Meowing on Guard- can it be stopped?

40YearDream said:
As far as tracking down the 'meows' (no connection to my avatar!) - would take a combination of a VHF automatic direction finder and ADS-B reception. Seems like it should be a relatively simple RF & software task to put the 2 signals together - some software to distinguish noise on 121.5 from intelligible speech (?), and correlate the 2 sources.
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Had a friend who was a Ham, and one of their frequencies was beset by some idiot with a radio. Turns out the FCC's resources to chase down this sort of thing are extremely thin...like two vehicles for the entire country.

Being a Ham, and having friends who were Hams, they set up their own system. Caught the guy in mid-transmit, just as he was claiming they'd never find him.....

Ron Wanttaja
 
In the past, we had some guys interfering with maritime nets and even faking distress calls. The FCC got involved and was able to catch the guy (alas, it was someone I knew). Synthesized radios all have a slightly different fingerprint in their frequency stability that can be used to identify them.
 
I find it odd that you can push a little button and speak on freq for all to hear yet the actual click isn't identifiable. maybe like when u send a transponder ident. so when you ptt your plane blip can, uh, blip on the radar screen for atc.
 
Ed Haywood said:
You need 2 or 3 direction finders to triangulate. Matching it up with an ADS-B ping is trivial. VDFs are already in the field for SAR and ATC, so I suspect it does not rise to the level of a problem the FAA feels worth the effort to pursue.

While incredibly juvenile and annoying, it is also harmless. Can anyone cite an instance where meowing continued during an emergency?
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1. ATC has to monitor guard, so these noises distract them from controlling traffic
2. I find myself turning the volume down on com 2 when people start cutting up on guard, so I might miss an important radio com. I fly in and out of the DC area so monitoring guard is even more important.
3. I have. 121.5 is a big party line, so these noises distract meowers may not even be aware thst there’s an emergency going on because it’s just outside their reception range.
 
Ed Haywood said:
We have ATC controllers who are PoA users. Are any of them on record confirming this?
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ATC does have to monitor guard. Not all Controllers at all facilities at all times. But there are procedures that all geographic areas are covered and there is communication available between facilities to alert each other if necessary.
 
luvflyin said:
ATC does have to monitor guard. Not all Controllers at all facilities at all times. But there are procedures that all geographic areas are covered and there is communication available between facilities to alert each other if necessary.
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Not questioning that. Looking for confirmation that meowing distracts them.
 
Ed Haywood said:
Not questioning that. Looking for confirmation that meowing distracts them.
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I’ve chatted with our local Tracon controllers about it. Guard is monitored on the overhead speaker at their console rather than in their ear. Just like pilots, it’s distracting to them as well. If you e been in a radar room you know controllers are generally pretty good about tuning out distractions but meow chatter just adds to the noise. The one saving grace for controllers is their guard antenna is ground based so it is not going to pick up as many cat convos as we pickup on the radio airborne.
 
Brad Z said:
I’ve chatted with our local Tracon controllers about it. Guard is monitored on the overhead speaker at their console rather than in their ear. Just like pilots, it’s distracting to them as well. If you e been in a radar room you know controllers are generally pretty good about tuning out distractions but meow chatter just adds to the noise. The one saving grace for controllers is their guard antenna is ground based so it is not going to pick up as many cat convos as we pickup on the radio airborne.
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Granted, I monitor guard more & fly higher now. I estimate about 50% of the flights at least 2 hours in duration, I have to silence that frequency at some point.

I've legitimately heard people using it for the right reason only to be stomped on by juvenile pilots that want to make themselves laugh.

It's distracting as hell and has led me to miss radio calls or have to ask "say again". I have to imagine it does the same thing to controllers
 
Ed Haywood said:
We have ATC controllers who are PoA users. Are any of them on record confirming this?
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Sister's bf works c90. Last dinner we discussed this. He does monitor and it is annoying... Except for that one guy ripped a massive wet fart for like 10 seconds. That made him laugh.
 
eman1200 said:
I find it odd that you can push a little button and speak on freq for all to hear yet the actual click isn't identifiable. maybe like when u send a transponder ident. so when you ptt your plane blip can, uh, blip on the radar screen for atc.
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There's a guy around here who used to run an electronic reconnaissance or EW unit in Vietnam. They flew DC-3's with Loran and I think PDP-11 computers in the back. They had a top secret (at the time) system that could get a bearing on a signal that was about as short as a key-click. With a couple of aircraft in the air they could pinpoint a location well enough to send people or shells there, pretty much real time.

That was what, 50 years ago? The system used 4+ antennas in an electronically rotated array to get the phase difference of the transmitter and convert that into a bearing. The concept was published in a ham radio magazine in maybe the 80's, and Ramsey electronics made a kit version that you could buy to just get the bearing for, I think, less than a couple of hundred dollars. They called it "doppler" in the ham community, but it's not really doppler.

Anyway, yeah, it's possible, and I'd suspect maybe easier/faster now, and maybe a built in function on modern EW aircraft. Guessing on that part. It would be trivial to overlay that with the noises and either direct radar or ADSB. Just sending someone the bill for a couple of hours of a couple of EC-135's or whatever would probably be enough of an incentive....assuming we have any ECM aircraft left in the US right now.

I've not done the noises thing, have never been that bored, but always thought it was harmless. That it's a distraction for ATC makes it seem less harmless.
 
Ed Haywood said:
While incredibly juvenile and annoying, it is also harmless. Can anyone cite an instance where meowing continued during an emergency?
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Not meowing, but guard police.

I was flying along one day and heard "Madison Approach, Arrow 12345." Followed by "You're on guard!" "GUAAAAAAAAARRRRRRDDDD" "Ha ha dumbass private pilot transmitting on guard..." etc for at least a minute, maybe two...

Followed by "MADISON APPROACH, ARROW 12345, WE ARE ON FIRE!!!" along with the emergency declaration.

Yes, you should say Mayday if you're having an emergency. Yes, he should have given more detail in the first call. No, I can't fault him for anything given that he was on fire. I can definitely fault all the guard police for preventing him from receiving any ATC services for a relatively long time.

Plus, a Venn diagram of people who say "GUAAAAAARRRRRRD" and the people who meow is a circle.

SixPapaCharlie said:
Granted, I monitor guard more & fly higher now. I estimate about 50% of the flights at least 2 hours in duration, I have to silence that frequency at some point.

I've legitimately heard people using it for the right reason only to be stomped on by juvenile pilots that want to make themselves laugh.

It's distracting as hell and has led me to miss radio calls or have to ask "say again". I have to imagine it does the same thing to controllers
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This. "CharterJet 123, contact Atlanta Center, 12MEOWer". "Say again for 123..." And this is often when the frequency is already busy and it's hard to get a word in edgewise.
 
Ed Haywood said:
You don't need military EW. Radio direction finding equipment is widely deployed for civilian SAR. If the FAA wanted to, they could do it tomorrow.

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I know that RDF, including phase detection equipment, is available at even a hobbyist level, but I didn't know that there were commercial solutions that could automatically combine data from 2+ sources to provide a near instant fix. It does makes sense that if anybody is using it the Coast Guard is.
 
eman1200 said:
I find it odd that you can push a little button and speak on freq for all to hear yet the actual click isn't identifiable. maybe like when u send a transponder ident. so when you ptt your plane blip can, uh, blip on the radar screen for atc.
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You don't hear a click because the transmitter takes some time to ramp up. When I built an anti-blocking device, I used a tone generator on the advice of a friend who was a ham enthusiast. It made a nice smooth beep a couple hundred milliseconds long, IIRC, to bridge the gap. A suggestion Paul Ryan (father of the Storm Scope) gave me in a phone conversation was the idea that a capacitor could be used to create the "click" and it could be charged by the ptt circuit. I didn't have much luck with that though. YMMV.
 
Yes the Guard Police can be idiots. I remember once listening to 121.5 and hearing “This is Cessna 12345 I’m a lost Student Pilot can anyone help me”. A USAir crew (yes it was that long ago) was coordinating between him and ATC to locate the Student Pilot. Some idiot Guard Police came on and said that Guard was for emergencies only. What the heck did he think a lost Student Pilot was?
 
Albany Tom said:
I know that RDF, including phase detection equipment, is available at even a hobbyist level, but I didn't know that there were commercial solutions that could automatically combine data from 2+ sources to provide a near instant fix. It does makes sense that if anybody is using it the Coast Guard is.
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Seems like it would be pretty straightforward with a krakenrf. A network of PiAware-like receivers could probably do it with TDoA so long as they had their clocks synced with GPS. Chip-scale atomic clocks will be amazing.
 
I remember once years ago over Colorado, I was on center and guard and heard both sides of a conversation. On guard, a GA pilot could not get the gear down and could not the emergency line up to work. The control then came up center and asked if anyone had experience with the type, last ditch effort I guess. Turns out that one pilot owned a plane of the same type, switched to guard and walked the GA pilot through the line up.

Aviation is a very small world.

Unless the cats are in mortal danger, meowing on guard is sophmoronic.
 
SixPapaCharlie said:
Granted, I monitor guard more & fly higher now. I estimate about 50% of the flights at least 2 hours in duration, I have to silence that frequency at some point.

I've legitimately heard people using it for the right reason only to be stomped on by juvenile pilots that want to make themselves laugh.

It's distracting as hell and has led me to miss radio calls or have to ask "say again". I have to imagine it does the same thing to controllers
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Is Guard and the frequency your on with ATC both in your headset? Or can you have Guard on speaker? Both pilots???
 
I tuned to guard once flying past Tallahassee and heard the following:

"Aaaaaand Delta flight xxx, this is your captain speaking, we'll be pulling away from the gate soon. Weather enroute is looking ... wait what? Oh crap."
 
The FAAs lackadaisical attitude to enforcing this spit on 121.5 mirrors my attitude to monitoring 121.5 enroute. Sorry,(not really)
 
SixPapaCharlie said:
Roll the volume to 1 so you're technically still monitoring it
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Um, ok. I think the word you were looking for is to 'mute'. Whether that still fits the definition of monitor I will leave as an exercise for the students.
 
I've added silencing guard when getting vectored for an instrument approach because of all the crap. I figure at that point, I'm talking to all the people I need and it's a high stress time, don't need stupid distractions.
 
wanttaja said:
Had a friend who was a Ham, and one of their frequencies was beset by some idiot with a radio. Turns out the FCC's resources to chase down this sort of thing are extremely thin...like two vehicles for the entire country.
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RDFLorry1927.jpgRDFLorry1927.jpg
 
FDC NOTAM 4/4386 requires "…all aircraft operating in United States National Airspace, if capable, shall maintain a listening watch on VHF GUARD 121.5 or UHF 243.0."

If doing so causes a distraction, I'd say you're "not capable".
 
Mtns2Skies said:
GenZ*. Millennials have taken enough **** from yall. The youngest of us are 30
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Thanks for proving my point Ryan. The last two to wash out were 36 and 32 respectively. One accepted it, the other is fighting it. They both claimed it wasn’t their fault and was the result of substandard training.

Don’t get me started on GenZ.
 
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