Lying on medical

Discussion in 'Medical Topics' started by Globalpilot, Oct 6, 2018.

  1. Globalpilot

    Globalpilot Filing Flight Plan

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    I am very curious. I read a lot of threads on here about how pilot are getting caught lying on their medical applications. My question is what are they doing in order to get caught. Crashing airplanes? Having people squeal on them? My understanding is that the FAA cannot see your personal medical records without your permission so how are guys getting caught
     
  2. Tarheelpilot

    Tarheelpilot Ejection Handle Pulled

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    FAA gets told one version of the story. Some other government agency gets told another.
    That’s one way


    The other is you tell the FAA about something. At medical renewal you give a different date for same previously reported event. In the FAA world view you are not telling the truth. There is no such thing as a good faith mistake. You are assumed to be lying.
     
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  3. lbfjrmd

    lbfjrmd Pre-takeoff checklist

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    untruths: of omission, commission and confusion!
     
  4. Ryanb

    Ryanb Final Approach PoA Supporter

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    I’d say that’s one of the most common ways.

    Remember, it’s a felony not to disclose a condition that you have on the application, that includes any lies you put on it. Eventually, karma will come back to bite you.
     
    Last edited: Oct 6, 2018
  5. Stewartb

    Stewartb Final Approach

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    How many of you have had an enforcement action for a medical violation? I've known guys who've cheated the system but have never heard of anyone in or close to my circle of pilot frinds who've had any aeromedical violation investigations.
     
  6. Checkout_my_Six

    Checkout_my_Six Final Approach

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    Just remember.....It's all fun and games till someone loses an eye. :D
     
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  7. Stan Cooper

    Stan Cooper Line Up and Wait

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    Google "Operation Safe Pilot."

    In a blatant violation of the privacy act of 1974 as amended, the FAA, DOT Inspector General, and SSA Inspector General, conducted an illegal database match looking for common personally identifying information (names and/or social security numbers) in the FAA medical certificate database and the SSA Title 2 and Title 16 disability databases of 45,000 Northern California pilots with current medical certificates. In sworn declarations, lawyers for the agencies lied by stating the investigation was a post-9/11/2001 operation to simply verify that pilots were who they claimed to be, and that the discovery that some were collecting SSA disability benefits was coincidental. From its inception, Operation Safe Pilot was about discovering pilots who had falsified their medical certificate applications. In fact, the "investigation" was so sloppy that some of the indicted pilots had been on disability briefly, but hadn't collected benefits for nearly a decade. Forty-five pilots were indicted, and the DOT Inspector General told congress that "hundreds more" could have been prosecuted if the Northern and Central California Attornies General had had more resources.

    The privacy act does provide for agencies to conduct database matches under certain conditions, and notices of the proposed matches must be published in the Federal Register stating what the agencies are looking for, why it is legal, and providing time (typically 90 days) for public comment before executing the match. The agencies also have to provide notice in the Federal Register that they are changing the systems of records involved to be applicable to "routine use."

    In 2010, the FAA, SSA, and DOT made the changes and published the notices to make these "fishing expeditions" legal. The term "fishing expedition" is used in the Federal Register OMB guidance on agencies complying with the privacy act, and the guidance prohibits database matches where personally identifying information is being search for unless it is for a named individual already under active investigation. These 2010 changes were made six years after the Operation Safe Pilot fiasco.
     
  8. Rushie

    Rushie Pattern Altitude

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    Most of the recent threads here are about the two fishing expeditions the FAA conducted with SS and VA disability. Stan can tell you more about how that worked out legally with respect to the right to privacy with medical records. I think it ended up the FAA can dig all they want as long as they first publish a small notice in some obscure publication.

    Edit: Well there he beat me to it by 2 minutes!:)

    I know personally of one case where a pilot dropped a dime... (that means put a coin in one of the old style pay phones and anonymously call the FAA, even though it was at least a quarter by the time those went away - if you are too young to get that phrase. I mean, young uns nowadays don't even know what "rough engine" means so I'm just covering all bases. No offense intended.) ...on a fellow pilot. He had knowledge that the other pilot had been prescribed and was using some disqualifying drugs. Even then, the FAA did not directly query the pilot's medical records, but sent a letter to the pilot demanding they turn them over.

    And then of course when you bend metal or hurt people the subsequent investigation will uncover everything. Ordinarily you might get away with lying, omitting etc. I've heard pilots talk about not reporting their migraines and to my knowledge they've never been caught. And once in a while you hear of pilots flying with no medical at all or expired medical and they never get caught until they bend metal or kill themselves.

    And then there are the discrepancies in what you do report as someone already mentioned. Is there some kind of automatic info sharing of all your medical records with the FAA? No, not yet, and no, the FAA does not obtain and read all medical records of all pilots who apply. They don't have the manpower to do that, or at least before the age of aggregate shared queried electronic databases they didn't. But now that such things exist, agencies are salivating at the potential.

    So there you have it, you need to assume whatever your secret, the FAA can potentially find out. It's far safer for you to disclose everything in the first place and work through any snags. This is why on this forum we strongly advise consulting with a knowledgeable AME before ever applying for the medical, so you know where you stand and can proactively address any problematic issues.
     
    Last edited: Oct 6, 2018
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  9. mryan75

    mryan75 Pre-takeoff checklist

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    And again, zero sympathy for any of them. Here's the world's smallest violin.
     
  10. mryan75

    mryan75 Pre-takeoff checklist

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    So, what'd ya lie about?
     
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  11. James331

    James331 Touchdown! Greaser!

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    That.

    It’s all about the databases
     
  12. midlifeflyer

    midlifeflyer Final Approach

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    There are plenty. I represented a pilot on one just this past year.

    Then there are those where the FAA goes further and, in addition to revoking all certificates and ratings, refers the case to the DOJ for criminal prosecution.

    To the OP's question:

    The FAA finds out in various ways, in addition to the current controversial sharing of information between agencies. It might be an accident; it might be a report from someone; it might be a pilot who doesn't disclose a DUI which the FAA picks up when it checks the MV database; it might eve be something tiny like giving inconsistent answers to one of the questions in group 18.
     
  13. bflynn

    bflynn En-Route

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    Remember that most pilots who have lost their medicals because they lied are probably not around here to talk about it. Why? Because they can longer fly.
     
  14. Rushie

    Rushie Pattern Altitude

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    They can, they just can't legally. :D
     
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  15. timwinters

    timwinters Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    Wouldn't it be nice if, when you opened up Med Expres, all the information that you had included in your last application was there for reference. It sure would eliminate a lot of phone calls and digging through files for me.

    Gosh, one might consider that to be...umm...a good service!

    I know, I know... Wish in one hand and chit in the other and see which fills up fastest...
     
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  16. midlifeflyer

    midlifeflyer Final Approach

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    It would be tempting to say it's intentional, but there may be some other issues with doing that.

    Of course, it would be nice if we could perform that service for ourselves. Oh yeah, we can!
     
  17. murphey

    murphey Final Approach PoA Supporter

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    What? You don't keep copies?
     
  18. timwinters

    timwinters Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    Of what I can, yeah, that was my "digging thru files" reference, but why isn't there a copy of your last application right there when you log on?
     
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  19. Checkout_my_Six

    Checkout_my_Six Final Approach

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    so....does everyone repeat their whole life medical history....or just the recent stuff since the last medical exam?
     
  20. timwinters

    timwinters Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    It says "last three years" so there's a one year overlap for us older guys applying for a third class.
     
  21. Checkout_my_Six

    Checkout_my_Six Final Approach

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    so....how can one get that wrong?
     
  22. timwinters

    timwinters Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    It would be hard, but why reinvent the wheel every two years filling out that **** when you already did it once?
     
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  23. Checkout_my_Six

    Checkout_my_Six Final Approach

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    I guess if I forget to mention I had my gallbladder out three years ago on my next ....that's gonna be a prollum. :confused:
     
  24. midlifeflyer

    midlifeflyer Final Approach

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    It's not those. It's usually the "have you ever" questions. Even without a lie, I've seen situations in which the need to disclose something might have been questionable and the pilot answered "yes" one year, but "no" in a later year.
     
  25. midlifeflyer

    midlifeflyer Final Approach

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    I guess it takes more digging for some than for others. I can pull up any of my medical apps since 1995 in less time than it takes to log into MedXpress.
     
  26. Tarheelpilot

    Tarheelpilot Ejection Handle Pulled

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    Consistency is paramount. I keep copies of all my applications.
     
  27. James331

    James331 Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Same reason they ask suspects the same question a few times in interviews.
     
  28. Clip4

    Clip4 En-Route

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    A. Investigating complaints from citizens and co-workers. You would be surprised how many complaints FSDOs receive for folks reporting their family members.
    B. Post accident investigations.
    C. National Driving Record Registry - DUI and drag convictions
     
  29. Globalpilot

    Globalpilot Filing Flight Plan

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    That really sucks
     
  30. Globalpilot

    Globalpilot Filing Flight Plan

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    Reporting your own family member????
     
  31. Salty

    Salty En-Route PoA Supporter

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    We have people on this board that have been talking about getting a license for years and still haven’t taken a lesson. So I’m not sure if that matters much.
     
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  32. Salty

    Salty En-Route PoA Supporter

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    Either mischievous spell check elves stuck again, or I am far too stupid to avoid making a felonious mistake. I have no idea what that first sentence means.
     
  33. Vince R

    Vince R Pre-takeoff checklist

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    Wow - are there really 45,000 pilots with current medicals in just Northern California?
     
  34. Rcmutz

    Rcmutz Pre-takeoff checklist

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    I just print mine out from year to year.
     
  35. BrianNC

    BrianNC Pattern Altitude

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    I wish somebody would have told me that last year when I filled out my first med in 11 years. Didn't even think about it.
     
  36. Stan Cooper

    Stan Cooper Line Up and Wait

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    Yes. This July, 2007, document regarding the DOT Inspector General's congressional testimony says "...a universe of about 40,000 pilots residing in Northern California."

    https://www.oig.dot.gov/sites/default/files/SAFE_PILOT_Testimony_july17.pdf

    The earlier figure from internal SSA-OIG emails obtained during discovery in my civil suit was 45,396. As noted in the email from Sandra Johnson, that includes pilots from Bakersfield north to the Oregon border. It does not include all the pilots from Bakersfield south to the Mexican border (L.A. basin, Mojave Desert, Inland Empire, Orange County, San Diego).
    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Oct 7, 2018
  37. Rcmutz

    Rcmutz Pre-takeoff checklist

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    Just finished my Med Express this morning for exam later this month. Printed it out, and now have it for next time as well.
     
  38. mryan75

    mryan75 Pre-takeoff checklist

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    You wouldn't report your dad or grandpa if he had a serious medical condition that could endanger his passengers and he was lying about it? I sure as hell would.
     
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  39. Kenny Phillips

    Kenny Phillips Cleared for Takeoff

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    Yep. I know several folks that got their elders' driving privileges revoked.
     
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  40. bbchien

    bbchien Touchdown! Greaser!

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    You mean like the 4 guys who just got indicted? Yeah, that's the ticket!
     
    Last edited: Oct 11, 2018