Mid air Crash at Johnson Creek Video.

TangoWhiskey said:
Just as with chair flying emergencies in advance so we are ready to react, this "monitoring and advising via handheld if we see something bad unfolding" should be thought through... This group of people on PoA is a great place for that to happen.

So, considering that by the time you realize a collision is imminent and your voice on the radio MIGHT help prevent it, what exactly would you say, in what tone, to get the attention of the pilot(s) that need to take action, to increase their separation, and prevent the collision?

Imagine you were in the Arrow here. What EXACTLY would you need to hear over the radio to make you IMMEDIATELY realize that you need to STOP WHAT YOU ARE DOING, arrest the descent, turn left or right, or whatever needs to be done to prevent the collision?

Now, remember that you don't always listen to every call on the radio... So you might not KNOW the type or call signs of the conflicting aircraft when you make your call. What if both pilots pull up or away?
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And if they both pull up and hit each other, is it your fault?

I never say anything about other planes in the pattern unless there is a NORDO that I have in sight, then I will give other traffic its location. That can help prevent possible issues. Last time I did it was to inform the Citation on 3 mile final about the cub on a tight base.
 
And if more than one person jumps on their handhelds to advise of the issue at that critical moment, all anybody gets is a distracting and annoying SQUEAAAAAAAAL.
 
AdamZ said:
...I don't know the field and Bob would certainly know the answer to this but if I recall from his videos the approach is not a traditional pattern but rather you fly down a valley ( essentially a base leg) then turn left down another valley ( essentially on final) to reveal the runway. Which ironically would I think give the arrow pilot a longer time to see the Tri Pacer as its essentially an extended final...
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No, coming from the south it's a standard pattern. You have to hug the side of the mountain on downwind and it's a very short base leg.
 
Silvaire said:
No, coming from the south it's a standard pattern. You have to hug the side of the mountain on downwind and it's a very short base leg.
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Which Idaho mountain strip is it that has the significant ridge between downwind and the runway?
 
TangoWhiskey said:
And if more than one person jumps on their handhelds to advise of the issue at that critical moment, all anybody gets is a distracting and annoying SQUEAAAAAAAAL.
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Maybe.

About the only thing one could say is, "CAUTION, Two aircraft on final, low wing is overtaking, Johnson Creek." in your best "pay attention or someone's going to get hurt" voice, and hope for the best.

I'm not even sure that it would have looked like anything bad enough was about to happen that I'd have said it, looking at the video again. And "commands" from the ground may have just been as dangerous as the accident itself.

As someone else already pointed out, both aircraft weren't on the same freq anyway. Always that possibility or a NORDO at an uncontrolled field.
 
TangoWhiskey said:
Which Idaho mountain strip is it that has the significant ridge between downwind and the runway?
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That is probably Big Creek it has a hog back ridge between the runway and the Creek itself. You can't see 19 until you go base to final on a standard approach into Big Creek.
 
A hand held wouldn't have solved this problem as someone reported one of the accident planes had their radio on 123.9 instead of 122.9.

In this video of mine landing at Johnson creek I had given my down wind early. But if you listen to the pilot of the plane that was taking off he said he was taking off on 17 and headed to Yellow Pine. On a grass runway the numbers are easy to get mixed up. He was departing on 35.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZjONA7HyL-w
 
Bob Bement said:
But if you listen to the pilot of the plane that was taking off he said he was taking off on 17 and headed to Yellow Pine. On a grass runway the numbers are easy to get mixed up. He was departing on 35.

Does grass cause magnetic anomalies? ;)

(Yes I know mountains do sometimes. I'm joking with you about the assertion it's because of grass. ;) )
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tmyers said:
Wow, must be nice to be the perfect pilot!
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I wouldn't know -- I'm not perfect, but I'm not stupid, either. And accidents like this are the result of STUPIDITY.

Anyone who thinks that there is a fine line between safe flying and mid-air collisions isn't someone I want to share airspace with.

If you don't want to fly near me it only affects where you can fly. I am still free to fly where I want.
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The last time someone said something like that to me, she finished it up by saying "so THERE!" and sticking her tongue out at me.
 
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Note to self:

1. NEVER fly a plane without a radio and my Surecheck TPAS, ever.
2. NEVER land ANYWHERE without announcing my every position in the pattern.
3. Hope to God the right people hear me.
4. See & avoid like hell.
 
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Another reason to avoid fly ins with their concentration of incompetent and nearly incompetent pilots.
 
KA550 said:
Another reason to avoid fly ins with their concentration of incompetent and nearly incompetent pilots.
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There are gatherings and fly-ins at Johnson Creek all the time during the summer season. Just about every fair weathered weekend will see a relative crowd there. This mid-air collision occurred 52 days ago yet, in all that time, not a single other mishap has occurred. Furthermore, the last itme a mid-air collision occurred at Johnson Creek was...well, has there EVER been one before?

We need some context here, let's not go off the deep end :nono:
 
Silvaire said:
There are gatherings and fly-ins at Johnson Creek all the time during the summer season. Just about every fair weathered weekend will see a relative crowd there. This mid-air collision occurred 52 days ago yet, in all that time, not a single other mishap has occurred. Furthermore, the last itme a mid-air collision occurred at Johnson Creek was...well, has there EVER been one before?

We need some context here, let's not go off the deep end :nono:
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For each airport in the AOPA Airports web page there is a "Accident Reports" link (under the Air Safety Institute Resources section) that lists accidents from the NTSB database that were associated with that airport's ID. Not all such accidents actually involve the airport because it may be the closest to the accident. This is the list it produces for 3U2; the only midair there is the one under discussion in this thread:

http://www.aopa.org/asf/ntsb/searchResults.cfm?identifier=3U2&helicopter=BOTH
 
KA550 said:
Another reason to avoid fly ins with their concentration of incompetent and nearly incompetent pilots.
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I don't know how you can generalize like that. I know some really good pilots that land at Johnson creek. This is the only mid air crash I know of at Johnson Creek airport.
 
KA550 said:
Another reason to avoid fly ins with their concentration of incompetent and nearly incompetent pilots.
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Yeah, and I only drive my car at 2AM and pull over of there are any other vehicles present. :rollseyes:
 
Perhaps another takeaway from this is when landing at an uncontrolled field like this (or doing a low pass), it might be wise to momentarily alter heading slightly on final to give you a clear view of final between you and the runway.

In the end, this was a relatively rare, tragic event....thankfully.
 
A good pilot always does everything they can to avoid situations like this and there are times when even that is not enough.
 
KA550 said:
Another reason to avoid fly ins with their concentration of incompetent and nearly incompetent pilots.
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And they say the Red Board is bad...:rolleyes: I am curious though, you imply there is more than one reason to avoid a fly in. What are the other reasons?
 
Dav8or said:
And they say the Red Board is bad...:rolleyes: I am curious though, you imply there is more than one reason to avoid a fly in. What are the other reasons?
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Well, the main reason to avoid fly-ins at backcountry airports???? Because there are too got-damned many people there???

I go to the backcountry to get away from people, not to see other people. I am lucky enough to live 50 minutes from Johnson Creek, I would never fly in there when there is a fly-in there, nor would I visit Yellow Pine during the Harmonica Festival. There are plenty of other weeks in the year to enjoy Johnson Creek, plenty of other weeks in the year to enjoy Yellow Pine.

All that being said, tragic accident, and tragic loss of the little kid. Sucks.
 
JoseCuervo said:
...I go to the backcountry to get away from people, not to see other people....
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Heck you don't need to fly up into the mountains to get away from people, just land at any little podunk general aviation field on a weekday and chances are very slim that you're gonna see anybody else there.

Nothing wrong with meeting up with other flyers at a nice back country strip to socialize, have a BBQ and talk flying over a few IPAs. You're still getting away from the rat race. I've had great times up at Johnson Creek on several occasions, don't think it would have been near as much fun if the place had been deserted.
 
I almost got into head on collision at TJMZ. As I was approaching final for RW9 another plane called on the radio saying he was on short final. I assumed he was ahead of me but right after I got a voice warning from the Traffic Watch pointing for traffic 2nm ahead 400ft below. I look out and didn't see the traffic and then realized he was on final on the opposite runway end. I side step to down wind and landed behind him. This is the second time this happens to me.

Some pilots do not say on what runway they are landing in particular on grass strips since there is no numbers, beware of this. Glad I had a TAS, it saved my butt. For $800 is worth it

José
 

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I had a coaching friend that always said that is why there is Chocolate, Strawberry, and Vanilla Ice cream. Not everyone likes the same thing. Just because someone likes the back country fly-in doesn't mean everyone has to like them and vise-versa. Some like company in the back country some don't. But don't try to change someone to your way of thinking because we don't all have the same likes and dislikes.
 
Does anyone have a current link the to video mentioned in this post?
 
I am looking for the link as well, one of the pilots in the crash is looking for the video. His wife chatted me on Facebook looking for the video I guess there are two videos and she is looking for one that is closer to the crash scene.
 
Bob Bement said:
I am looking for the link as well, one of the pilots in the crash is looking for the video. His wife chatted me on Facebook looking for the video I guess there are two videos and she is looking for one that is closer to the crash scene.
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One was pulled down by the person who put it up on Facebook, I think to cover for the flight instructor of the Arrow pilot.. I didn't know there was a second one...:idea:

My guess is the NTSB has copies of both videos, but it probably will take a FOIA to get them...
 
dell30rb said:
No doubt this is one of the classic set-ups for a mid-air.

A slip on final will take care of this blind spot.

As for the difference in speed on final, the Tri-Pacer is a super draggy, light fabric covered airplane, and the Arrow a heavier metal plane. The arrow could have been a little fast at 75kts or so and the tri pacer around 50kts
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A tripacer is nothing more than a pacer with a nose gear. It is referred to as a short wing piper ( verses a long wing cub) this makes it anything but "draggy" and one had better not be doing 50 on final, especially if it carried a good bit of fuel and passengers. 65 would be more like it. It's hard to understand why, if a crowd like this assembles, there isn't a published freq. that everyone adheres to For this particular location or any other. I stay far away from events like this due to the "see and avoid , I don't need no radio " types. It's why many insurance company's don't cover fly ins. Read the fine print.
 
Jimmy cooper said:
A tripacer is nothing more than a pacer with a nose gear. It is referred to as a short wing piper ( verses a long wing cub) this makes it anything but "draggy" and one had better not be doing 50 on final, especially if it carried a good bit of fuel and passengers. 65 would be more like it. It's hard to understand why, if a crowd like this assembles, there isn't a published freq. that everyone adheres to For this particular location or any other. I stay far away from events like this due to the "see and avoid , I don't need no radio " types. It's why many insurance company's don't cover fly ins. Read the fine print.
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Post a policy that doesn't cover the aircraft when flying into a fly-in.

I think you're making that one up.

Let's see it.
 
Jimmy cooper said:
...I don't need no radio " types...
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what "type" is that, exactly? people who are looking out the window for traffic instead of staring at a big screen TV in the panel ?

at any rate I guess you'll get along with me just fine, since my pawnee has a CB radio for coms. Granted it's only a 19 channel but I have aspirations to upgrade to a 40 someday.
 
Bob Bement said:
I am looking for the link as well, one of the pilots in the crash is looking for the video. His wife chatted me on Facebook looking for the video I guess there are two videos and she is looking for one that is closer to the crash scene.
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I'm sure those videos are off line for legal reasons. I'm sure there is a lawsuit in progress. They will try to keep the videos private until after the case is settled. I think there are ways to dig them up, because there are sites that archive everything that goes on the web and you can go back in time before the videos got pulled down and get them. I've never done it, so I don't know how, but I have seen others do it over the years.

I remember the video pretty well. I really can't see how "blame" could be placed. It was a classic example of how "see and avoid" fails and is really a pretty crappy collision avoidance scheme. This crash could have been way worse than it was.
 
Looks like that airstrip is prone to mishaps -

"The airport has been the site of numerous crashes, including accidents in 1996, 2000, 2002, 2003, 2005, 2007 and 2010, according to a review of National Transportation Safety Board records documenting mishaps at the field."
 
JHW said:
what "type" is that, exactly? people who are looking out the window for traffic instead of staring at a big screen TV in the panel ?
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I must be extra talented. I can use a radio and look out the window at the same time.

But even though I'm looking out the window, it doesn't guarantee I'll see all the traffic around me. Perhaps more importantly, it certainly doesn't guarantee the other guy sees me.

Isn't the crash in question a classic example of blind-spot convergence? Low-wing plane coming down on top of a high-wing? See-and-avoid doesn't do any good when there's nothing in the field of view to be seen.
 
Jim_R said:
I must be extra talented. I can use a radio and look out the window at the same time.

But even though I'm looking out the window, it doesn't guarantee I'll see all the traffic around me. Perhaps more importantly, it certainly doesn't guarantee the other guy sees me.

Isn't the crash in question a classic example of blind-spot convergence? Low-wing plane coming down on top of a high-wing? See-and-avoid doesn't do any good when there's nothing in the field of view to be seen.
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The crash was discussed for a while on another forum and IIRC, the majority concluded the overtaking Arrow was doing a high speed, low pass at the strip... Seems there are numerous pics of the wreckage that show the gear was retracted on the Arrow.. :dunno:..

Maybe the NTSB will show that in the factual report....
 
Piloto said:
I almost got into head on collision at TJMZ. As I was approaching final for RW9 another plane called on the radio saying he was on short final. I assumed he was ahead of me but right after I got a voice warning from the Traffic Watch pointing for traffic 2nm ahead 400ft below. I look out and didn't see the traffic and then realized he was on final on the opposite runway end. I side step to down wind and landed behind him. This is the second time this happens to me.

Some pilots do not say on what runway they are landing in particular on grass strips since there is no numbers, beware of this. Glad I had a TAS, it saved my butt. For $800 is worth it

José
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TAS will NOT show you my Taylorcraft, or my buddies Cub, etc... that don't have transponders. For that matter, the Cardinal that I regularly ride in had a nearly complete electrical failure a couple of months back and our transponder wasn't transmitting in that aircraft either and we got a call after we'd landed about whether or not we were OK as radar had totally lost us a couple of miles out from the airport.
Aircraft DO have blind spots, but the biggest blind spot is when a pilot's brain rules out various possibilities and stops seeing the obvious. An aircraft can be bright white or yellow and clearly visible when that happens.
 
A very similar thing happened when NASCAR fame car owner, Jack Roush crashed his jet at OSH in front of hundreds of witnesses... In less then 24 hours ,he /his legal team was able to seize/ shut down/ pay off probably a dozen people who had video'ed the crash .......just to get it out of public view.... All it takes is MONEY...:(.....;)
 
Jim_R said:
Isn't the crash in question a classic example of blind-spot convergence? Low-wing plane coming down on top of a high-wing? See-and-avoid doesn't do any good when there's nothing in the field of view to be seen.
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No, it's not. It's a classic example of "hold my beer and watch this" as some cowboy does a low pass in the midst of landing and departing traffic.

NORDO traffic is common and, big picture, not a safety problem. The vast majority of mid-aire occorr between airplanes both equipped with radios. many of them also while talking to a control tower.
 
denverpilot said:
Post a policy that doesn't cover the aircraft when flying into a fly-in.

I think you're making that one up.

Let's see it.
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I can do better than that. Call Avemco and ask them about it. They won't be making up. You sound like hockey's brother.
 
JHW said:
No, it's not. It's a classic example of "hold my beer and watch this" as some cowboy does a low pass in the midst of landing and departing traffic.

NORDO traffic is common and, big picture, not a safety problem. The vast majority of mid-aire occorr between airplanes both equipped with radios. many of them also while talking to a control tower.
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If that's true then airlines are just using radios for the fun of it....right? I would sure like to see where you conjured up that info.
 
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