Mid-air at KSDM

Walboy said:
THIS is the main reason I chose to comply with ADS-B In/Out now rather than later; traffic awareness. I can almost always see traffic on my display before seeing it with my eyeballs. I always see traffic on the display BEFORE ATC calls it out. I know exactly where to look. I have been in busy SOCAL airspace with heavy freq congestion where there sometimes simply is no opportunity for ATC to even call out traffic. Based on my experience, I am awful at spotting traffic with my eyes so technology is a huge improvement for me. Yeah, it was expensive, but worth it to me.
Click to expand...


:yes:
 
Walboy said:
THIS is the main reason I chose to comply with ADS-B In/Out now rather than later; traffic awareness. I can almost always see traffic on my display before seeing it with my eyeballs. I always see traffic on the display BEFORE ATC calls it out. I know exactly where to look. I have been in busy SOCAL airspace with heavy freq congestion where there sometimes simply is no opportunity for ATC to even call out traffic. Based on my experience, I am awful at spotting traffic with my eyes so technology is a huge improvement for me. Yeah, it was expensive, but worth it to me.

I do know it is not fool proof and I do keep my eyes outside. I know many will disagree with my thoughts.
Click to expand...

+1

Jim
 
Walboy said:
THIS is the main reason I chose to comply with ADS-B In/Out now rather than later; traffic awareness. I can almost always see traffic on my display before seeing it with my eyeballs. I always see traffic on the display BEFORE ATC calls it out. I know exactly where to look. I have been in busy SOCAL airspace with heavy freq congestion where there sometimes simply is no opportunity for ATC to even call out traffic. Based on my experience, I am awful at spotting traffic with my eyes so technology is a huge improvement for me. Yeah, it was expensive, but worth it to me.

I do know it is not fool proof and I do keep my eyes outside. I know many will disagree with my thoughts.
Click to expand...
No disagreement here. I'm putting ADS-B out in the Waco as soon as we figure out the best spot to mount the gps antenna.
 
Do I understand it correctly that ADS-B units will only report those aircraft with ads-b out?
 
Frogs97 said:
Do I understand it correctly that ADS-B units will only report those aircraft with ads-b out?
Click to expand...
Not exactly. If you have ADS-B In and Out, you get other ADS-B Out aircraft traffic direct from the other ADS-B out equipped aircraft. Non ADS-B Out equipped aircraft are transmitted to you via groundlink through ADS-B In (but only if you are equipped with ADS-B Out or are within the footprint of another ADS-B Out equipped aircraft).
 
Walboy said:
The link below is a pretty cool graphical representation of ADS-B coverage from ground stations at different altitudes. Even in most remote areas there is coverage...if you're high enough. In almost every congested area there is coverage at a low altitude. I have been very pleased with the coverage in AZ. IMO, this is something the FAA is doing a good job with.

https://www.faa.gov/nextgen/programs/adsb/ICM/
Click to expand...


Is that map AGL?

I found in the western states, coverage away from metro areas is "OK", but not great. Southern UT is questionable unless you go high. Personally, I can't wait until 2020 when I can be more confident of seeing _most_ traffic.

Ground stations are _much_ denser east of the Mississippi. Why is it that most areas west of the Mississippi get the shaft?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
Walboy said:
................I do know it is not fool proof and I do keep my eyes outside. I know many will disagree with my thoughts.
Click to expand...

God help us all if if there are many disagreements with this. If we start running into each other and try to excuse our way out responsibility because "it didn't show up on the fishbowl" you ain't seen nothing yet as to how much airspace is going to become positively controlled. The United States Class B??????
 
Yes I know one doesn't NEED a radio, but they both seem the type to have one or two. Why not just keep some comm going to work it out?

I do realize there can be those extenuating circumstances and all. It may be rather busy there too.

O.K., didn't realize it was a tower controlled field.
 
Last edited:
sourdough44 said:
Yes I know one doesn't NEED a radio, but they both seem the type to have one or two. Why not just keep some comm going to work it out?



I do realize there can be those extenuating circumstances and all. It may be rather busy there too.
Click to expand...

SDM isn't that busy, but it can get a little hairy at times between VFR arrivals and departures over the VOR as people are flying under the Class B.

That said, it is Class D with a Tower and both aircraft would have already been talking to tower at the point of collision (in the direction of the prison, but said to be within 2 miles of the airport). Unfortunately, SDM does not have a love ATC feed, so I have no idea what was said.

Haven't heard any tail numbers reported yet, but did hear on another board that the Sabreliner was a Navy contract.
 
luvflyin said:
God help us all if if there are many disagreements with this. If we start running into each other and try to excuse our way out responsibility because "it didn't show up on the fishbowl" you ain't seen nothing yet as to how much airspace is going to become positively controlled. The United States Class B??????
Click to expand...

Midair collisions are newsworthy and notable presumably because they are so rare. It has not been excellent visual scanning by pilots that has kept such accidents in the 1 to 2 percent range of types of ways pilots die.

I'm having some difficulty understanding why use or even misuse of traffic alert systems should in any way cause an increase in midair collisions, rather than a decrease.
 
I was up north on an acro training flight and landed at Gillespie to this news - very sad.

Until more is known, suspicion was the Sabreliner may have come up from Tijuana which is a very busy flight in something like the Sabreliner - about the only way you would have crossing traffic east/north-east of the field (GA for Left [south], Heavies for Right [north]).

I don't have a tally on all my flying friends from down there which include a couple instructors, hope they are OK - prayers for those lost, their families and friends.

'Gimp
 
AcroGimp said:
I don't have a tally on all my flying friends from down there which include a couple instructors, hope they are OK - prayers for those lost, their families and friends.

'Gimp
Click to expand...
Hoping for the best.

One of the San Diego news stations had a single photo showing the vertical stab of the Cessna. Yellow at the fuselage base and the vertical stab itself was white with some faint accent stripes. The rest of the wreckage photo were all of the Sabreliner.

http://www.nbcsandiego.com/news/local/2-Small-Planes-Collide-Midair-Killing-4-321999772.html

The Cessna tail I saw did not correlate with any of the big San Diego club (Plus One, PCF) airplanes or the First Flight planes.
 
Last edited:
It was N1285U, a Plus One Flyers aircraft that I had flown before...
 
Brown has probably been a lot busier than normal since MYF has two of its three runways closed for construction and will for quite a while with the current plans.

Flying in San Diego with SDM my airport of first solo, I'll be keeping an ear out for lessons learned.
 
Jim Logajan said:
Midair collisions are newsworthy and notable presumably because they are so rare. It has not been excellent visual scanning by pilots that has kept such accidents in the 1 to 2 percent range of types of ways pilots die.

I'm having some difficulty understanding why use or even misuse of traffic alert systems should in any way cause an increase in midair collisions, rather than a decrease.
Click to expand...

I was responding to a previous post that said "...I do know it is not fool proof and I do keep my eyes outside. I know many will disagree with my thoughts." I think Traffic Alert systems are very valuable. But a misuse of them would be to bury your head in the cockpit because you have it. If "visual scanning" isn't what has kept midair fatalities in the 1 to 2 percent range, what is? We're you talking just about recent years when TCAS and TCAS clones have become available to the bug smasher crowd?
 
ybitz said:
It was N1285U, a Plus One Flyers aircraft that I had flown before...
Click to expand...
Holy crap you're right. I just googled the number and it does indeed match the tail I saw in the wreckage.

I don't recall ever seeing it in the club though. When did it enter the club?

Feel bad for those left behind and really hoping it wasn't anyone I know.
 
luvflyin said:
I was responding to a previous post that said "...I do know it is not fool proof and I do keep my eyes outside. I know many will disagree with my thoughts." I think Traffic Alert systems are very valuable. But a misuse of them would be to bury your head in the cockpit because you have it. If "visual scanning" isn't what has kept midair fatalities in the 1 to 2 percent range, what is? We're you talking just about recent years when TCAS and TCAS clones have become available to the bug smasher crowd?
Click to expand...

I list some references to studies on this subject in this post:

http://www.pilotsofamerica.com/forum/showthread.php?p=1597661#post1597661
 
Jets and bugsmashers in same proximity....even with eyes outside if you pick each other up too late...this can happen.

This was a bad week for GA....Saddened by way too many stories in the news.

Side note....Thought sabreliners were rare these days....loud and not much around anymore...maybe it's just a particular model of saberliner????
 
Fearless Tower said:
I don't recall ever seeing it in the club though. When did it enter the club?
Click to expand...

I first flew her in 4 months ago; not sure when she first entered the club. She's been removed from ScheduleMaster already so can't look it up anymore. I'm worried that I know who the pilot was...
 
Jim Logajan said:
I list some references to studies on this subject in this post:

http://www.pilotsofamerica.com/forum/showthread.php?p=1597661#post1597661
Click to expand...

I did a quick scan of that. The general point seems to be, sometimes you scan but don't see. It makes a good point. Long thread, I'm looking forward to reading more. Thanks for the link. There was a Bonanza and a Seminole that collided a few years ago. The Bonanza pilot didn't make it, both in the Seminole did. The NTSB report conculded that because of the angles involved and the view out of the cockpits they never had a chance. Traffic alert may have saved the day on that one.
 
Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe said:
150 people died on the roads in the U.S. this weekend.
Click to expand...
Exponentially more vehicles on the road than GA planes in the air this weekend. I don't get the point. Seemed to be in response to poster saying it had been a tough weekend for GA. Just because there were some road accidents doesn't mean it still wasn't a tough weekend for GA. Even one fatality to me makes it a rough weekend.
 
Crap.I'm a plus one member too. Not familiar with that plane but I guess I need to check on my friends now :(
 
Jim Logajan said:
I'm having some difficulty understanding why use or even misuse of traffic alert systems should in any way cause an increase in midair collisions, rather than a decrease.
Click to expand...
Two cars, one has front, and side airbags. It also has all the technology possible for collision avoidance. In addition, it is engineered to almost perfect crash test results. It's the safest car on the planet.
Car two is an old rust bucket with no seat belts. In addition there is a 12 inch metal spike sticking out of the steering wheel.

Which car would you be more careful driving?
 
Last edited:
The big sky theory does not apply when planes are converging on the same point in space - like VORs, runways, etc.
I have been flying a long time and I have to tell you that I have near missed a few over the decades.
The one that still pizzes me off was a C150 painted misty grey, in an October drizzle after sundown doing circuits with a student and no lights.
They announced once every go around (they later claimed)
I announced at least twice after leaving approach control.
I came in off an IFR approach (straight in) and supposedly cut him off on the base leg. Never saw him. They came running to my hangar all excited and at first I'm like a deer in the headlights. Then I was pizzed.
Finally I said to the CFI, I'm flying to the FSDO in the morning and filing a complaint against you for operating VFR after sundown with no lights.
Then he looked like the deer in the headlights.
 
Dr. O said:
The big sky theory does not apply when planes are converging on the same point in space - like VORs, runways, etc.
I have been flying a long time and I have to tell you that I have near missed a few over the decades.
The one that still pizzes me off was a C150 painted misty grey, in an October drizzle after sundown doing circuits with a student and no lights.
They announced once every go around (they later claimed)
I announced at least twice after leaving approach control.
I came in off an IFR approach (straight in) and supposedly cut him off on the base leg. Never saw him. They came running to my hangar all excited and at first I'm like a deer in the headlights. Then I was pizzed.
Finally I said to the CFI, I'm flying to the FSDO in the morning and filing a complaint against you for operating VFR after sundown with no lights.
Then he looked like the deer in the headlights.
Click to expand...

Seems like an endless number of idiots can't find the light switch in cars and a few in airplanes around here.
 
Walboy said:
Not the GDL-88. The rebroadcast signal includes aircraft that are Mode C equipped as well as ADS-B out. The limitation of course is being line of sight from a rebroadcast tower. In this case of this accident, presumably everyone with an electrical system had Mode C since it is inside the Mode C veil and in theory would have shown up on an ADS-B In display.
Click to expand...

I also have a GDL88 and am inside the mode C veil of CLT class B. We have good radar coverage to feed the ground stations and there is a ground station at my airport. Even so, traffic does not show up below pattern altitude. ADS-B is good where there is radar coverage, but only a relatively few airports will have radar coverage at pattern altitude. In some places, ADS-B coverage does not exist below 5000 AGL. The point is that you can't expect TISB coverage at lower altitudes such as in the pattern. Air to Air where the target has ADS-B out does not have the limitation of needing to be both within the service volume of radar and a ground station that mode C traffic requires in order to show up.

IOW in and near the pattern, keep your eyes out as ADS-B may not help you.
 
StinkBug said:
Crap.I'm a plus one member too. Not familiar with that plane but I guess I need to check on my friends now :(
Click to expand...
I just talked to a friend who is a club CFI. The airplane used to be in the North Island Navy Club and at some point after that club folded, it showed up in Plus One. He hadn't flown it since it was at NZY.
 
ybitz said:
I first flew her in 4 months ago; not sure when she first entered the club. She's been removed from ScheduleMaster already so can't look it up anymore. I'm worried that I know who the pilot was...
Click to expand...
Yeah, like the PCF fatal, they were QUICK on removing it from the website. I can understand, just sucks to wait having a lot of friends in the club.

I don't know if there have been any others, but this is the first fatal I am familiar with for Plus One. Unfortunately not the first fatal midair for a Gibbs based airplane though.
 
TEFLONSEAN;1864611[B said:
]Jets and bugsmashers in same proximity....even with eyes outside if you pick each other up too late...this can happen.[/B]

This was a bad week for GA....Saddened by way too many stories in the news.

Side note....Thought sabreliners were rare these days....loud and not much around anymore...maybe it's just a particular model of saberliner????
Click to expand...

Agreed....:redface:..

I went to the airport yesterday, pulled the plane out for a morning flight and then noticed the largest day of incoming and departing Jackson has seen... At one point they were lined up 8 deep for departure... I smartly rolled it back into it's hangar....

Didn't help that the smoke from distant fires made the visibility poor.. And to top it off, the airport board will still NOT install a radar screen in the cab, even though the radar is 200 yards from the tower and that signal is sent to SLC 220 miles away...:mad2::mad2::mad2::mad:..


Sad for all involved for sure...:sad::sad::sad::sad::sad::sad:
 
Kritchlow said:
Two cars, one has front, and side airbags. It also has all the technology possible for collision avoidance. In addition, it is engineered to almost perfect crash test results. It's the safest car on the planet.
Car two is an old rust bucket with no seat belts. In addition there is a 12 inch metal spike sticking out of the steering wheel.

Which car would you be more careful driving?
Click to expand...

I know plenty of people who drive crappy old cars like they are NASCAR.

Complacency tends to happen regardless. Might as well have every tool to help.
 
Kritchlow said:
Two cars, one has front, and side airbags. It also has all the technology possible for collision avoidance. In addition, it is engineered to almost perfect crash test results. It's the safest car on the planet.
Car two is an old rust bucket with no seat belts. In addition there is a 12 inch metal spike sticking out of the steering wheel.

Which car would you be more careful driving?
Click to expand...

Car two. Then hopefully remember to remind myself, when I became complacent driving Car one, that I am not the only Car on the road and the others don't have "...all the technology possible for collision avoidance. In addition, it is engineered to almost perfect crash test results" and that technology is not infallible and that Car one deserves the same amount of respect that Car two does and if I find myself tending to fly around with my head buried in the cockpit to slap myself upside the head and get it out of the cockpit.
 
bnt83 said:
Seems like an endless number of idiots can't find the light switch in cars and a few in airplanes around here.
Click to expand...

It amazes me the number of pilots that will spend thousands on the latest and greatest electronic gizmo but won't spend 800 bucks to add a good set of strobe lights to their aircraft.

Bob
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top