MidAir at Centennial Airport Cirrus and Metroliner

Max Trescott put forth a convincing theory on his podcast that the cirrus driver left seat passenger was flying the vfr pattern on AUTOPILOT.

Then this week he heard from a Cirrus pilot that there are CSIPs who TEACH this!:hairraise:

If that's the case, this guy, and anyone teaching to do it, should have their tickets pulled ala Martha lunken.
 
There’s a guy at my airport that flies his sr-22 at about 150 in the pattern. He blew by me one time when I was doing 130 on a 45 for the downwind and he went by me straight into the downwind doing at least 150. No radio calls until after I saw him fly by. He also does atitppa when he finally does tune the radio.
 
Tantalum said:
do they still do LAHSO operations at intersecting airports? I remember back in the day you'd be landing at KBOS and out the passenger window you could see a clown on the intersecting runway coming right for you. Inevitably either we'd stop first or they'd be in the air prior to intersecting but it was always a unique visual
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Yes, but there have been rule changes on the ATC side which make it more restrictive; and from what has been previously posted many Part 21 and charter operators have rules preventing accepting LAHSO

Tim
 
Jim K said:
Max Trescott put forth a convincing theory on his podcast that the cirrus driver left seat passenger was flying the vfr pattern on AUTOPILOT.

Then this week he heard from a Cirrus pilot that there are CSIPs who TEACH this!:hairraise:

If that's the case, this guy, and anyone teaching to do it, should have their tickets pulled ala Martha lunken.
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Can you provide a link? I have never heard of a CSIP teaching this and would want to post about it in COPA.

Tim
 
I can't understand flying the pattern at over double the stall speed. This isn't the case where you need to keep your speed up while on final to a major airport with a 767 breathing down your rear (I've regularly flown 160 Kt approaches into IAD but I knew how to slow down quickly when right at the runway).
 
Jim K said:
Max Trescott put forth a convincing theory on his podcast that the cirrus driver left seat passenger was flying the vfr pattern on AUTOPILOT.

Then this week he heard from a Cirrus pilot that there are CSIPs who TEACH this!:hairraise:

If that's the case, this guy, and anyone teaching to do it, should have their tickets pulled ala Martha lunken.
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That’s just dumb
 
tspear said:
Can you provide a link? I have never heard of a CSIP teaching this and would want to post about it in COPA.

Tim
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Here's the link to the podcast: https://aviationnewstalk.com/
Episode 188 is all about the crash, and the discussion about csips occurs in 189. I thought he mentioned being involved in a thread about it on copa.
 
Jim K said:
Max Trescott put forth a convincing theory on his podcast that the cirrus driver left seat passenger was flying the vfr pattern on AUTOPILOT.

Then this week he heard from a Cirrus pilot that there are CSIPs who TEACH this!:hairraise:

If that's the case, this guy, and anyone teaching to do it, should have their tickets pulled ala Martha lunken.
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You know, with the pattern entries drawn out on Foreflight, you could probably upload to the gps and have the autopilot fly the whole thing. But this didn't look like a standard pattern, so maybe he was using the heading bug. I tend to doubt he was using the autopilot though, too much work, easier to use the stick.
 
PaulS said:
You know, with the pattern entries drawn out on Foreflight, you could probably upload to the gps and have the autopilot fly the whole thing. But this didn't look like a standard pattern, so maybe he was using the heading bug. I tend to doubt he was using the autopilot though, too much work, easier to use the stick.
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The cirrus pilots I know would probably argue with that last statement.
 
flyingron said:
I can't understand flying the pattern at over double the stall speed. This isn't the case where you need to keep your speed up while on final to a major airport with a 767 breathing down your rear (I've regularly flown 160 Kt approaches into IAD but I knew how to slow down quickly when right at the runway).
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Not only double the stall speed, but on the 17R pattern that is almost exclusively for the student pilots in C172s and other slow aircraft (in comparison). If the occupants in the Cirrus were a CFI and student pilot (or being checked out in the Cirrus) both are at fault, particularly the CFI.

As another POI, I haven't heard a word out of the flight school about this event. Which makes me wonder if the occupants were the aircraft owner and a pax and not an instructional flight.
 
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Jim K said:
Here's the link to the podcast: https://aviationnewstalk.com/
Episode 188 is all about the crash, and the discussion about csips occurs in 189. I thought he mentioned being involved in a thread about it on copa.
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I have not followed the midair collision thread on COPA, and it has over 650 replies. Considering my schedule, I just provided the info you did and will try and read the COPA thread next week.
A quick search for the term CSIP, I did not find any references, but there were a lot of results since many posters were CSIPs and it shows up in their tag lines.

Tim
 
Salty said:
The cirrus pilots I know would probably argue with that last statement.
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In or near the pattern, I guess I should've added that, but I assumed it was implied since that is what we were talking about.
 
tspear said:
I have not followed the midair collision thread on COPA, and it has over 650 replies. Considering my schedule, I just provided the info you did and will try and read the COPA thread next week.
A quick search for the term CSIP, I did not find any references, but there were a lot of results since many posters were CSIPs and it shows up in their tag lines.

Tim
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I've read almost every post there, and I don't recall any one talking about a CSIP recommending that the AP be used in the pattern. I think a few may have questioned whether this pilot was using the autopilot in the pattern. Hopefully the data card was installed and working properly, I think perspective will track stuff like that.
 
Max speculated that he was using the heading bug. He did the math and the turn radius was consistent with a 15-18 degree bank at that speed, and probably too smooth to be hand flown, especially by someone who was that far behind the plane.
 
PaulS said:
I've read almost every post there, and I don't recall any one talking about a CSIP recommending that the AP be used in the pattern. I think a few may have questioned whether this pilot was using the autopilot in the pattern. Hopefully the data card was installed and working properly, I think perspective will track stuff like that.
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You were clear. That’s what I meant.
 
Jim K said:
Max speculated that he was using the heading bug. He did the math and the turn radius was consistent with a 15-18 degree bank at that speed, and probably too smooth to be hand flown, especially by someone who was that far behind the plane.
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I have yet to see data with such precision that anyone could make such a statement. ADS-B is on a 2-3 second cycle, and that I believe is the greatest granularity.

Tim
 
tspear said:
I have yet to see data with such precision that anyone could make such a statement. ADS-B is on a 2-3 second cycle, and that I believe is the greatest granularity.

Tim
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You can definitely tell the difference between an 18 degree bank turn and 30 or more which was what was needed at those speeds however.
 
Salty said:
You were clear. That’s what I meant.
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That's nuts then, Cirrus doesn't teach that. You are allowed to use the AP on approaches and can fly them coupled down to 200 feet, but VFR, you shouldn't do it.
 
PaulS said:
That's nuts then, Cirrus doesn't teach that. You are allowed to use the AP on approaches and can fly them coupled down to 200 feet, but VFR, you shouldn't do it.
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Why would you use the AP in the pattern?
 
PaulS said:
That's nuts then, Cirrus doesn't teach that. You are allowed to use the AP on approaches and can fly them coupled down to 200 feet, but VFR, you shouldn't do it.
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Yes, it is nuts.
 
denverpilot said:
You can definitely tell the difference between an 18 degree bank turn and 30 or more which was what was needed at those speeds however.
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Not disputing bank angle, just the assertion that the plane could not be hand flown because the flight path was too smooth and the pilot was behind the plane.
I have also flown with a pilot practicing ILS approaches where he became fixated on the attitude and was way behind on the glide slope and lateral aspects and refused to be more aggressive to correct a deteriorating condition.

Tim
 
tspear said:
Not disputing bank angle, just the assertion that the plane could not be hand flown because the flight path was too smooth and the pilot was behind the plane.
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You're disputing that the pilot, who flew more than 700' past the runway on base leg and crashed into the big green plane right in front of him, was behind the plane? I think "behind the plane" is, if anything, charitable.
 
If I were to teach someone how to fly a pattern using their autopilot, it would be very early on where I was showing them how to set ALT hold and moderate their airspeed with throttle position.

If this guy was taught to fly a pattern using autopilot (and I really hope that he was not), then he was taught badly. :D
 
murphey said:
The runways are staggered. Go look at the airport diagram chart. Come to KAPA and fly the patterns off both runways.
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Think he’s referring to staggering the arrivals and not the runways being staggered. Staggered arrivals to parallels is an IFR arrival function. During the turn on the controller has to have standard IFR radar sep (1000 or 3). After that there could be diagonal sep or some situations the aircraft could be abeam one another.

Doesn't apply in this case though because there isn’t a requirement to stagger. There isn’t radar sep for a VFR vs IFR in this airspace (class D) either.
 
iamtheari said:
KMIC Crystal is a similar runway setup, but probably only sees a fraction of the traffic that KAPA does and probably zero Metroliners. 14R/32L and 14L/32R have the same thresholds and their centerlines are 325 feet apart. I doubt there's a closer-spaced example of parallel runways to be found.
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Crystal's neighbor to the south (KFCM - Flying cloud) shows 500ft apart. However, the amount of traffic there is probably 10x that of KMIC and seems to have more big/fast planes in the mix. Many business jets up to Global Express. I thought it was weird learning there and having a Falcon or Citation X or Global express on 28L and little old me on 28R at the same time. Can't imagine it another 175ft closer!!!
 
tspear said:
Not disputing bank angle, just the assertion that the plane could not be hand flown because the flight path was too smooth and the pilot was behind the plane.
I have also flown with a pilot practicing ILS approaches where he became fixated on the attitude and was way behind on the glide slope and lateral aspects and refused to be more aggressive to correct a deteriorating condition.

Tim
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This was no ILS and was a standard super busy pattern VFR and VMC. Number one job at this airport is and had been for decades not to overshoot your centerline of your assigned runway while watching the traffic you called in sight and the traffic you were told to follow and a knowledged. End of story.
 
Lindberg said:
You're disputing that the pilot, who flew more than 700' past the runway on base leg and crashed into the big green plane right in front of him, was behind the plane? I think "behind the plane" is, if anything, charitable.
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My point is why do not have the data to make such an assessment. Based on what others have stated, Max Trescot and others are jumping to conclusions without evidence.
With a two mile base leg, the pilot could have been practicing a high speed approach with a nice long runway in anticipation of flying into a major airport.

There is not enough data to make almost any assertion except the Cirrus pilot effed up and hit the other plane.

Tim
 
denverpilot said:
This was no ILS and was a standard super busy pattern VFR and VMC. Number one job at this airport is and had been for decades not to overshoot your centerline of your assigned runway while watching the traffic you called in sight and the traffic you were told to follow and a knowledged. End of story.
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Nate,

I agree. I am stating that there is not enough data or evidence to support Max Trescott's apparent position that the plane was on A/P and the pilot was behind the plane.

Tim
 
tspear said:
With a two mile base leg, the pilot could have been practicing a high speed approach with a nice long runway in anticipation of flying into a major airport.
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He could have been. And that doesn't change the fact that he overshot and hit a big green plane right in front of him.
 
I've flown out of an airport where there might be gliders operating on the grass, planes operating on the runway (150' center to center), and helicopters operating on the parallel taxiway (400' away). That's close, but if you're where you're supposed to be, it's no problem.
 
Tarheelpilot said:
In the absence of medical incapacitation I can’t think of any scenario other than being task saturated and behind the plane.
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And medical incapacitation seems unlikely given the radio calls and subsequent red handle pull.
 
tspear said:
Nate,

I agree. I am stating that there is not enough data or evidence to support Max Trescott's apparent position that the plane was on A/P and the pilot was behind the plane.

Tim
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How many times have we seen here... if it walks like a duck...?

Max has a lot of time in Cirri. He knows all the bad habits.

There's little reason other than use of the AP for a low bank, high radius turn at that point of the flight. Especially with the aircraft being a local.

Pedantic or not, proven or not, it's the most likely reason.
 
denverpilot said:
How many times have we seen here... if it walks like a duck...?

Max has a lot of time in Cirri. He knows all the bad habits.

There's little reason other than use of the AP for a low bank, high radius turn at that point of the flight. Especially with the aircraft being a local.

Pedantic or not, proven or not, it's the most likely reason.
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Using the AP in the pattern in our type of planes is utter lunacy.
 
My opinion is not that he used AP for the turn in the pattern, but that he was using it as he came into the pattern and was behind the airplane mentally. I’m guessing he had no idea how fast he was going.
 
denverpilot said:
There's little reason other than use of the AP for a low bank, high radius turn at that point of the flight.
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I have heard many, many times that some pilots adhere to a mantra of “No more than x° of bank in the pattern”. 20° or 30° seem to be the most common self-imposed limits. I think Capt. Thorpe was hinting at that above. I’ve often thought that was poor advice and could easily lead to dangerous skidded turns. But of course it also limits the radius of turn for any given airspeed.

I can’t think of any way to discern if a “low bank, high radius turn” was due to pilot or autopilot limitations. Other than asking the pilot, of course. Which fortunately, in this case we can do.
 
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