Mid air Crash at Johnson Creek Video.

Someone needs to help me here. What I see is a total lack of situational awareness from the pilot in the Arrow. It looks to me that both planes were following the same pattern thought he arrow seemed a high in comparison to the tripacer, but the tripacer was always in front of the arrow far enough that the low wing blind spot should not have made any difference. Do not know what radio communication there was but even if there was no communication, I still do not know how he missed to tripacer. Well I do actually, as I have seen many times it is more difficult to see a plane directly in front of you than you would expect. However, with the distance between the two I would have suspect the arrow to have seen him long before he knocked him out of the sky.

In any event sad scary video and worse so because of the fatality.
 
Thats rough to watch!!! The Arrow pilot should have seen the Tri-Pacer turn final while the Arrow was on the base leg, but once the Arrow was on final the Tri-Pacer would have been completely in the Arrows blind spot. There is nothing like taking a good hard look both left and right before making that turn to final.

Very Sad.
 
That Arrow had a lot of speed, given the tail-dragger that had just buzzed the runway, I wonder whether they were planning to land at all or whether this was supposed to be a low-pass as well.
 
That is a possible explanation, I would agree that it overtook the Tri-Pacer pretty quickly.
 
tmyers said:
That is a possible explanation, I would agree that it overtook the Tri-Pacer pretty quickly.
Click to expand...

I looked at the prelim report, it didn't comment on whether the Arrows gear was found down and locked.
 
Sad to watch.........:sad::sad:

Clearly the Arrow was not flying his plane properly and failed to maintain proper spacing.....
 
As hard as that was to watch, sometimes things can be negligent, and sometimes they are just accidents. I don't know what this is, but I will say this. Its not always cut and dry. If you fly long enough things will happen, you will see close calls. Most have those stories of "that one time!" It can be difficult at best to spot other aircraft even when you know they are there. Maybe its directly head away and blending into the terrain...
I would like to think that we can do better and all accidents are preventable but...??
 
tmyers said:
Thats rough to watch!!! The Arrow pilot should have seen the Tri-Pacer turn final while the Arrow was on the base leg, but once the Arrow was on final the Tri-Pacer would have been completely in the Arrows blind spot. There is nothing like taking a good hard look both left and right before making that turn to final.

Very Sad.
Click to expand...

No doubt this is one of the classic set-ups for a mid-air.

A slip on final will take care of this blind spot.

As for the difference in speed on final, the Tri-Pacer is a super draggy, light fabric covered airplane, and the Arrow a heavier metal plane. The arrow could have been a little fast at 75kts or so and the tri pacer around 50kts
 
Last edited:
If I were to make a wild guess I'd say that the guy in the Arrow thought the first plane that did the fly-by was the Tri-Pacer.
 
A few things to consider. This was the Arrow pilot's first trip to JC and IIRC, he did not have much mountain strip experience. Everyone was using a standard left pattern. I'm guessing that he spent too much time looking at the strip on downwind and never saw the PA22(he was already too close on base). Once on final, the PA22 was in his blind spot.

Also keep in mind that the sole fatality was the Arrow pilot's two year old son. Please consider this in your remarks. He will carry the punishment for any mistakes for the rest of his life...
 
dell30rb said:
No doubt this is one of the classic set-ups for a mid-air.

A slip on final will take care of this blind spot.

As for the difference in speed on final, the Tri-Pacer is a super draggy, light fabric covered airplane,
Click to expand...

You could slip steeply right onto another airplane, too.

The Tri-Pacer isn't a draggy airplane. The guys that own them say they will take off quicker, climb faster, cruise faster and carry more than a 172, and on the same horsepower. I have flown one and find it to perform far better than it looks.

Dan
 
So far the comments have been pretty factual and hopefully they will stay that way. There is only a hairs width of separation from this happening to any of us here. And as you stated, the pilot could have easily been focusing on the strip and simply missed the aircraft in front of him.

I cannot imagine what my thoughts would be if it were my child that had been lost in an accident like this. I would think very haunting.
 
tmyers said:
I cannot imagine what my thoughts would be if it were my child that had been lost in an accident like this. I would think very haunting.
Click to expand...
Agreed Tim, I cannot wrap my head around how any father could deal with that...
 
Silvaire said:
If I were to make a wild guess I'd say that the guy in the Arrow thought the first plane that did the fly-by was the Tri-Pacer.
Click to expand...

Looks that way to me too. It looks like everyone was setting up for low passes for the friends and the guy with the camera. I'm assuming there were radio calls and it's likely the Arrow looked out his window saw the red and white Pacer (?) and thought he was following that guy. Completely un aware that the guy making the calls and whom he thought he was following, was really much closer and lower.

A case of mistaken identity.

Whenever there is a crash, pilots like to work hard to lay blame on another pilot. That way they can pat themselves on the back and tell themselves that the crash pilot was sub standard and that the mistake made would never happen to them, therefore their version of GA flying is perfectly safe. It's just lying to yourself. This accident could have happened to any pilot reading this thread, myself included.

The take away here is a change in radio communications. (assuming there were any) We all need to adopt the EAA Airventure style of identifying airplanes in the pattern. Your tail number is worthless, the color of your plane can be very useful. So, something like- "Johnson Creek traffic, red and white Tri Pacer turning final, Johnson Creek."

I am completely one of the ones that needs to make this change. I was not taught this technique and I was trained in a class C airport under Bravo so ATC was a part of every flight. In addition, I flew IFR exclusively for many years. The habit of identifying yourself with the last three of the N number is natural and hard to break, but again, this information is worthless in the untowered traffic pattern. I really need to get used to the sound of myself saying, "Byron traffic, yellow and green Mooney..."
 
They were having a Back country Pilots forum fly-in on this particular weekend. There were something like 70 aircraft that showed up. The Arrow pilot had been in to Johnson Creek one time with someone else. His first time in as pilot. I wonder about the radio transmissions that took place. But we will never know that I guess. I only hope some good comes out of this.
 
Since these fly-ins have the potential to have many aircraft converging on each other at the same time maybe a handheld radio on on the ground would be in order. It wouldn't help the NORAD's, but if someone on the ground just had a handheld to relay pertinent information to those landing it could be a great help. I have on several occasions let two aircraft know that they are landing toward each other while I was completing a runup and waiting to take the runway.
 
flyingmoose said:
As hard as that was to watch, sometimes things can be negligent, and sometimes they are just accidents. I don't know what this is, but I will say this. Its not always cut and dry. If you fly long enough things will happen, you will see close calls. Most have those stories of "that one time!" It can be difficult at best to spot other aircraft even when you know they are there. Maybe its directly head away and blending into the terrain...
I would like to think that we can do better and all accidents are preventable but...??
Click to expand...

:yeahthat:
 
tmyers said:
Since these fly-ins have the potential to have many aircraft converging on each other at the same time maybe a handheld radio on on the ground would be in order...
Click to expand...

Perhaps in some cases but from the perspective of where this video was shot it wasn't obvious that this was about to happen. Even if we had the radio transcript it's most likely that everyone thought they knew where everyone else was. As I said before, it's very possible that the Arrow thought the first airplane was the Tri-Pacer and didn't actually see the Tri-Pacer because it's very common, when you have traffic in sight, to keep your eyes on it so as not to lose track of it. If he was convinced that was his traffic he wouldn't have been scanning intently in other areas and it's quite possible that the Tri-Pacer wasn't visible at all - at least on final.
 
Bob Bement said:
I wonder about the radio transmissions that took place. But we will never know that I guess. I only hope some good comes out of this.
Click to expand...

Well, we might know about this. There are pilot survivors from both airplanes and there were plenty of other aircraft in the area with the CTAF on I would guess. The NTSB will be asking these questions and it will likely show up in their report.
 
tmyers said:
Since these fly-ins have the potential to have many aircraft converging on each other at the same time maybe a handheld radio on on the ground would be in order. It wouldn't help the NORAD's, but if someone on the ground just had a handheld to relay pertinent information to those landing it could be a great help. I have on several occasions let two aircraft know that they are landing toward each other while I was completing a runup and waiting to take the runway.
Click to expand...

I agree. It would be nice if folks organizing these sorts of things could show up early with a hand held and monitor things. I wouldn't go so far as to tell people that is what you're going to do, or try to play ATC, because that sets you up for all kinds of liability and you could create a problem that otherwise wouldn't happen. Show up early and discretely monitor. Only if something crazy is about to happen do you broadcast. I think this would be helpful.
 
Dav8or said:
I agree. It would be nice if folks organizing these sorts of things could show up early with a hand held and monitor things. I wouldn't go so far as to tell people that is what you're going to do, or try to play ATC, because that sets you up for all kinds of liability and you could create a problem that otherwise wouldn't happen. Show up early and discretely monitor. Only if something crazy is about to happen do you broadcast. I think this would be helpful.
Click to expand...

Always amazes me that people just stand around. Look how long it takes for the spectators to react. :mad2:

Since there is no red lights flashing yet there is no emergency. :mad2:
 
tmyers said:
Since these fly-ins have the potential to have many aircraft converging on each other at the same time maybe a handheld radio on on the ground would be in order. It wouldn't help the NORAD's, but if someone on the ground just had a handheld to relay pertinent information to those landing it could be a great help. I have on several occasions let two aircraft know that they are landing toward each other while I was completing a runup and waiting to take the runway.
Click to expand...

I have flown into the POA fly-in at Gastons twice and both times there has been a hand held in use. I agree one would have been good here.
 
Geico266 said:
Always amazes me that people just stand around. Look how long it takes for the spectators to react. :mad2:

Since there is no red lights flashing yet there is no emergency. :mad2:
Click to expand...

May not have been watching, or heard the planes. At Gaston's I've heard a radio call, but never hear them unless doing a low pass. Only finally hear the engine when they are almost to you.
 
Geico266 said:
Always amazes me that people just stand around. Look how long it takes for the spectators to react. :mad2:

Since there is no red lights flashing yet there is no emergency. :mad2:
Click to expand...

I think it understandable. It's called shock. You just witnessed a horrible tragedy unfold in front of your eyes that you in no way expected. It must be surreal and there must also be a certain amount of disbelief that it actually happened. It's easy for us watching the video to react. It's not real and we know there is about to be a terrible crash. Not everybody is a hero. Some are, some aren't.
 
Dav8or said:
The take away here is a change in radio communications. (assuming there were any) We all need to adopt the EAA Airventure style of identifying airplanes in the pattern. Your tail number is worthless, the color of your plane can be very useful. So, something like- "Johnson Creek traffic, red and white Tri Pacer turning final, Johnson Creek."
Click to expand...

I've been doing that for years. I'm "Cessna Seven Niner Mike, Red and White Skylane", at uncontrolled airports or practice areas. Not sure where I picked it up, but tail numbers are useless for spotting other aircraft. They are useful if there's two Skylanes or the person has a similar voice to the last guy, so I mix it.
 
Bob Bement said:
I have flown into the POA fly-in at Gastons twice and both times there has been a hand held in use. I agree one would have been good here.
Click to expand...

Probably a better investment than a video camera, eh?

I wanted so bad to hear someone in the background key up a radio and tell the Arrow to go around...
 
denverpilot said:
Probably a better investment than a video camera, eh?

I wanted so bad to hear someone in the background key up a radio and tell the Arrow to go around...
Click to expand...

I told someone I wish I had been landing with my camera going as all other radio talk comes in over my intercom and goes into my camera. I would of liked to know what was said or what wasn't said.
 
I forgot to mention that I had talked with the group from Roseburg, OR. ( the pilot in the Tri-Pacer) At Sulphur Creek Lodge the day before and they said they were camped at Johnson Creek. There was a Cessna 170 with him also.
 
Yow - I read a couple of posts before I saw the video, so I knew what was going to happen.

I saw the first plane do a low-pass, and could see the other two planes on base and the base-turn-to-final in the background. Then the camera swung back and I watched it unfold.

I know those two aircraft fly at different speeds, but that Arrow sure seemed to catch that Tri-Pacer in a hurry.

I sure wish someone would have just jumped on the radio and said something.

There are a lot of questions.
 
Dav8or said:
Well, we might know about this. There are pilot survivors from both airplanes and there were plenty of other aircraft in the area with the CTAF on I would guess. The NTSB will be asking these questions and it will likely show up in their report.
Click to expand...

Since the closeure rate between both planes was VERY high, my guess is the Arrow was setting up for a high speed, low pass and didnt even see the Tri Pacer........ As for the radio traffic,, it would not have done any good as one of those planes was tuned into 123.9....NOT 122.9...The NTSB has a pretty good handle on how this played out.:yes::sad::sad:

Wait for the Factual /Final report.. :yes:
 
tmyers said:
There is only a hairs width of separation from this happening to any of us here.
Click to expand...

Remind me not to fly anywhere that you're flying.

I keep this from happening to me by NOT being only a hair's width of separation from this kind of thing. I've left the pattern when guys haven't had me in sight on a busy day, rather than take the chance of this sort of thing.
 
Dan Thomas said:
You could slip steeply right onto another airplane, too.

The Tri-Pacer isn't a draggy airplane. The guys that own them say they will take off quicker, climb faster, cruise faster and carry more than a 172, and on the same horsepower. I have flown one and find it to perform far better than it looks.

Dan
Click to expand...

Couldn't perform worse.

I got that video in my email feed this morning calling it a Baron hitting an PA-22.
 
SoloEqs said:
Remind me not to fly anywhere that you're flying.

I keep this from happening to me by NOT being only a hair's width of separation from this kind of thing. I've left the pattern when guys haven't had me in sight on a busy day, rather than take the chance of this sort of thing.
Click to expand...

Wow, must be nice to be the perfect pilot!

Trying to point out that it is pretty easy to miss a frequency by .1 or divert your attention away from something you need to see. None of us are perfect and the knowledge of how easy it would be to turn a simple error into a fatal one is what pushes us all to employ more diligent safeguards in our day to day flying.

If you don't want to fly near me it only affects where you can fly. I am still free to fly where I want.
 
What about a TAS system. I installed on and really like it. Being I have a wooden airframe I am having issue's with a handheld radio.
This seems to keep me on the look out. Comes over my headset and tells me of traffic before I ever see it.
Just an idea, I know what I fly is nothing like any of you fly but I just wanted to chime in.
As for running to the spot as its happening. I do not believe I would do this either. No idea where the pieces are going, wait until all settles then run. You are of no use to anyone if you get hurt running to help.
 
Dav8or said:
I think it understandable. It's called shock. You just witnessed a horrible tragedy unfold in front of your eyes that you in no way expected. It must be surreal and there must also be a certain amount of disbelief that it actually happened. It's easy for us watching the video to react. It's not real and we know there is about to be a terrible crash. Not everybody is a hero. Some are, some aren't.
Click to expand...

And sound takes time to travel. Looks to me like the spectators were talking amongst themselves... They may not have been watching final. By the time they HEAR the crash, look up, then react, the timing seems about right. Just like engine failure after takeoff, there is a moment of disbelief before action.
 
Matthew said:
I sure wish someone would have just jumped on the radio and said something.
Click to expand...

Just as with chair flying emergencies in advance so we are ready to react, this "monitoring and advising via handheld if we see something bad unfolding" should be thought through... This group of people on PoA is a great place for that to happen.

So, considering that by the time you realize a collision is imminent and your voice on the radio MIGHT help prevent it, what exactly would you say, in what tone, to get the attention of the pilot(s) that need to take action, to increase their separation, and prevent the collision?

Imagine you were in the Arrow here. What EXACTLY would you need to hear over the radio to make you IMMEDIATELY realize that you need to STOP WHAT YOU ARE DOING, arrest the descent, turn left or right, or whatever needs to be done to prevent the collision?

Now, remember that you don't always listen to every call on the radio... So you might not KNOW the type or call signs of the conflicting aircraft when you make your call. What if both pilots pull up or away?
 
First this is certainly a tragedy! Very sad, I think we all feel the pain a bit.

tmyers said:
Thats rough to watch!!! The Arrow pilot should have seen the Tri-Pacer turn final while the Arrow was on the base leg, but once the Arrow was on final the Tri-Pacer would have been completely in the Arrows blind spot. There is nothing like taking a good hard look both left and right before making that turn to final.

Very Sad.
Click to expand...

Tim, I don't know the field and Bob would certainly know the answer to this but if I recall from his videos the approach is not a traditional pattern but rather you fly down a valley ( essentially a base leg) then turn left down another valley ( essentially on final) to reveal the runway. Which ironically would I think give the arrow pilot a longer time to see the Tri Pacer as its essentially an extended final. Bob please correct me if I'm wrong on this as I could be confusing your videos. If incorrect then disregard this paragraph.

Silvaire said:
If I were to make a wild guess I'd say that the guy in the Arrow thought the first plane that did the fly-by was the Tri-Pacer.
Click to expand...

Very possible, I recall once in training calling Bonanza in site ( V-Tail) on final. Only thing it was the FIRST V-Tail on final not the second that was being called. It was a good post flight lesson for my CFI and I.

Papa Foxtrot said:
A few things to consider. This was the Arrow pilot's first trip to JC and IIRC, he did not have much mountain strip experience. Everyone was using a standard left pattern. I'm guessing that he spent too much time looking at the strip on downwind and never saw the PA22(he was already too close on base). Once on final, the PA22 was in his blind spot.

Also keep in mind that the sole fatality was the Arrow pilot's two year old son. Please consider this in your remarks. He will carry the punishment for any mistakes for the rest of his life...
Click to expand...

Ain't that the truth ( last sentence) I cannot imagine that burden!

Dav8or said:
I agree. It would be nice if folks organizing these sorts of things could show up early with a hand held and monitor things. I wouldn't go so far as to tell people that is what you're going to do, or try to play ATC, because that sets you up for all kinds of liability and you could create a problem that otherwise wouldn't happen. Show up early and discretely monitor. Only if something crazy is about to happen do you broadcast. I think this would be helpful.
Click to expand...

Along those lines, I think its prudent to have a transceiver on the ground but one has to be very careful to NOT act as ATC but rather be there to provide emergency warnings. You also need to be careful not to assume liability by insinuating or holding yourself or your group out to be providing any type of separation services.

SoloEqs said:
Remind me not to fly anywhere that you're flying.

I keep this from happening to me by NOT being only a hair's width of separation from this kind of thing. I've left the pattern when guys haven't had me in sight on a busy day, rather than take the chance of this sort of thing.
Click to expand...

How might you do that in a NORDO situation where you can't see what is behind you? You might be able to control what you do but not the other guy? I've heard pilots call the wrong runway AND the wrong airport. If your flying at KABC are you going to go around if the other guy on short final at your airport calls out short final on KXYZ?

Again this is so very sad.
 
TangoWhiskey said:
Just as with chair flying emergencies in advance so we are ready to react, this "monitoring and advising via handheld if we see something bad unfolding" should be thought through... This group of people on PoA is a great place for that to happen.

So, considering that by the time you realize a collision is imminent and your voice on the radio MIGHT help prevent it, what exactly would you say, in what tone, to get the attention of the pilot(s) that need to take action, to increase their separation, and prevent the collision?

Imagine you were in the Arrow here. What EXACTLY would you need to hear over the radio to make you IMMEDIATELY realize that you need to STOP WHAT YOU ARE DOING, arrest the descent, turn left or right, or whatever needs to be done to prevent the collision?

Now, remember that you don't always listen to every call on the radio... So you might not KNOW the type or call signs of the conflicting aircraft when you make your call. What if both pilots pull up or away?
Click to expand...

Yeah- it's easy to look back and say "I would have done this...". Knowing in advance what was about to happen I really WAS hoping someone would have said something.

But, in reality - what would you say? Once you realize what's about to happen, you have just a couple of seconds to grab a handheld and get off one sentence. Tell the Tri-Pacer to go around and he may climb up into the Arrow. Tell the Arrow to go around and he may look around and wonder what the fuss is all about and descend into the Tri-Pacer anyway. Probably none of us would have thought - "Hmmm - I bet that Arrow on base doesn't see that Tri-Pacer on final. I think I better tell him about it." We are all PIC at one time or another, and we have to let others be PIC when it's their turn. Sometime we screw up, sometimes others do.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top