MidAir at Centennial Airport Cirrus and Metroliner

denverpilot said:
Kinda. There’s actually a full fledged Navy facility on the north side. But as mentioned, it’s ummmm only peripherally related to “aviation”... heh heh.

I think in general BKF just doesn’t want airplanes — unless the airplane in question is bringing in heavy data center toys. Ha.

They “put up with” CO ANG and CAP.

And we both know the background check silliness to even get to the dilapidated old hangar... heh.

Heck, if they wanted aviation there they could upgrade those arresting wires and really let the Navy practice... haha.
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I think they renovated hangar 9 just to get rid of CAP.
 
murphey said:
I think they renovated hangar 9 just to get rid of CAP.
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Ooh. I forgot about the renovation. LOL.

I mean not a bad idea before the old one fell down in a summer thunderstorm I suppose... hahaha.

Okay I kid. I kid. It was built like a tank. But man it was old.
 
I asked the photographer for permission to share. Taken yesterday. :)

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He claims it’s VFC-12s first Super Hornet.
 
Correction: Their second Super Hornet.

Because apparently I can’t read today. LOL
 
I've seen them on the ramp there, they look so heavy, you wonder how they can fly. And then you think about how much power they have and how fast they go!
 
Wagondriver said:
I've seen them on the ramp there, they look so heavy, you wonder how they can fly. And then you think about how much power they have and how fast they go!
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An atomic bomb’s sound can reach 280 decibels. For comparison, that is roughly halfway between a Metroliner starting up and a Metroliner at flight idle.
 
Saw a photo of a Harrier the other day, fully kitted out with tanks and all sorts of other isht hanging from its pylons. Didn't seem like it was remotely possible to get adequate airflow over the wing for lift. Thing was dirtier than a two dollar wh... uh... it was REALLY aerodynamically dirty. It was the perfect example of power overcoming everything else.
 
This accident may impact future parallel runway operations. Thankfully it was a good outcome for all involved. But in the future if you are asked to extend or hold in place it will likely be due to this accident.
 
woodchucker said:
This accident may impact future parallel runway operations. Thankfully it was a good outcome for all involved. But in the future if you are asked to extend or hold in place it will likely be due to this accident.
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Having aircraft side by side on parallel approaches 700 feet apart probably isn't a good idea. At the very least they should stagger them. The potential for an overshoot is way too high to. 700 feet is not much separation.
 
midwestpa24 said:
Having aircraft side by side on parallel approaches 700 feet apart probably isn't a good idea. At the very least they should stagger them. The potential for an overshoot is way too high to. 700 feet is not much separation.
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Seriously? I was landing within 700 feet of c-130s while I was a student pilot. If you can’t stay within 300 feet of the centerline on final, you shouldn’t be a PIC IMO.
 
Yeah, some stagger. I’d also say, if the joining A/C doesn’t call the other traffic in sight, cancel the approach clearance.
 
midwestpa24 said:
Having aircraft side by side on parallel approaches 700 feet apart probably isn't a good idea. At the very least they should stagger them. The potential for an overshoot is way too high to. 700 feet is not much separation.
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The runways are staggered. Go look at the airport diagram chart. Come to KAPA and fly the patterns off both runways.
 
murphey said:
The runways are staggered. Go look at the airport diagram chart. Come to KAPA and fly the patterns off both runways.
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I used to fly into KAPA once or twice a month. While I was aware of other traffic on the parallel, I never had any concerns about the distance.



Folks that don't like parallels might wanna stay away from DFW then...:lol:

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Atlanta is just as bad or worse.
 
Salty said:
Seriously? I was landing within 700 feet of c-130s while I was a student pilot. If you can’t stay within 300 feet of the centerline on final, you shouldn’t be a PIC IMO.
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I really think this guy was just too fast, he had atc jabbering in his ear about traffic, so he was looking for the traffic and before he knew it he blew through final. He was behind the airplane.
 
midwestpa24 said:
Having aircraft side by side on parallel approaches 700 feet apart probably isn't a good idea. At the very least they should stagger them. The potential for an overshoot is way too high to. 700 feet is not much separation.
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They do parallel ops at SEE and MYF (where I am based) and it can be an interesting view as you turn final for 28R and there's a guy coming right us making the left turn to their final. I'm not sure how close the runways are, but I'd bet good money it's closer than 700 ft.. probably more like 300

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Every time I'm making that turn and see a 172's landing light point right at me I'm tempted to yell "he's coming right at us!" I assume the view out his front window with an Aztec barreling down at him isn't much better!
 
Tantalum said:
They do parallel ops at SEE and MYF (where I am based) and it can be an interesting view as you turn final for 28R and there's a guy coming right us making the left turn to their final. I'm not sure how close the runways are, but I'd bet good money it's closer than 700 ft.. probably more like 300

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Every time I'm making that turn and see a 172's landing light point right at me I'm tempted to yell "he's coming right at us!" I assume the view out his front window with an Aztec barreling down at him isn't much better!
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Looks like about 500 between center lines. Ask the Tower

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Anyone found ATC recordings? It would be interesting to listen to what was said prior to the collision.

I can see a possible situation where the Cirrus pilot was overly fixated on looking for the parallel traffic that they missed/overshot the turn to final.
 
murphey said:
The runways are staggered. Go look at the airport diagram chart. Come to KAPA and fly the patterns off both runways.
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KMIC Crystal is a similar runway setup, but probably only sees a fraction of the traffic that KAPA does and probably zero Metroliners. 14R/32L and 14L/32R have the same thresholds and their centerlines are 325 feet apart. I doubt there's a closer-spaced example of parallel runways to be found.
 
murphey said:
The runways are staggered. Go look at the airport diagram chart. Come to KAPA and fly the patterns off both runways.
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The runways may be, but the tower could have had the Cirrus turn base a little sooner or later so that they weren't turning final exactly in formation with the Metro. Think in terms of being a low wing, the outside of your turn is your blindspot. Or give aircraft joining parallel finals a wider pattern or shallower entry angle into the final, to reduce the possibility of an overshoot.

And yes I'm aware parallel runways exist. Notice at the majority of the bigger airports (SFO excluded), there is a lot more distance between runways, and aircraft are being put on an instrument approach. Even then brain farts happen, like the recent case of a regional jet at ORD that turned 010 instead of 100 on departure and nearly caused a mid-air.

 
luvflyin said:
Looks like about 500 between center lines. Ask the Tower

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Thanks, and I didn't think to check with Foreflight! TBH I didn't know it would get down to that level of granularity. 500' makes sense, but doesn't leave much room for error, especially when I'd say 75% of the traffic are student pilots
 
Fearless Tower said:
Anyone found ATC recordings? It would be interesting to listen to what was said prior to the collision.

I can see a possible situation where the Cirrus pilot was overly fixated on looking for the parallel traffic that they missed/overshot the turn to final.
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Go back to the first page or so. Post #29 is me pointing out the times in the 17L recording that @denverpilot had posted and posts #52 and #62 have links and times in the 17R recording.
 
Salty said:
Seriously? I was landing within 700 feet of c-130s while I was a student pilot. If you can’t stay within 300 feet of the centerline on final, you shouldn’t be a PIC IMO.
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Oh right.

Go out to your favorite Google map, plot out what 300' looks like, at 3.5 miles out, at 1000' agl.

You might 'think' you're maintaining centerline.
 
Tantalum said:
Thanks, and I didn't think to check with Foreflight! TBH I didn't know it would get down to that level of granularity. 500' makes sense, but doesn't leave much room for error, especially when I'd say 75% of the traffic are student pilots
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Yeah. I make lousy turns to final at close parallel runway airports. Always seem to undershoot.
 
iamtheari said:
KMIC Crystal is a similar runway setup, but probably only sees a fraction of the traffic that KAPA does and probably zero Metroliners. 14R/32L and 14L/32R have the same thresholds and their centerlines are 325 feet apart. I doubt there's a closer-spaced example of parallel runways to be found.
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midwestpa24 said:
Having aircraft side by side on parallel approaches 700 feet apart probably isn't a good idea. At the very least they should stagger them. The potential for an overshoot is way too high to. 700 feet is not much separation.
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If towers were to be required to call the base for every aircraft in the pattern when there's someone using the parallel runway, it seems like that would be a substantial increase in controller workload at some airports (with potential safety costs of its own).
 
iamtheari said:
KMIC Crystal is a similar runway setup, but probably only sees a fraction of the traffic that KAPA does and probably zero Metroliners. 14R/32L and 14L/32R have the same thresholds and their centerlines are 325 feet apart. I doubt there's a closer-spaced example of parallel runways to be found.
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Compton KCPM is pretty cozy

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After the Gryder video, I was thinking this was the controller's fault too, but as several have pointed out here, the Cirrus guy reported the metroliner in sight, then was told to follow the Cessna in front. That was not an instruction to turn base, and the Cirrus could've extended a bit on his own. I don't know if this happened here, but don't ever call traffic in sight if you don't see it, or just see it on TAS.
 
woodchucker said:
This accident may impact future parallel runway operations. Thankfully it was a good outcome for all involved. But in the future if you are asked to extend or hold in place it will likely be due to this accident.
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There was a time I’d have said, no way, that ain’t gonna happen. Fewer incidents than you can count on one hand after losing a finger in a buzz saw out of billions of operations. But nowadays I ain’t so sure...........
 
Each of DFW's runways are 1200' from its closest parallel. The two sets of runways are over a mile apart. The close runways at ATL are 1000' apart and the two pairs are separated by the terminals and about 4000'

The old DEN Stapleton had the east-west runways closer together. Newark has only 900' between its centerlines. However, I think SFO is still the biggest airport with the closest parallels (only 700').
 
do they still do LAHSO operations at intersecting airports? I remember back in the day you'd be landing at KBOS and out the passenger window you could see a clown on the intersecting runway coming right for you. Inevitably either we'd stop first or they'd be in the air prior to intersecting but it was always a unique visual
 
Tantalum said:
do they still do LAHSO operations at intersecting airports? I remember back in the day you'd be landing at KBOS and out the passenger window you could see a clown on the intersecting runway coming right for you. Inevitably either we'd stop first or they'd be in the air prior to intersecting but it was always a unique visual
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Yeah. It’s a lot more restrictive nowadays than it was many years ago.
 
more and more aircraft operations and not enough new runways to handle it... of course people have been looking at increasing airport capacity... they've been looking at it for more than 30 years.
 
Cloudhound said:
Oh right.

Go out to your favorite Google map, plot out what 300' looks like, at 3.5 miles out, at 1000' agl.

You might 'think' you're maintaining centerline.
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Pulled this from my last landing yesterday in a 40 knot crosswind. The furthest I was from centerline was 1.1 degrees which works out to 101 feet.
Cloudhound said:
Oh right.

Go out to your favorite Google map, plot out what 300' looks like, at 3.5 miles out, at 1000' agl.

You might 'think' you're maintaining centerline.
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so I did. Here’s the data from CloudAhoy on my last straight in approach. I was less than 300’ from centerline the entire time.

At 3.5 miles out I’m right on the money.

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Worst I got was no more than 300 feet as shown in the google earth below it.
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Fearless Tower said:
Anyone found ATC recordings? It would be interesting to listen to what was said prior to the collision.

I can see a possible situation where the Cirrus pilot was overly fixated on looking for the parallel traffic that they missed/overshot the turn to final.
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Posted above long ago.
 
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