LVK to MRY

Palmpilot said:
When you're approaching through SQL's airspace, SQL Tower will tell you if SFO Tower is not accepting transitions. However, as a backup, never cross Highway 92 before hearing "cleared into class bravo."
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Or Palo Alto if you ask them. Sometimes ATIS at PAO even says if they aren't.

NorCal might or might not know. Nothing wrong with asking.
 
MAKG1 said:
Or Palo Alto if you ask them. Sometimes ATIS at PAO even says if they aren't.

NorCal might or might not know. Nothing wrong with asking.
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Yup.
 
If the crew car isn't available, Uber is. You may need to walk to the main street for Uber to recognize the location for pick up because Del Monte is basically on a long access road that Uber doesn't route to. Or, call the driver after you hail him so he knows where to find you.
 
One of the differences with a class C airport is clearance delivery.

They will want you to read back the clearance and it is easy if you have written it down.

I find it difficult to read back correctly from memory.

You will also want to be at or above 2,000 feet over the Ano Nuevo State reserve.

Flight operations below 1,000 feet agl within the Monterey Bay National Marine Sanctuary violate NOAA regulations.
 
Only some Class Cs use CD for VFR, and even then all they want is your desired departure direction. I believe MRY uses Ground for that purpose, much like a Class D. There isn't much clearance to read back VFR. Mainly noise abatement (no turns before crossing the highway). I don't believe they have any altitude restriction like Fresno does. It really is rather sleepy.

Heck, I've done a VFR departure out of that airport that included a left 360 loop around the Peninsula and a midfield crossing northbound (my request; sightseeing).

It's not like IFR where the clearance will contain one of 27 named standard departures with wacky spelling.
 
Qotile said:
If the crew car isn't available, Uber is. You may need to walk to the main street for Uber to recognize the location for pick up because Del Monte is basically on a long access road that Uber doesn't route to. Or, call the driver after you hail him so he knows where to find you.
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Yeah, that's what I kinda figured would be my worst-case scenario. Thanks

Vance Breese said:
One of the differences with a class C airport is clearance delivery.

They will want you to read back the clearance and it is easy if you have written it down.

I find it difficult to read back correctly from memory.

You will also want to be at or above 2,000 feet over the Ano Nuevo State reserve.

Flight operations below 1,000 feet agl within the Monterey Bay National Marine Sanctuary violate NOAA regulations.
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MAKG1 said:
Only some Class Cs use CD for VFR, and even then all they want is your desired departure direction. I believe MRY uses Ground for that purpose, much like a Class D. There isn't much clearance to read back VFR. Mainly noise abatement (no turns before crossing the highway). I don't believe they have any altitude restriction like Fresno does. It really is rather sleepy.

Heck, I've done a VFR departure out of that airport that included a left 360 loop around the Peninsula and a midfield crossing northbound (my request; sightseeing).

It's not like IFR where the clearance will contain one of 27 named standard departures with wacky spelling.
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That would be the only thing of concern...how to handle the CD as opposed to just contacting Ground. Though, i'm more than sure I'd be able to figure it out.
 
vkhosid said:
That would be the only thing of concern...how to handle the CD as opposed to just contacting Ground. Though, i'm more than sure I'd be able to figure it out.
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IF you use it (and I don't think you do at MRY), it's just something like "Cessna 123XY departing VFR to the north [request flight following to Livermore] with India." Then, you contact Ground with "Ready to taxi." Read back runway assignments and hold-short instructions. They may want you to cross 28L and use 28R, but I really doubt it. Not enough traffic (Honestly, Livermore is worse. Really).

When in doubt, contact CD first, but don't be surprised if their response is "Contact Ground 120.875." If they do that, they want you to give your departure request to Ground. The expected response for a VFR departure is a squawk code and departure frequency, just like it is from Livermore with flight following.

Don't forget to request flight following with your departure request if you want it. Otherwise, you'll be dropped when you leave Class C. You'll get the squawk code regardless because it's Class C.

It's really not that different from Class D. They just may have an additional body in the tower cab.
 
vkhosid said:
Yeah, that's what I kinda figured would be my worst-case scenario. Thanks

That would be the only thing of concern...how to handle the CD as opposed to just contacting Ground. Though, i'm more than sure I'd be able to figure it out.
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Listen to the ATIS. It may say to call Ground directly; if so, it's just like a Delta. If not, call up CD first. It's still usually the same person, so they often don't even notice which freq you use. The most common clearance for VFR departures is "Runway heading until the coast (or CA1), then on course. Squawk XXXX Depature frequency 127.15" You'll get a code and departure freq always, which is the thing that really separates it from Deltas. You'll need to read it back, and some controllers are stickier about that than others.

The arrival has a couple gotchas. First, the pattern is ALWAYS on the East. For both runways. There's a hill on the other side. Be aware that the IFR flights (often big turboprops and jets) come over the hill, and if you're on 28R, do not cross into approach for 28L. You may not see the plane on final for it because of the hill and they are much faster than you. The thresholds of the two runways aren't in the same place, which can make judging 28R a challenge. However, they will often ask parking and put you on 28L if there's no traffic to shorten your taxi. It will still be right traffic, so ensure you know which runway you're landing on. LVK has similar issues, so you should be familiar with this already.

And, yes, the 1800' pattern will mess with your timing. Expect it, and be ready to go around if you get the approach wrong. Parallel approaches by the big iron can mess with your head, too. Departures are nearly always from 28L for transient, no matter how small you are. The runup area is huge...and invisible to tower. There is a dashed line that shows the edge of their vision, in case you're wondering what that extra line is for.

The other line to worry about is the RED one. Look for it and DO NOT CROSS IT. You may not go near it on arrival, but you will on departure. Stay religiously on the taxiway...crossing the red line may net a security response. Of course, since there's a small chance you'll be playing with bigger jets, don't forget about jet blast. Ground controller will be watching for you, but keep your ears open. If a jet gets an instruction to move, make sure you know where it is and that it won't affect you.

All that said, MRY is a sleepy, easy airport. I've been there many times and it's great. Del Monte used to be the best small GA FBO there, but they've tightened up to be as restrictive as the Jet Center. 15 gallons or $45 ramp fee, they won't budge, either FBO. Del Monte is a shorter taxi and more convenient, though.

Have fun!
 
arnoha, I think you mean to say the pattern is always on the NORTH. The runways are both east/west.

Patterns don't matter at any towered airport when the tower is operating. They will just always tell you to make right traffic for 28L or 28R, or more likely to enter right base when arriving from the northeast.
 
MAKG1 said:
arnoha, I think you mean to say the pattern is always on the NORTH. The runways are both east/west.

Patterns don't matter at any towered airport when the tower is operating. They will just always tell you to make right traffic for 28L or 28R, or more likely to enter right base when arriving from the northeast.
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Ah, you are correct. I suffer from a classic issue of Bay Area natives where North and South refer to toward SF and away from SF. Even all the flying can't seem to shake that many-decade crutch.

Yeah, I know patterns don't mean anything when the tower is in operation. It can just throw you off if you aren't expecting the overlapping patterns for the two runways, so I mentioned it. The key is to be absolutely sure which runway you were just cleared for. I personally mentally set up at MRY or LVK with both the left and right, but also "big runway" or "little runway". (Yeah, that doesn't work at SJC...) I'll usually say it in my readback, too, just so the tower can catch me if I'm backward. ("Cleared to land the big runway, 28L, 4SP") Haven't made a mistake yet, but I've certainly forgotten or been unsure on the way in and asked for clarification.
 
arnoha said:
Listen to the ATIS. It may say to call Ground directly; if so, it's just like a Delta. If not, call up CD first. It's still usually the same person, so they often don't even notice which freq you use. The most common clearance for VFR departures is "Runway heading until the coast (or CA1), then on course. Squawk XXXX Depature frequency 127.15" You'll get a code and departure freq always, which is the thing that really separates it from Deltas. You'll need to read it back, and some controllers are stickier about that than others.

The arrival has a couple gotchas. First, the pattern is ALWAYS on the East. For both runways. There's a hill on the other side. Be aware that the IFR flights (often big turboprops and jets) come over the hill, and if you're on 28R, do not cross into approach for 28L. You may not see the plane on final for it because of the hill and they are much faster than you. The thresholds of the two runways aren't in the same place, which can make judging 28R a challenge. However, they will often ask parking and put you on 28L if there's no traffic to shorten your taxi. It will still be right traffic, so ensure you know which runway you're landing on. LVK has similar issues, so you should be familiar with this already.

And, yes, the 1800' pattern will mess with your timing. Expect it, and be ready to go around if you get the approach wrong. Parallel approaches by the big iron can mess with your head, too. Departures are nearly always from 28L for transient, no matter how small you are. The runup area is huge...and invisible to tower. There is a dashed line that shows the edge of their vision, in case you're wondering what that extra line is for.

The other line to worry about is the RED one. Look for it and DO NOT CROSS IT. You may not go near it on arrival, but you will on departure. Stay religiously on the taxiway...crossing the red line may net a security response. Of course, since there's a small chance you'll be playing with bigger jets, don't forget about jet blast. Ground controller will be watching for you, but keep your ears open. If a jet gets an instruction to move, make sure you know where it is and that it won't affect you.

All that said, MRY is a sleepy, easy airport. I've been there many times and it's great. Del Monte used to be the best small GA FBO there, but they've tightened up to be as restrictive as the Jet Center. 15 gallons or $45 ramp fee, they won't budge, either FBO. Del Monte is a shorter taxi and more convenient, though.

Have fun!
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I know what you're referring to with regards to the "second dashed line", but what is this "red line" you're talking about? I can't spot it from Google Maps.
 
vkhosid said:
I know what you're referring to with regards to the "second dashed line", but what is this "red line" you're talking about? I can't spot it from Google Maps.
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I think he's referring to the red line that surrounds airline ramps.
 
Palmpilot said:
I think he's referring to the red line that surrounds airline ramps.
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Yeah, that.

https://www.google.com/maps/place/M...3e7decc7732b76!8m2!3d36.588269!4d-121.8491091

https://www.google.com/maps/place/M...3e7decc7732b76!8m2!3d36.588269!4d-121.8491091

That should show the line. It's actually pretty hard to see. Also, the ground control line doubles for the red one near the taxiway, which is confusing. (Red line only matters in the non-control area, because inside the control area, you should be following instructions anyway.)
 
Hey guys, thanks for the advice thus far. The trip is scheduled for this coming saturday, with a departure for around noon. As I've mentioned before, the plan is to go direct-ish from LVK to MRY, have lunch in monterey, and then head back to Livermore up the coast to squeeze in a bay tour before the return trip home.

I've been checking weather, and the forecast doesn't look all that great. Granted, its still 5 days out, and a lot can change. However, based on current weather forecasts, how would you guys do the route? Obviously a lot of it is weather-dependent, but for the sake of expanding my knowledge and getting a 2nd, 3rd, and Nth opinion...what do you think?
 
The fog over here has been hit an miss on how far it pushes out or if it even burns off at all. Flew Monday and it was clear in the Monterey Bay but SF was fogged over. Yesterday did not burn off or push out at all.

If KWVI and KSNS are still socked in at your departure, forget about it. The SNS TAF could be a good indicator as you get closer to your date. If they are clear, go for it and see what KMRY is visually when you get there and just have a backup lunch plan like KVWI or further inland. The marine layer is only usually 1500-2000' thick so it is not like you will run into a wall of IMC enroute. Even if KMRY is socked in you may still get a great flight up the coast of the Monterey Bay. Not uncommon to have Monterey foggy and the rest of the Bay clear.
 
Yesterday was a bad day down there. Marine layer was 600-2000 at WVI (I flew the RNAV 2 to barely above LPV minimums), and it cleared out around noon and came back around 7PM. Monterey would have been worse.

You won't know well until the day before. Then, all you can do is rely on the MRY and SNS TAFs. When it clears, it can clear rapidly, but the suggestion not to depart until SNS is clear is a good one.
 
Shawn said:
The fog over here has been hit an miss on how far it pushes out or if it even burns off at all. Flew Monday and it was clear in the Monterey Bay but SF was fogged over. Yesterday did not burn off or push out at all.

If KWVI and KSNS are still socked in at your departure, forget about it. The SNS TAF could be a good indicator as you get closer to your date. If they are clear, go for it and see what KMRY is visually when you get there and just have a backup lunch plan like KVWI or further inland. The marine layer is only usually 1500-2000' thick so it is not like you will run into a wall of IMC enroute. Even if KMRY is socked in you may still get a great flight up the coast of the Monterey Bay. Not uncommon to have Monterey foggy and the rest of the Bay clear.
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MAKG1 said:
Yesterday was a bad day down there. Marine layer was 600-2000 at WVI (I flew the RNAV 2 to barely above LPV minimums), and it cleared out around noon and came back around 7PM. Monterey would have been worse.

You won't know well until the day before. Then, all you can do is rely on the MRY and SNS TAFs. When it clears, it can clear rapidly, but the suggestion not to depart until SNS is clear is a good one.
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Yeah, that kind of confirms what I was thinking. Both, in terms of what the marine layer may be like, and that you can't really know until day-of. Ideally, I'd love to go to MRY. However, should the weather not work out, any other suggestions of where to take my dad and my uncle? At first I was thinking an alternate might be Harris Ranch, but between LVK and 3O8, there's nothing to see. Definitely open to suggestions if the plan is foiled by the weather.
 
For food in conjunction with a Bay Tour head north and KSTS has a great restaurant in the terminal...just ate there again Sunday and we all left happy. It is a real restaurant, not just an airport cafe. That is my second favorite local $100 Hamburger Run location just behind KHAF

If KHAF is clear, that is another great food spot and works with the Bay Tour. You can park at the FAR south end of the field and walk through a gate to a lot of restaurants.

KWVI restaurant food is also decent although service seems to be hit or miss.
 
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STS is indeed nice (park at Jet Center, walk to the gate near the Tower). But it can see some marine layer as well. Same deal with Napa.

I'd suggest a trip to Sac Exec. The trip over the Delta is a bit different, but it's fairly scenic. You can also circuit Mt. Diablo for a good look at the beacon up there. And maybe find the lighted beacon arrows (Acalanes Ridge, a few miles west of Walnut Creek). And the restaurant at Exec is pretty good, and open for dinner (so is STS). No way you're seeing marine layer there.

The coast is very pretty, but if there is any marine layer, you won't see a damn thing.

Columbia is a good day trip, along with Yosemite (near Mariposa). But you have to cross the Central Valley to get there. Lots of places to eat at Columbia in the historic park, but there was a wildfire up there Saturday and I don't know if it has been contained. Mariposa has one restaurant near the airport and it's a bit of a walk. And more than a bit of a dump (but the food is good).
 
Damn...this weather stuff is playing ping-pong with my blood pressure....this morning forecast was for overcast in KMRY on Saturday...now, shows clear skies as of noon...

Watch, 30 minutes from now, it'll show overcast again....I can't take this rollercoaster ride of emotions... :-D
 
vkhosid said:
Watch, 30 minutes from now, it'll show overcast again....I can't take this rollercoaster ride of emotions... :-D
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...and it can burn off FAST. That is why I suggest if STS and WVI are clear at 11am when you depart, go for it even if MRY is still OVC...may very well be clear when you get there. Around here we can't count on the hourly forecast for a reliable burn off time...it is called looking out the the window!

Even if it burns off only to a 1500' OVC while it is still clearing you can still usually get under the deck to get in VFR...do that all the time at WVI...but you can only determine that visually.
 
Shawn said:
...and it can burn off FAST. That is why I suggest if STS and WVI are clear at 11am when you depart, go for it even if MRY is still OVC...may very well be clear when you get there. Around here we can't count on the hourly forecast for a reliable burn off time...it is called looking out the the window!

Even if it burns off only to a 1500' OVC while it is still clearing you can still usually get under the deck to get in VFR...do that all the time at WVI...but you can only determine that visually.
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My fear, though, is that I'll get stuck in MRY once I land, and have to make that dreaded call back to the rental office asking for someone to come out and pick me up...lol
 
vkhosid said:
My fear, though, is that I'll get stuck in MRY once I land, and have to make that dreaded call back to the rental office asking for someone to come out and pick me up...lol
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Not likely early in the afternoon. I.e., go for lunch, not dinner.

But if it really scares you, get your instrument rating! Marine layer is pretty simple IFR.

Or be prepared to stay overnight.
 
MAKG1 said:
Not likely early in the afternoon. I.e., go for lunch, not dinner.

But if it really scares you, get your instrument rating! Marine layer is pretty simple IFR.

Or be prepared to stay overnight.
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Well, like I mentioned earlier, the plan is to depart lvk at noon, arrive at mry by 1ish. Then, depart mry again around 3 and be back at lvk by about 4.

There was a bit of sarcasm there, regarding calling the rental office. Though, since I'm only VFR, I have no issues with either staying there or calling the office if the situation calls for it.
 
Forecast changed....yet again....LOL
 
Honestly, it's too far out to predict details of the marine layer. It will probably be heavier than normal for the next week or so, based on the NWS discussion. What that means in detail for the edge of the marine layer is a crapshoot. Usually, afternoons are pretty good. It's the mornings and late nights that really suck. There is a certain amount of guesswork all the time in summer.
 
MAKG1 said:
Honestly, it's too far out to predict details of the marine layer. It will probably be heavier than normal for the next week or so, based on the NWS discussion. What that means in detail for the edge of the marine layer is a crapshoot. Usually, afternoons are pretty good. It's the mornings and late nights that really suck. There is a certain amount of guesswork all the time in summer.
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Assuming I can get to KSNS with no problems, what would you say is a safe altitude to fly at if I wan'ted to sneak in under the ceiling of clouds? From looking at topographical maps, it seems like if I fly west from KSNS, elevations don't go much higher than about 500-600MSL. Or am I missing something there?
 
Safe altitude to scud run? 0 AGL in a car. I'm not kidding.

Ceilings have been 500 AGL or so. The TAF for tonight is BKN010, lowering to OVC008 later.

MRY is a towered airport, so you are SOL if they report below 1000. And it's Class C, so you have to be 500 below or get SVFR. And there is terrain under the pattern -- TPA is 1500 because of it -- so you need even more clearance.

There aren't many obstructions, but there are a few. Like the stacks at Moss Landing. But the terrain around the airport is not good for an exercise like this.

Please be careful about get-there-itis. If MRY is reporting overcast, you are not likely to be able to get in there safely, even if it's MVFR. You need at least 2000 AGL in a practical sense (though perhaps you could push it with 1500 and SVFR), but that ain't happening. Marine layer just isn't that high.

I don't think you caught the significance of an earlier comment -- I shot the RNAV 2 at WVI yesterday almost to minimums. That means it was only barely possible to get in with an instrument rating, and it was completely impossible without a WAAS GPS (the ceiling was lower than all the terrestrial approaches, as well as the looser GPS approaches).

Wait for it to clear, or don't go.
 
MAKG1 said:
Please be careful about get-there-itis. If MRY is reporting overcast, you are not likely to be able to get in there safely, even if it's MVFR. You need at least 2000 AGL in a practical sense (though perhaps you could push it with 1500 and SVFR), but that ain't happening. Marine layer just isn't that high.
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Sorry about the vague question. This was more along the lines of the answer I was hoping to get. Just to get an idea of what a decent height of the clouds would have to be to expect to be able to get in there WITHOUT having to scud run.

In other words, if i hear "ceiling overcast at 1500", that would be a sign to not even try...however, if I hear "ceiling overcast at 2500", then I can go in and it should be fine...makes sense?
 
vkhosid said:
Assuming I can get to KSNS with no problems, what would you say is a safe altitude to fly at if I wan'ted to sneak in under the ceiling of clouds?
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1500' ceilings with the field pretty much in sight is worst you wanna do and still remain a comfortable VFR safely. 2000' is a safer margin for an unfamiliar area. Defiantly don't wanna scud run from SNS as ceilings can vary and drop on ya fast.

Now if you get to Seaside however, the marine layer is burning off, ceilings are 1500-2000 at MRY and you pretty much have the field in sight...no problem. That is what I was referring to and is a common thing on the coastal airports to get in at out at 1000'-1200' AGL and still be VFR under the deck over flat terrain for a few miles even though straight up from the sensor it does not look all that great. That is also the look out the window part of the equation and not just relying only on what the forecast and AWOS is reporting.

Ceilings at 1500' with the edge of the marine layer at the filed is a whole different ballgame than 1500' all the way to SNS and WVI. If you hear the reports progressing OCV to BKN to SCT to FEW...you know things are headed in the right direction!

But like MAKG1 said...the ceilings have been typically lower so your decision will most likely be sky clear or not that will determine your decision if you continue to MRY or not.
 
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Shawn said:
1500' ceilings with the field pretty much in sight is worst you wanna do and still remain a comfortable VFR safely. 2000' is a safer margin for an unfamiliar area. Defiantly don't wanna scud run from SNS as ceilings can vary and drop on ya fast.

Now if you get to Seaside however, the marine layer is burning off, ceilings are 1500-2000 at MRY and you pretty much have the field in sight...no problem. That is what I was referring to and is a common thing on the coastal airports to get in at out at 1000'-1200' AGL and still be VFR under the deck over flat terrain for a few miles even though straight up from the sensor it does not look all that great. That is also the look out the window part of the equation and not just relying only on what the forecast and AWOS is reporting.

Ceilings at 1500' with the edge of the marine layer at the filed is a whole different ballgame than 1500' all the way to SNS and WVI. If you hear the reports progressing OCV to BKN to SCT to FEW...you know things are headed in the right direction!

But like MAKG1 said...the ceilings have been typically lower so your decision will most likely be sky clear or not that will determine your decision if you continue to MRY or not.
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Thanks!! Yea, like I said. I wasn't really looking for info/ceiling heights for scud running purposes. I was looking for info more along the lines of "if the clouds/marine layer is at xxxx feet, dont even try it. And look for a cloud height of no less than xxxx feet to attempt a relatively safe VFR approach." Makes sense?

Thanks again @Shawn and @MAKG1
 
The trouble with a 1500 foot ceiling is that where the floor of controlled airspace is 700 AGL, you can't fly any higher than 1000 AGL. That's not high enough over a congested area, because you have to be at least 1000 feet above the obstacles, not just 1000 feet above the ground. And the FAA has been quite liberal in their decisions about what constitutes a congested area.
 
For weather assessments on the day of the planned flight, I find satellite photos to be quite useful.

http://www.nrlmry.navy.mil/sat-bin/...es11.vis.x.monterey_bay.x.jpg&MOSAIC_SCALE=15

The hardest part is figuring out whether it will still be VFR when you want to come home. When the cloud deck is sitting just offshore, as it so often does, the forecasts of when it's going to come onshore are not very dependable.
 
The amusing part about that particular forecast is that NRL is physically located right outside MRY's fence, on the north side. One would hope the forecast THERE would be right on....

I once turned down a job there, back when they used to call it FNMOC.
 
Given the option, would you go LVK to MRY or LVK to 3O8? I haven't made either flight before, but just planning for options.
 
I don't think Harris Ranch is all that interesting, so it would be an easy choice for me.
 
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