dunno:

dtuuri
 
dtuuri said:
That's what it's degenerated into, but in my time I think they were able to write much better questions in the first place. The test should toss every applicant a series of random, straight-forward questions drawn from a bank made from the materials the FAA deems an applicant should be familiar with. No two tests should be exactly the same and the questions ought to be secret. It would then be much harder to study (memorize?) for the test and less people would attain perfect or near-perfect scores. Then, they wouldn't have to resort to trick questions to lower the aggregate averages. I'd much rather be asked a properly worded question (accurately lifted from the reference material), like how a remote compass works, that I don't happen to remember, than to be asked a badly worded question designed to trip up everybody who doesn't happen to know how others fared with the same question.

Maybe, though, I give the FAA too much credit for being devious. Possibly, the test authors are simply dumb, ignorant slobs who don't even know enough to recognize a bad question when they write it? :dunno:

dtuuri
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I used to write tests for an industry certification. Some questions are there to test the test and are not included in the candidate's final score. I can't answer for the FAAs model, but the group that I worked in my 2nd year, we were tasked with tossing out memorization type questions and focus on understanding questions. Trick questions were also disallowed but distracting answers were fair game.
 
Why do you need GPS/DME to identify LANDI?

It appears to be indicated as the 010 radial off of OOD, no DME required.
 
A lot of the Aerodynamics questions from the ATP don't even come from an FAA book. They come from "Aerodynamics for Naval Aviators" You would think if they were going to use this text for questions, they would make it available to you.

Just looked up the new written. They ATP Multi-engine is 125 questions and you get 4 hours. The single engine is now 90 questions and you get 3 hours.
 
Gucci Pilot said:
A lot of the Aerodynamics questions from the ATP don't even come from an FAA book. They come from "Aerodynamics for Naval Aviators"
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Yes. In years gone by they lifted information out of context in their zeal to frame a certain question. Didn't bother to read the whole chapter to understand their question resulted in an inappropriate "right answer". Wouldn't surprise me if it's still in the question bank. I'll try to remember it later.

dtuuri
 
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