Lycoming hit with $26M verdict!!!

When you buy a part, about 50% of the cost goes to liability insurance. This is why.

Tort reform would bring prices way, way down. And then the manufacturers would have more money to do R&D. Before long at this rate, experimental will be all we've got in the piston world.
 
Here's an article on the matter not published by a psycopath.

http://www.law360.com/articles/430970/engine-maker-hit-with-26m-verdict-over-2008-plane-crash

They also sued Precision Airmotive who made the carburator they allege caused the crash. It was only Lycoming's fault to install the thing on their engine and allegedly hide the fact that they knew it was a defective design.

Pilot was a United Airlines pilot. Oddly, neither the NTSB, Lycoming, or Precision Airmotive think there was anything wrong with that carburator other than having it slammed into the ground at a high rate of speed

http://www.ntsb.gov/aviationquery/brief.aspx?ev_id=20080731X01132&key=1
 
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Problem is there was a court that decided that Lycoming carburetors are defective, a clear break with reality. Now any court can make the same claim. Lycoming needs to hire better lawyers.
 
flyingron said:
Here's an article on the matter not published by a psycopath.

http://www.law360.com/articles/430970/engine-maker-hit-with-26m-verdict-over-2008-plane-crash

They also sued Precision Airmotive who made the carburator they allege caused the crash. It was only Lycoming's fault to install the thing on their engine and allegedly hide the fact that they knew it was a defective design.

Pilot was a United Airlines pilot. Oddly, neither the NTSB, Lycoming, or Precision Airmotive think there was anything wrong with that carburator other than having it slammed into the ground at a high rate of speed

http://www.ntsb.gov/aviationquery/brief.aspx?ev_id=20080731X01132&key=1
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You mean one paragraph unless you buy a subscription.
 
steingar said:
Problem is there was a court that decided that Lycoming carburetors are defective, a clear break with reality. Now any court can make the same claim. Lycoming needs to hire better lawyers.
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These cases are being decided by the bottom 10% of society. It won't matter how good the lawyers are. Cases are being decided by people who aren't smart enough to get out of jury duty.
 
Believe it or not, there is actually a lawyer over on the BeechTalk forum defending his fellow brethren (plaintiff's attorneys).
 
steingar said:
Problem is there was a court that decided that Lycoming carburetors are defective, a clear break with reality. Now any court can make the same claim. Lycoming needs to hire better lawyers.
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Unfortunately it's been shown time and time again that nobody cares about anything but who has big pockets.

bnt83 said:
*Textron posts Avco Corporation for sale*
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For various reasons, I doubt if they will sell it.
 
Ted DuPuis said:
When you buy a part, about 50% of the cost goes to liability insurance. This is why.
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Actually, last time I talked to someone at Cessna, it was only about 25%. The amortized liability insurance per aircraft was second only to the engine as the costliest component in the aircraft.
 
steingar said:
Problem is there was a court that decided that Lycoming carburetors are defective, a clear break with reality.
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I don't know that it was an entirely clear break with reality.

From what I have read elsewhere, it sounds like they did a test run of the engine (after the crash) and it was determined that there was a defect in the carberator. As I read it, the carb was not actually made by Lyc, but the OEM went bankrupt, so they went after Lyc. There is also a rumor that Lyc may have attempted to withold evidence of the possible carb defect.

So while the defect may not have had anything to do with the accident, it was apparently there and Lycoming obviously has the deepest pockets in the situation to 'make things right'...hence the verdict.

Not saying that any of that is just (obviously even if there was a defect in the carb, it wasn't the cause of the crash)....just one possible explanation for how lawsuits like this turn out.

steingar said:
Lycoming needs to hire better lawyers.
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I agree.
 
Im sure being a pilot would immediately disqualify you from being a jury member on this case. What about a passenger?

Anyway, the NTSB site says this:

"To ensure that Safety Board investigations focus only on improving transportation safety, the Board's analysis of factual information and its determination of probable cause cannot be entered as evidence in a court of law."

I'm not sure i see the conflict that the NTSB is attempting to avoid in that statement.
 
I'm pretty sure Lycoming will fight this case with an appeal.. in fact I wouldn't be surprised if they sort of let the big wins slide in some respects as an appellate judge my make swift haste in reducing such penalties if they are indeed able to prove they weren't negligent.
 
Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe said:
That's only 8 digits. Auto companies get hit for 9 digits per law suit. And they get sued more often. Way more often.
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But those lawsuit costs get distributed over 1000's of new cars. Aviation over 10's of new airplanes.
 
RJM62 said:
"Loser Pays" would solve most of these problems.

-Rich
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Not to put a price on human life, but putting a price on human life would also help. Sorry, I'm guessing those people aren't worth $8MM each - I know for sure I'm not.
 
EdFred said:
Not to put a price on human life, but putting a price on human life would also help. Sorry, I'm guessing those people aren't worth $8MM each - I know for sure I'm not.
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Human life is worth a lot more than 8MM each.. or 26Million.. money can't come close to replacing the loss of life.

I would seriously be disgusted with our country and our judicial system if there was a "cost of doing business" that was capped at per capita rates..

Then there would just be "acceptable losses" of life as measured on a P&L

barfaroni
 
supernovae said:
Human life is worth a lot more than 8MM each.. or 26Million.. money can't come close to replacing the loss of life.

I would seriously be disgusted with our country and our judicial system if there was a "cost of doing business" that was capped at per capita rates..

Then there would just be "acceptable losses" of life as measured on a P&L

barfaroni
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Fine, pay me $8MM to keep me from killing myself if I'm worth so much. Oh, you don't have it? Guess I'm not worth it.

What is a human life worth? Whatever we insure ourselves for. Currently, I'm worth $10,000.
 
The courts are one of America's favorite lottos. Something bad happens to your family and go for the gold!! Lawyers take $10m, government $8m, you still get to take home $8,000,000. Whoo Hoo! All the while telling yourself you dealt a blow to the evil corporations in the name of the little guy.

Juries will always award to sobbing widows. After all, it's free insurance money and money from big corporations, right? Why not help the family out and do it for the children?

On the AOPA forums there is a thread about the Pipistrel Panthera and a poster over there was wondering why America can't be competitive in the GA business anymore. Well, here is one great big reason. Want to design a new airplane, or airplane engine? Forget it. You'll lose everything in the end.
 
The problem with lawsuits like this where there is a "victim" who suffers, the plaintiffs' lawyer will look at the lawsuit not on the basis of factual knowledge, or on the basis of who is at fault, but on the basis of whether or not they can paint the plaintiffs' or their survivors as suffering and finding a jury that has empathy with their suffering and paint the defendents as big bad wolf who needs to pay for the suffering of the victims. Reality has nothing to do with these lawsuits, and the lawyers on both sides know that. It is a popularity contest that has nothing to do with the facts.
 
Fearless Tower said:
Believe it or not, they actually teach it that way in law school.
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I believe it.

flyingron said:
Actually, last time I talked to someone at Cessna, it was only about 25%. The amortized liability insurance per aircraft was second only to the engine as the costliest component in the aircraft.
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Sorry, I meant specific to the engine.

jasc15 said:
Im sure being a pilot would immediately disqualify you from being a jury member on this case. What about a passenger?

Anyway, the NTSB site says this:

"To ensure that Safety Board investigations focus only on improving transportation safety, the Board's analysis of factual information and its determination of probable cause cannot be entered as evidence in a court of law."

I'm not sure i see the conflict that the NTSB is attempting to avoid in that statement.
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The conflict is basically saying that, if a manufacturer screws up, they can admit it to the NTSB without it being admitted in court. It makes sense because the request is for manufacturers to be honest without worrying about legal consequences.

The problem is that, if you show evidence that states you weren't at fault to the NTSB, that's also not admissible.
 
EdFred said:
Fine, pay me $8MM to keep me from killing myself if I'm worth so much. Oh, you don't have it? Guess I'm not worth it.

What is a human life worth? Whatever we insure ourselves for. Currently, I'm worth $10,000.
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sucks to be you :)

I'm worth a billion trillion dollars! :D

BTW Textron is a 12.2 billion dollar company.. 26 million is a slap on the wrist.
 
supernovae said:
Human life is worth a lot more than 8MM each.. or 26Million.. money can't come close to replacing the loss of life.
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Then why even try? If $26,000,000 isn't even close, isn't that sort of insulting? Why not do as they do in 3rd world countries? They sob and mourn the loss of a loved one bury them and move on. They chalk it up to the way life goes and divine intervention. There is no expectation to become millionaires. If the product is trully defective and the cause of the death, word gets out and people quickly stop buying that product. You know, like the old days, when our country was growing upwards instead of downwards.
 
supernovae said:
sucks to be you :)

I'm worth a billion trillion dollars! :D

BTW Textron is a 12.2 billion dollar company.. 26 million is a slap on the wrist.
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Why don't you look at Lycoming's revenue. Hint: it's not even close.
 
jasc15 said:
Im sure being a pilot would immediately disqualify you from being a jury member on this case. What about a passenger?

Anyway, the NTSB site says this:

"To ensure that Safety Board investigations focus only on improving transportation safety, the Board's analysis of factual information and its determination of probable cause cannot be entered as evidence in a court of law."

I'm not sure i see the conflict that the NTSB is attempting to avoid in that statement.
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The basic idea behind granting privilege in the NTSB reports is that parties to an accident can be more free in their sharing of information with the NTSB, without fear that that information will later be used to sue them.

There's a balance here: 1) Giving the Court the benefit of information at trial against 2) Giving the NTSB the information they need to try and fix safety issues in the future.

Much like the ASRS system, a decision was made to get relevant information into the hands of investigators rather than lawyers.
 
douglas393 said:
The problem with lawsuits like this where there is a "victim" who suffers, the plaintiffs' lawyer will look at the lawsuit not on the basis of factual knowledge, or on the basis of who is at fault, but on the basis of whether or not they can paint the plaintiffs' or their survivors as suffering and finding a jury that has empathy with their suffering and paint the defendents as big bad wolf who needs to pay for the suffering of the victims. Reality has nothing to do with these lawsuits, and the lawyers on both sides know that. It is a popularity contest that has nothing to do with the facts.
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The "victim" & "Suffering" concept goes both ways.

I was on jury duty for someone that beat his girlfriend and threatened to kill her, the defense was "the scars weren't there, they were just not that visible" and while the entire case was weak, we found the defendant guilty.. but while we were in the back debating the nonsense of the entire case - both people were complete jerks and idiots the defendant waived his rights to a jury to determine the punishment (we thought we were going to next deliberate to talk about getting psychiatric help and counseling in lieu of just slapping another fine or jail time on him that he wouldn't pay or probably wouldn't serve)

Anyway, we didn't know the entire history of either person, we could only judge on that single case. Regardless of how GOOD or BAD they were 99.9999999999999% of the time, that was all irrelevant, but in this exact case, there was enough evidence to bust his sorry ass.

It turns out, when the judge did convict him, we did get to listen to the judge give him a hard time - for not only beating this girlfriend, but also now bringing to light his case of habitual patterns of abuse, threats, fighting, arrests and jail times. To think, we almost bent the law because the law seemed weak to let him ride for appearing to not cause "that much" harm..


I guess to loop back around to this case, being a civil case judged by peers - peers who CAN'T know ANYTHING other than the merits that the courts, lawyers, plaintiff and defendants are talking about and clearly represent.

It doesn't matter if aviation gets more expensive to the judge or jury because of their verdict because they don't weigh such verdicts on such merits - they're not allowed to. An appellate judge/court, has such authority.

If there is / was negligence, the verdict was a slap on the wrist in the grand scheme of things.
 
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supernovae said:
Human life is worth a lot more than 8MM each.. or 26Million.. money can't come close to replacing the loss of life.

I would seriously be disgusted with our country and our judicial system if there was a "cost of doing business" that was capped at per capita rates..

Then there would just be "acceptable losses" of life as measured on a P&L

barfaroni
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It depends what type of human life, some are worthless. :stirpot:
 
steingar said:
Lycoming needs to hire better lawyers.
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I don't know. I have worked with some folks from Perkins Coie, whom I assume represented them in this matter. They are pretty sharp. This probably has more to do with the venue, and the jury.
 
jasc15 said:
Anyway, the NTSB site says this:

"To ensure that Safety Board investigations focus only on improving transportation safety, the Board's analysis of factual information and its determination of probable cause cannot be entered as evidence in a court of law."

I'm not sure i see the conflict that the NTSB is attempting to avoid in that statement.
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It is to encourage participation in the investigation by various parties (such as manufacturers, or air carrier operators), rather than stone-walling. You aren't going to want to give information to the NTSB, whom you have no control over, if their findings are going to be admissible against you if you don't like what they find.
 
I wouldn't blame Lycoming for just closing up shop. The liability is too much for their piddling revenues.
 
The whole thing is absurd. How does any amount of money help with the bereavement process? How does having a lump sum of money to buy stuff with help me and does it really honor those that perished? The only value I see is the punishment of those responsible, and from what I have read it at least appears that Lycoming wasn't.

The death of a family member should not be cause for a financial bonus unless they choose to leave us something. Even with that I would gladly give back the meager money I received from the passing of my Dad to have him back.

In closing as Ed said, we choose the value of life when we select the amount of our life insurance.

And that's all I have to say about that!!
 
EdFred said:
Let me see the insurance policy stating so. In reality, you're probably worth about $300,000.
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Insurance value is such a lousy way to measure your worth.

My employer provides that much insurance as a benefit, I buy more but in reality, i'm worth infinitely more because my 2 daughters and wife growing up without me has no limit on monetary value.

You can't put a price on it
 
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